The Pakistan Navy's Frigate Options

[Penguin]

@Penguin wouldnt the DK-10 (some say has ability to be quad packed) be better choice of sam in a revolver styled chinese cold launch vls or their own hot launch vls make more financial sense. Also if they couldnt fit it in (which i doubt as the fm90 sits on a platform which itself is 1 deck elevated so likely would only need to occupy the single deck below it aswell to fit a vls) the FM-3000 with 30km range would seem as good as CAMM and better than mica-vls given range and can also be quad packed, not to mention cheaper. Also given that you advise for ir guided missiles, do they have any drawbacks with respect to intercepting AShMs?

Additionally, why not simply move the vls behind the conning tower and in front of the smokestack (where it could be mostly above deck if space is an issue) and enable you to have mostly any size of vls you want. Move the c802 boxes to where the fm90 is now. You could likely get 8-12 cells there.

There's all sort of placement possibilities on F22P. Though amidships I would think depth is more limited. There are no Chinese revolver VLS (those on 052C don't rotate). Not sure the DK-10 can be quad packed as is today. Not sure if 8 cell VLU as on Type 052D is smaller than Mk41 in terms of deck area, and whether a short version is available. Not sure how FM-3000 would fit into that VLS either: who says it can be quadpacked? Is there even a naval version of SD-10 and FM-3000? And where do you get the idea that these Chinese systems would be cheap(er)?

Here's my favorite

 

[Tank131]

Regarding the "revolver style" i know it doesnt rotate..I just couldn't find the name of this vls system so describe what it looked like. Did the job cuz u knew which one i was talking about. Also the 8 cells in this system seem to take up less deck space (although tlwhat the length is we dont know, or whether it comes in multiple sizes) The lack of info on chinese systems limits much of the discussion to speculation, but various posters on sinodefence have suggested dk10 as an essm equivalent that will be used in the future by PLAN (whether there is any truth tonit i dont know but it makes sense). FM-3000 also has been mentioned on other forums as a potential naval SAM with quad-packed potential.

What we do know is that umkhonto can be fired from vls if other options are difficult to come by. Would umkhonto-r be fitted onto a vls that would fit on a c28a size vessel. And could it to be quad packed.

 

[Quwa]

Regarding the "revolver style" i know it doesnt rotate..I just couldn't find the name of this vls system so describe what it looked like. Did the job cuz u knew which one i was talking about. Also the 8 cells in this system seem to take up less deck space (although tlwhat the length is we dont know, or whether it comes in multiple sizes) The lack of info on chinese systems limits much of the discussion to speculation, but various posters on sinodefence have suggested dk10 as an essm equivalent that will be used in the future by PLAN (whether there is any truth tonit i dont know but it makes sense). FM-3000 also has been mentioned on other forums as a potential naval SAM with quad-packed potential.

What we do know is that umkhonto can be fired from vls if other options are difficult to come by. Would umkhonto-r be fitted onto a vls that would fit on a c28a size vessel. And could it to be quad packed.

I'm beginning to see a trend in the Chinese defence industry where two state-owned entities will offer competing solutions for the same problem. The DK-10 is basically NORINCO's medium-range SAM program and it is taking aim at the HQ-16, which is made by CASC.

 

[Penguin]

054A is a capable vessel, it is mass producing, which lowers the unit cost, and China is favourably inclined towards Pakistan. Decent odds.But why that, and not more of F22P, or a modification thereof?

Huitfeldt: may actually come out more expensive. Otherwise a great ship. What is the need for a ship this size?

 

[Quwa]

054A is a capable vessel, it is mass producing, which lowers the unit cost, and China is favourably inclined towards Pakistan. Decent odds.But why that, and not more of F22P, or a modification thereof?

Huitfeldt: may actually come out more expensive. Otherwise a great ship. What is the need for a ship this size?

Might prefer a new design with VLS of varying sizes, enough for medium to long-range SAM, CY-5 VL-ASROC, and LACM.

 

[Tank131]

I think if you look at the c28a, sa'ar5, and Hamina FAC you start to get an idea of what type of ship Pakistan should angle for. While the current varient of F-22P is suitable in size, it is not in capabilities. The much smaller Hamina (less than 1/10th the sizeat 250t) is as capable in most respects except number of AShM (4 vs 8). But it has a 12km fire and forget SAM as well. The design of the C28a shows what what a newer "f-23p" could look like. The Sa'ar 5 shows that a vessel half the size of f-22p can carry 16 medium range sams then with the right layout a larger 3000t vessel like f-22p/f-23p should be able to do better. What i have learned looking at numerous of these smaller ships like the Sa'ar and Hamina is that chinese layouts have a lot of wasted space. They made a big advancement between f-22p and c28a just by moving the exhaust stacks to vent the exhaust near the waterline. This adds surface area above deck to use for equipment but adds to improved stealth by decreased ir signature.

Pakistan should redesign the F-22P for its future frigate for a number of reasons. Firstly it knows and operates the type and has already built it in house so it has the building experience and it is inexpensive than a brand new desing. The updated c28a should be the skeleton upon which to build. The deck in front of the bridge is a waste of space and should be eliminated to allow for a 16-24 cell vls which would for sure fit in that area, given one fits in a smaller area on sa'ar5. Hopefully a sylver a50 or something equivalent. If it doesnt house the entirety of the unit flush with the deck it is not a huge issue if it sits partly above deck, as do the vls units on Sa'ar 5, Type-23, and the Adelaide/G-class frigates. The C-802 in PN inventories should be replaced by C-802AKG (280KM range) and the boxes moved from their current location to be housed in the current aircraft hangar area, slightly in front of the location the Type 730 ciws (in other words, below the type 730 ciws but slightly more forward, at the front of the aircraft hanger) and should be hidden behind doors that open when readying to fire. This will improve the stealth capabilities of the ship. If the ship needs to be slightly lengthened for this change i would do it for the offset benefit of stealth and more weapons (i doubt it would be needed give the space save on c28a from eliminating the smokestack). The area that currently houses the C-802 should then house either a second 8 cell VLS unit if possible (more flush with the deck) or, if not possible for another VLS, then two 24 cell FL-3000N launcher (one facing either side). Place SMART-S mk 2 and a type 364 radars on board and try to get CAMM/SeaCeptor as the SAM. Keep the current gun (maybe a stealthier housing) and the rdc-32 anti-sub rockets and Z-9C If done that would give this vessel tremendous firepower. In addition to the the considerable Antiship capabilities with C802akg and Z-9 the vessel would retain strong Antisub capabilities via Z-9C, 6 torpedo tubes, and 12 RDC-32 Rockets. However in this setup it would gain tremendous Antiair capabilities with 96-128 medium range sams (if 16-24 +8 midship cells are installed and CAMM is acquired) or 64-96 medium range sams and 48 short range sams (if FL-3000N) is installed. If CAMM is not available, go for a mix of quad-packed umkhonto-er-ir (or ir block 2 which have a range out to 30km) and umkhonto-r (60km). Both are fire and forget.

 

[_NOBODY_]

If PN went for a NATO frigate then are there any chances of PN getting Aster 15/30 for these frigates?
@Quwa @Bilal Khan 777

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

If PN went for a NATO frigate then are there are any chances of PN getting Aster 15/30 for these frigates?
@Quwa @Bilal Khan 777

The next ship for PN would likely be Milgem, and not a Chinese vessel.

 

[Tank131]

The next ship for PN would likely be Milgem, and not a Chinese vessel.

Lets hope that PN finally gets some respectable air defense on this ship. The RAM is not sufficient. It needs to have 24-32 medium range SAMsin addition to the RAM launcher.

Issue is that ESSM and Harpoon may not be an ideal solution for PN give US supplier, but perhaps Turkey can work with China or South Africa untils own missiles are ready.

 

[monitor]

The next ship for PN would likely be Milgem, and not a Chinese vessel.

Milgem is a corvette probably Istanbul class frigate based on milgem.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

The next ship for PN would likely be Milgem, and not a Chinese vessel.

I hope it is the MILGEM-G. It is basically the same ship, but with a slightly extended hull to make room for vertical launch system. Would be a good improvement for our naval air defence environment, or at least go a step towards achieving it.

Lets hope that PN finally gets some respectable air defense on this ship. The RAM is not sufficient. It needs to have 24-32 medium range SAMsin addition to the RAM launcher.

Issue is that ESSM and Harpoon may not be an ideal solution for PN give US supplier, but perhaps Turkey can work with China or South Africa untils own missiles are ready.

The Umkhonto EIR (30km) is a real factor, it's under development. Not sure of ETA, but the PN's MILGEM or surface warship aspirations is a question of years anyways.

 

[Super Falcon]

We need powerful destroyers

 

[SSGcommandoPAK]

This

 

[Hassan Guy]

Just produce them locally.

 

[cabatli_53]

Lets hope that PN finally gets some respectable air defense on this ship. The RAM is not sufficient. It needs to have 24-32 medium range SAMsin addition to the RAM launcher.

Issue is that ESSM and Harpoon may not be an ideal solution for PN give US supplier, but perhaps Turkey can work with China or South Africa untils own missiles are ready.

I think Pakistan will acquire a modified Istanbul class frigate with VLS. I am just predicting a time scale like following;

Signature ceremony in IDEF 2017 in May 2017.
Tech transfer/First block productions and Keel laying Ceremony in Karachi: ~ Sep/Oct 2017
Launching on Sea: ~Dec 2018
Commission to Navy: ~ August/Sep 2019

Until this date: (If they goes well)

Atmaca anti-ship missile serial production will have been commenced.
Hisar-A SAM development will have been either completed or near to compilation.
Hisar-O SAM prototypes will have been on field for extensive trials.
Tork torpedo active protection torpedo will have already been inducted into service.
Korkut 35mm CIWS will have already been inducted into service.
TF-2000 destroyer production will have been commenced.