The Outsider:Jaswant Singh & Gen.Musharrff on India-Pakistan Relations

[PakShah]

With this attitude Kashmir issue will never be solved.Both sides have to make compromises.If you don't have the mentality for that then don't talk about it.

lol don;t talk a bout the Kashmir dispute if you dont want to solve it according to just and moral principles. Something that every person believes in.

 

[PakShah]

4500 troops dead is forgotten????
India is beating the drums of some 160 people for the past five years.. and you are willing to forget 4500 deaths?
India has taken hundreds of security officials to task for letting a few young men who did not cost more than a $100000 to train and has taken measures to make sure it does not happen again.. it has gone beyond paranoia and obsession(which is a little loony.. understandable but loony).
And you arent even willing to hold people accountable for 4500 of your fathers/sons/brothers?? Who were abandoned to be massacred by the enemy?

Why do you think you are in this mess Mr Intellectual? its because you never hold any lessons to heart.
Its easy to dismiss Musharraf as a liar, Yahya as a womanizer.. ..but it takes courage, it takes humility, it takes HUMANITY.. to admit to a mistake like sending Soldiers on a suicide mission, or pushing the genocide of your own countrymen as an order upon your troops.

You cannot have peace with India tomorrow,a lot of their public and all of their media is like a rabid dog(pardon the analogy..not meant for disrespect) when it comes to Pakistan and everything bad about it.
On the flipside, the Pakistani public has been fed trash upon trash, rhetoric upon rhetoric about Hindu India and its evil designs..
And that mutual hatred, the need to have the better hand, the better gun than each other has pushed billions of dollars.. and I mean BILLIONS of dollars of money from their coffers to the supplies in the east and west.
Money that when spent at critical times, NOW.. would help alleviate problems A LOT FASTER even if they have acceptable budget goals for it. If fixing poverty in India will take ten years, it could take eight with that money.
If promoting education in Pakistan was to take 25 years it could take twenty..

Heck let India go ahead and buy more weapons, and we can buy ours.. the trade alone would add enough money to our coffers and theirs that it would allow for that amount to spend on both weapons and money as long as there was assurance that there were no unfinished issues between us that would incite problems.
Let there be old grudges, and we can keep the arms focused still.. but still keep them at levels that would ensure defense but not be an undue burden.. it would keep suspicions.. but not paranoia.
Moreover, with all that immediate worry gone.. there would be lesser justification for us to bow down to the US and anybody else's demands on any moves they make for the resources in this region.

The intellectuals on both sides like Jaswant Singh recognized that and knew that.
They recognize that while our differences may not end at once, unless we begin ending them.. we will be exploited by these external powers just as they have done to us since they set foot on "OUR" soil some 500 years ago.

Its our problem, we will solve it our way. We fight, we talk, we bicker.. but we do not need therapy from the proverbial Hannibal lecters of the world.

I'm sure lessons was learned from the Kargil escapade. I'm just saying people have moved on now since Kargil,

Why is Pakistan in the mess it is today? Well, its because Pakistan is weak, we have weak leadership, our neighbor Afghanistan is destabilized at the moment.

As soon as Afghanistan is stable Insh'Allah, things will start to go right for Pakistan.

Global war on Terrorism is coming to an end now, and the just and moral resolution of the Kashmir dispute is right around the corner.

I know the conflict between Pakistan India only helps outsiders.

The same thing can be said about the conflict Japan has with Russia , China, and South Korea over some land.

What to do. The UN is a failure. It failed to solve issues according to just and moral principles.

Anyways lets see what happens next. Interesting times are coming ahead as NATO is leaving Afghanistan soon.

 

[FarazUSA]

4500 troops dead is forgotten????
India is beating the drums of some 160 people for the past five years.. and you are willing to forget 4500 deaths?
India has taken hundreds of security officials to task for letting a few young men who did not cost more than a $100000 to train and has taken measures to make sure it does not happen again.. it has gone beyond paranoia and obsession(which is a little loony.. understandable but loony).
And you arent even willing to hold people accountable for 4500 of your fathers/sons/brothers?? Who were abandoned to be massacred by the enemy?

Why do you think you are in this mess Mr Intellectual? its because you never hold any lessons to heart.
Its easy to dismiss Musharraf as a liar, Yahya as a womanizer.. ..but it takes courage, it takes humility, it takes HUMANITY.. to admit to a mistake like sending Soldiers on a suicide mission, or pushing the genocide of your own countrymen as an order upon your troops.

You cannot have peace with India tomorrow,a lot of their public and all of their media is like a rabid dog(pardon the analogy..not meant for disrespect) when it comes to Pakistan and everything bad about it.
On the flipside, the Pakistani public has been fed trash upon trash, rhetoric upon rhetoric about Hindu India and its evil designs..
And that mutual hatred, the need to have the better hand, the better gun than each other has pushed billions of dollars.. and I mean BILLIONS of dollars of money from their coffers to the supplies in the east and west.
Money that when spent at critical times, NOW.. would help alleviate problems A LOT FASTER even if they have acceptable budget goals for it. If fixing poverty in India will take ten years, it could take eight with that money.
If promoting education in Pakistan was to take 25 years it could take twenty..

Heck let India go ahead and buy more weapons, and we can buy ours.. the trade alone would add enough money to our coffers and theirs that it would allow for that amount to spend on both weapons and money as long as there was assurance that there were no unfinished issues between us that would incite problems.

And what about Kashmir, do all of you think Kashmiris are stupid to let go of a struggle.. they just found a better way.. and this is not an assessment based on propaganda from either side its based on the testaments of Kashmiris.
Right now, their focus is on making their lives better.. and getting more freedom.
If they cannot have independence then they will try for greater autonomy and they know they can force even the Indian puppets to push for it. There is still support for the movement in Kashmir and its widespread.. and the movement and those young men that hold its banner today have moved on from Guns and Grenades.. they see the solution as education , as taking over all power reins from external forces within the government they have now.. and raising the issue through the world WITHOUT an India or Pakistan speaking for them.
And it is working, even within India.. and outside of it. Pakistan is no longer needed to wave the banner and breed cobra's to strike...although those snakes are coming back for us..

Let there be old grudges, and we can keep the arms focused still.. but still keep them at levels that would ensure defense but not be an undue burden.. it would keep suspicions.. but not paranoia.
Moreover, with all that immediate worry gone.. there would be lesser justification for us to bow down to the US and anybody else's demands on any moves they make for the resources in this region.

The intellectuals on both sides like Jaswant Singh recognized that and knew that.
They recognize that while our differences may not end at once, unless we begin ending them.. we will be exploited by these external powers just as they have done to us since they set foot on "OUR" soil some 500 years ago.

Its our problem, we will solve it our way. We fight, we talk, we bicker.. but we do not need therapy from the proverbial Hannibal lecters of the world.

Probably the best post of this whole discussion.
Kashmiris do not need us for their movement. If we
still support militancy, India will always have the stronger stance of accusing
us of state sponsored terrorism. I kinda like Tibetans who give up their own
lives rather than taking others for the cause of their freedom.

 

[SQ8]

I'm sure lessons was learned from the Kargil escapade. I'm just saying people have moved on now since Kargil,

Why is Pakistan in the mess it is today? Well, its because Pakistan is weak, we have weak leadership, our neighbor Afghanistan is destabilized at the moment.

As soon as Afghanistan is stable Insh'Allah, things will start to go right for Pakistan.

Global war on Terrorism is coming to an end now, and the just and moral resolution of the Kashmir dispute is right around the corner.

I know the conflict between Pakistan India only helps outsiders.

The same thing can be said about the conflict Japan has with Russia , China, and South Korea over some land.

What to do. The UN is a failure. It failed to solve issues according to just and moral principles.

Anyways lets see what happens next. Interesting times are coming ahead as NATO is leaving Afghanistan soon.

Bhai Sahab, does it even look as if its going even remotely that way???

Where is the strong leadership of Pakistan that will change that when there ARENT even Pakistanis left as such.
There are Sindhis, Balochis, PUnjabis, Pathans, Mohajirs, Seraikis, Hazaras, Sunnis, Shais, Barelivis, Deobandis etc etc
How does one expect national leadership to emerge when there isnt a nation anymore.
The most loud:
Pathans consider themselves the original Pakistanis and would throw Urdu speakers into the sea..
Punjabis consider themselves as the original Pakistanis and would throw Sindhis and Balochis into the dungeon.
Sindhis consider themselves Sindhis and maybe perhaps Pakistanis and would throw Punjabis out the Urdu Speakers to the sea.
Balochis consider themselves as Balochis and want nothing to do with Pakistan anymore.
Urdu-Speakers consider everybody else trying to throw them into the sea and decide its best to kill everybody else in Karachi.
I dont even know what the Serakis and hazaras want..
Oh , and then the Sunnis have issues with the Shia's... and so on and so forth.

The so called "Silent" Pakistani Majority only cares about "roti,kapra and makaan" for the next day...
Afghanistan/ NATO/ Taliban are ideologically insignificant to them until one of them can provide the aforementioned items and they will support them... or rather whatever is suggested by the Pseudo intellectuals in our country during the 8 and 10 o clock talk shows.

So how will these people do ANYTHING to change for the better .. unless. unless.. a calamity.. a calamity of proportions that would make the 2005 earthquake and 2010 floods seem like a bathroom leak takes place that shakes them from inside out and unites them in sorrow..
Or the proverbial M.A Jinnah is born ..
There is literally no hope for the people... and whatever intellectual minority that actually exists can only stand by and watch as the Pakistanis consume their favorite meals of conspiracy and make-believe.. and Lies
Lies that are said so eloquently, and so repetitively that even if they are debunked a ten times.. repetition for a hundred times makes them the truth.
Education would have fixed it, there is none..
exposure, freedom to explore their religion without being imposed upon.. freedom to explore the richness of their culture from Torkham to Wagah, Muzaffarabad to Kashmir...
But when one who has seen all that, and still finds the majority of his countrymen involved in petty bickering.. is only disheartened with them.. and only sees prayer as the solution now.

So I see little change for Pakistan for the next five years.. even if NATO magically decides to abandon the trillion dollar mineral mine that is Afghanistan without ensuring a supply line from it.

Peace with India would have allowed us to focus on tackling NATO and throwing them out, because today they are the greatest threat.. par a hundred times.. that India.. someone we fought with.. and generally still maintained to give a respectable account of with.. is.

 

[Sashan]

I disagree with the political suicide. Just solve the Kashmir dispute according to just and moral principles.

Its really all that simple. No need to use the "might is right" philosophy because that is a savage philosophy which leads to never ending conflicts.

It is ofcourse a political suicide for either one of the leaders.

Here are some of the questions to be answered.


1. Will the plebisite be for only Kashmir valley? or does it include Jammu,Indian Kashmir,Pakistani Kashmir, Gilgit–Baltistan etc - not to mention the Akshai Chin and Trans-Karakoram region?
2. If so, to facilitate the plebisite will UN forces will be in all these regions? Will Pakistan accept to remove the forces from its part of Kashmir or will India?
3. Will China accede to Akshai Chin being part of new Kashmir country? Mind it - Akshai Chin is crucial to China to link the Xinjiang to West Tibet and China has always claimed Akshai Chin.
4. India is formed on the principle that no single religion will be state religion - This happened even after Jinnah got an Islamic Pakistan - What would happen to the rest of the Indian muslims if Kashmiris vote for an independent country - The right wing hindu parties will get strengthened and that will be the end of any secular opposition even if it is a facade(my personal opinion)
5. What about the Kashmiri Pandits resettlement and voting of the newer generation Pandits who were born and raised outside Kashmir? Will the Hurriyat accept these people as natives of Kashmir?
6. What about the people from Pakistan mainland who are settled in Pakistani Kashmir?
7. What about the Gilgit-Baltistan people who want more integration to Pakistan?
8. What about Pakistani people who want Kashmir to be part of their country?

So there are so many questions raised which will be difficult for the leaders to answer. And there is no question of might is right here.

Even for FDI in retail, the government had to pull its political might to get the approval in parliament. Who will attempt this in Indian parliament. With Pakistan, which leader will dare to take on PA or the non-state players?

 

[MilSpec]

Pakistan is not afraid of doing a Plebiscite in Kashmir. Only India doesn't want to live up to what Nehru said about right of Kashmiris.

...............................Bluh Blah Blabla buh

Education
http://www.defence.pk/forums/centra...lebiscite-un-security-council-resolution.html

 

[Irfan Baloch]

thanks for your questions and please find my opinion / response accordingly

It is ofcourse a political suicide for either one of the leaders.

Here are some of the questions to be answered.

1. Will the plebisite be for only Kashmir valley? or does it include Jammu,Indian Kashmir,Pakistani Kashmir, Gilgit–Baltistan etc - not to mention the Akshai Chin and Trans-Karakoram region?

should be for all Kashmir region, whatever was defined as Jammu & Kashmir at the time of Partition.

2. If so, to facilitate the plebisite will UN forces will be in all these regions? Will Pakistan accept to remove the forces from its part of Kashmir or will India?

Yes, if both India & Pakistan agree to abide by the UN resolution & there are UN observers or forces there then both will need to do what the UN says otherwise this exercise will fail. neither India or Pakistan will unilaterally move out its forces.

3. Will China accede to Akshai Chin being part of new Kashmir country? Mind it - Akshai Chin is crucial to China to link the Xinjiang to West Tibet and China has always claimed Akshai Chin.

thats a tough question, for the sake of the regional stability and a peaceful resolution, I hope so too. but with yet another entity in this equation, it will only complicate things. I am not too sure if China will be more enthusiastic than either India or Pakistan.

4. India is formed on the principle that no single religion will be state religion - This happened even after Jinnah got an Islamic Pakistan - What would happen to the rest of the Indian muslims if Kashmiris vote for an independent country - The right wing hindu parties will get strengthened and that will be the end of any secular opposition even if it is a facade(my personal opinion)

a valid and a sobering point, and I agree. all other extremist parties will use this as an excuse. Muslim extremists forget that its not always a one way traffic there are always repercussions and normally its the innocent Muslims who take the brunt.

5. What about the Kashmiri Pandits resettlement and voting of the newer generation Pandits who were born and raised outside Kashmir? Will the Hurriyat accept these people as natives of Kashmir?

Kashmiri Pundists have as much right to Kashmir as any other Kashmir has. the freedom fighters would do themselves a favour by giving support and confidence that the rights of the Pundits will be as respected and honoured as would be for any other Kashmiri.

6. What about the people from Pakistan mainland who are settled in Pakistani Kashmir?

same as the Indians settled in Kashmir and specially Jammu. the rule must be the same, if one side stays then the other should too, if the recent settlers has to go from one side then so should the other side (that shows how complex the situation is). but it should be their own choice if they want to stay where they are whether Kashmir becomes an Independent country or stays as it is. the only argument will be their right to vote which should be restricted to the Kashmiri natives (again open to interposition).

7. What about the Gilgit-Baltistan people who want more integration to Pakistan?

thats a repeat of question 1 and answer is the same, Jammu is now Hindu majority part as far as I know and they might not be that keen to seek independence from India. Gilgit / baltistan likewise might stay with Pakistan or seek independence as well on the bases of the main question of Kashmir.

8. What about Pakistani people who want Kashmir to be part of their country?

what about the people of India who want entire (pakistani Kashmir includes) to be part of India? if both countries agree to honour the rights of Kashmiri people then it will be the duty of the leadership to convince their respective people to respect the rights of kashmiris and accept them as their new friendly neighbours (remember that they are not going to teleport out into Atlantis Kashmir and Kashmrisi will still be there where they are).

So there are so many questions raised which will be difficult for the leaders to answer. And there is no question of might is right here.

Even for FDI in retail, the government had to pull its political might to get the approval in parliament. Who will attempt this in Indian parliament. With Pakistan, which leader will dare to take on PA or the non-state players?

valid questions and like you have heard many times from both ex Indian and Pakistani FMs and leaders that both India and Pakistan have approached a solution in principle and Gen Musharraf (COAS of PA) had lead this drive last time so PA is not going to be a hurdle, can you say the same about Indian military?

in short, it will be down to the political leadership on both sides to sell it to the public and be sincere about it. the non state players and trouble makers will fade away when both states will chase them and beat them off and when people in general will accept the solution.

maybe not now but give it few generations we will eventually learn that it might be more beneficial to cooperate and accept each other rather than keep on enriching Western weapon producers.

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

@ IrfanBaloch , Jammu has always been Hindu majority sir.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

@ IrfanBaloch , Jammu has always been Hindu majority sir.

thanks for your input

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

thanks for your input

Your Welcome Sir

 

[Vicar]

Watch this video gentleman

IQ2 Discussion "Pakistan: what next?" (7 of 12) - YouTube

 

[hunter_hunted]

Some times Indian Politician surprise even us.

Before this video we did not know Jaswant Singh was such a class of debater.

I also become fan of Gen Musharraf with his frank and hard hitting style of handling debate.

I see a tinge of respect for Jaswant Singh in eyes of Mushrraf in the last part of video, How many of you agree with me ?

P.S. when I was looking at video, I realize that we are few idiots which fights on this forum like a cat and dog while our leaders talk with each other with so much of respect.

Yes one could clearly see the respect the support Mr. Jaswant singh gave. Especially condemning the drone strikes. Phuck u brits

 

[Sugarcane]

IMO, Jaswant Singh did better than coward arrogant commando. When host asked general to rate himself, he said "I will rate myself higher" on other hand Jaswant Singh's answer was the answer what you can expect from an intellectual.On most of the cases general wasn't able to answer properly. +5 for Mr. Jaswant, -10 for Musharaf.

 

[OrionHunter]

lol let us not go here in circles.

Accepting the status quo is an injustice to the Kashmiris and Pakistan.

Keep creating problem if thats want you want.

In other words, a 'just solution' for you would be that India hands over the entire state of Jammu and Kashmir to Pakistan on a silver platter! Get real. That's never going to happen in a billion years.

However, Mush had proposed a solution that was generally accepted by India way back in 2007. He mentioned this in the video. Probably that's the only way forward in the present situation.

 

[DesiGuy]

this seems more of like interrogating than interviewing.. lol