What's new

The origins of tribes across Pakistan and Hindustan

ok bai ji. At personal level, I hate caste system. We should all be judged by deeds not who our ancestors were..
You are right. Its good to know where you come from and getting knowledge about all your identities and past history but its our action and how we deal others which matter most in present life rather than who were your ancestors and what they have done centuries ago
 
. .
No problem. When did your grandparents 'migrate' from Kashmir?

Mine were forced out in 1947 by the Dogra regime and witnessed more than half of the family die.

Migration, I believe, was in 30's. To the Jehlum/Gujrat side. His two brothers moved as well. Lots of Kasmiris moved to the area between Jehlum and Chanab rivers.

Where in Pakistan did your side move to?
 
.
We are Jatt. Someone also once said our background is Bhatti, but i don't know the first thing about it. Historically our family were herdsman who then settled in Kashmir and became farmers. We might have come from punjab originally. Most of us are a beige-light brown colour, not pale like pathan or anything like that.
 
.
We are Jatt. Someone also once said our background is Bhatti, but i don't know the first thing about it. Historically our family were herdsman who then settled in Kashmir and became farmers. We might have come from punjab originally. Most of us are a beige-light brown colour, not pale like pathan or anything like that.

Some bhattis claim rajput background while some claim jatt. Not sure about the truth but have seen both.
 
.
Some bhattis claim rajput background while some claim jatt. Not sure about the truth but have seen both.

I don't even know who/what they are.

I do know we have ancestoral relatives over in the potwar area too.
 
.
This isn't really caste system. It's tribal/baradari system. We don't kiss Brahmin *** nor do we believe in Shudras or Pudras.
You have no idea, how much I hate Brahmins in general, and you reckon a Jatt will ever kiss a Brahmin arse. That said, one of my besties is a Brahmin and and he is more Jatt than real Jatts.
I agree with you on the caste note, not the right adjective to use as this thread is about tribes. My intent of using the caste was a metaphore for surname. In general speak in India, caste is used for surname, and not the actual caste such as Jatt, Banya, Brahmin etc..
 
.
You have no idea, how much I hate Brahmins in general, and you reckon a Jatt will ever kiss a Brahmin arse. That said, one of my besties is a Brahmin and and he is more Jatt than real Jatts.
I agree with you on the caste note, not the right adjective to use as this thread is about tribes. My intent of using the caste was a metaphore for surname. In general speak in India, caste is used for surname, and not the actual caste such as Jatt, Banya, Brahmin etc..
Yes, the tribes of the Indus have always resisted casteism and brahmanism. Jatts especially have been known for this (atleast in Pakistan), hence why many of them avoided Hinduism and turned to religions such as Islam and Sikhism and even Buddhism in ancient times. Those who were even considered Hindus practiced a type of ancestor worship with some Hindu customs. Jatts were heavily persecuted by the Brahmin dynasty of Chach of Alor and Raja Dahir when they came to power by murdering the rightful Buddhist king.
 
.
Good to know a little bit about Jatt history. I always thought we were offshoots of Rajputs with whom we share so many traits also. Do Pakistani/Muslim Jatts visit Jatheras (our elders, we remember them on yearly basis) also?
 
.
Good to know a little bit about Jatt history. I always thought we were offshoots of Rajputs with whom we share so many traits also. Do Pakistani/Muslim Jatts visit Jatheras (our elders, we remember them on yearly basis) also?

Jatts, Rajputs and Gujjars are closely related from what I've read, suggesting a common ethnic origin:


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3163234
 
.
That doesn't sound right... Gujjars are agreed to be either of Iranian or Turkish descent.

Anyway, I'm the same (Gujjar Khatana, well mostly anyway, haven't got a clue about my genetics though).

Are the results anymore specific?

Interesting, and at first blush, a contradiction: First, the historical mainstream view, unsubstantiated by the kind of scientific and physical evidence that archaeology or genetic analysis brings to the discussion, used to be that Gujjars and Rajputs are both, separately, descendants of the Scythian-Pahlavi tribes who were driven to Sakasthan (latter day, and present Seistan) and conquered and ruled most of western India for a period. They were later subjugated by the Kushans (who had driven them from their homelands in the first place) but ruled as more or less independent rulers paying tribute to the central imperial authority.

Second, there must inevitably have been considerable intermarriage with the local inhabitants at the time of their incursion. That could lead to different lineages among people of the same endogamous group.

This could explain both the reputed origin as well as the contradictory DNA. Incidentally, if more and more individuals get themselves tested, and it appears that the majority are descended from local inhabitants and had nothing to do with the Saka-Pahlava, the historians will be forced to revise their thinking and re-write their books.
 
.
Interesting, and at first blush, a contradiction: First, the historical mainstream view, unsubstantiated by the kind of scientific and physical evidence that archaeology or genetic analysis brings to the discussion, used to be that Gujjars and Rajputs are both, separately, descendants of the Scythian-Pahlavi tribes who were driven to Sakasthan (latter day, and present Seistan) and conquered and ruled most of western India for a period. They were later subjugated by the Kushans (who had driven them from their homelands in the first place) but ruled as more or less independent rulers paying tribute to the central imperial authority.

Second, there must inevitably have been considerable intermarriage with the local inhabitants at the time of their incursion. That could lead to different lineages among people of the same endogamous group.

This could explain both the reputed origin as well as the contradictory DNA. Incidentally, if more and more individuals get themselves tested, and it appears that the majority are descended from local inhabitants and had nothing to do with the Saka-Pahlava, the historians will be forced to revise their thinking and re-write their books.
Please note when I say Iranian I mean language wise, as Scythians spoke an eastern Iranian language.

Same with Turkish, Khazars spoke a Turkish language.
 
.
Interesting, and at first blush, a contradiction: First, the historical mainstream view, unsubstantiated by the kind of scientific and physical evidence that archaeology or genetic analysis brings to the discussion, used to be that Gujjars and Rajputs are both, separately, descendants of the Scythian-Pahlavi tribes who were driven to Sakasthan (latter day, and present Seistan) and conquered and ruled most of western India for a period. They were later subjugated by the Kushans (who had driven them from their homelands in the first place) but ruled as more or less independent rulers paying tribute to the central imperial authority.

Second, there must inevitably have been considerable intermarriage with the local inhabitants at the time of their incursion. That could lead to different lineages among people of the same endogamous group.

This could explain both the reputed origin as well as the contradictory DNA. Incidentally, if more and more individuals get themselves tested, and it appears that the majority are descended from local inhabitants and had nothing to do with the Saka-Pahlava, the historians will be forced to revise their thinking and re-write their books.

I think the the pastoral Gujjars of Northern Pakistan and India would have much different results as compared to the Punjab and Northern India.
 
.
Please note when I say Iranian I mean language wise, as Scythians spoke an eastern Iranian language.

Same with Turkish, Khazars spoke a Turkish language.

Then you are bang-on accurate. Thanks for the clarification, but I didn't have a problem with it in the first place, and had interpreted it exactly as you had wanted.

I think the the pastoral Gujjars of the Northern Pakistan and and India would have much different results as compared to the Punjab and Northern India.

I met two sets of Gujjars, one being the settled pastoralists, the other Van Gujjars - fascinating people, wandering nomads (shepherds) even today. I have some pictures of their settlements which I will try to upload. Utterly romantic, but callously neglected.

I am not sure why there would be different results with Punjab and northern India (that's mainly Haryana, which was always part of Punjab, and Rajasthan, and some parts of MP and UP). Why do you think that?
 
.
Then you are bang-on accurate. Thanks for the clarification, but I didn't have a problem with it in the first place, and had interpreted it exactly as you had wanted.



I met two sets of Gujjars, one being the settled pastoralists, the other Van Gujjars - fascinating people, wandering nomads (shepherds) even today. I have some pictures of their settlements which I will try to upload. Utterly romantic, but callously neglected.

I am not sure why there would be different results with Punjab and northern India (that's mainly Haryana, which was always part of Punjab, and Rajasthan, and some parts of MP and UP). Why do you think that?

I just assumed that the nomadic or pastoral gujjars would not be as mixed due to a more isolated environment as compared to the ones in the south.
 
.
Back
Top Bottom