The Burning South - Live Simulation Thread

[SQ8]

Plenty of lessons for an amateur like me. I'll list them down here someday once we are over with the exercise....or...i was thinking that i would keep on posting them regularly so that they are not lose in the sands of time.

Otherwise the context gets lost as it does for me.
There are still phantom losses I have no idea when they occurred because the logs are plenty but disjointed and missing stuff

 

[PanzerKiel]

Otherwise the context gets lost as it does for me.
There are still phantom losses I have no idea when they occurred because the logs are plenty but disjointed and missing stuff

I can derive military lessons from those phantom losses as well, if you can share the details. It what i do for a living, afterall.

 

[CriticalThought]

The apparent efficacy of SAM systems reflects a lack of expertise in 5th gen aerial warfare techniques by both side. Do keep in mind that 5th gen planes make the employment of 5th gen techniques easier, but the same can be employed using older gen equipment.

If SAMs aren't being taken out comprehensively in the first 24 hours, it reflects a failure of the space command as well. But I highly doubt this 'game' is accounting for space commands. I take these results with a mountain of salt.

Finally, the snarky, sneaky characters that are Indians will never display their full abilities in a public forum. If anything, they will be listening with Ferengi ears and taking lessons while doing the bare minimum needed to avoid suspicion.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Finally, the snarky, sneaky characters that are Indians will never display their full abilities in a public forum. If anything, they will be listening with Ferengi ears and taking lessons while doing the bare minimum needed to avoid suspicion.

What was that about?

 

[SQ8]

I can derive military lessons from those phantom losses as well, if you can share the details. It what i do for a living, afterall.

The apparent efficacy of SAM systems reflects a lack of expertise in 5th gen aerial warfare techniques by both side. Do keep in mind that 5th gen planes make the employment of 5th gen techniques easier, but the same can be employed using older gen equipment.

If SAMs aren't being taken out comprehensively in the first 24 hours, it reflects a failure of the space command as well. But I highly doubt this 'game' is accounting for space commands. I take these results with a mountain of salt.

Finally, the snarky, sneaky characters that are Indians will never display their full abilities in a public forum. If anything, they will be listening with Ferengi ears and taking lessons while doing the bare minimum needed to avoid suspicion.

What do you have to say for yourself @Desert Fox 1 ??!!

What was that about?

Apparently you are sneaky.. among other things

 

[Joe Shearer]

Haven't cleared this with Meghdut, but a journalistic account of events so far, from an Indian perspective, would look like this:

1. Initial strikes on Pakistani bases were selective, but were in line with older practice, not what has been in evidence in recent encounters elsewhere in the world.
2. Manned aircraft were used in these strikes, against a defence fully armed and ready, and the result was that the first wave of attacks was very expensive in terms of aircraft. Details were mentioned at the time, can be reproduced once one or the other of us has time (I have rather difficult medical engagements, and am not actually involved in day to day operations).
3. Subsequently, there has been a shift in focus to using missiles and UAVs. Here, too, the shift was a reaction; the use of missiles has escalated rapidly, and even dual-use strategic or HE missiles have been used. The missiles ranged in the 200 kms range have done the most damage.
4. In Air Defence, the Chinese S-300 derivatives have been very effective, and while their use caused heavy damage to the manned aircraft, and to UAVs used, they also encouraged the Indian commanders to use long-range missiles with conventional war-heads. The air war has been favourable to India, as is inevitable in any war of attrition.
5. On the naval front, due to an error, a flotilla of vessels was moored in a vulnerable location, and was severely damaged by shore-based anti-shipping missiles. The remainder of that formation was pulled back to a safer, more distant location.
6. Several submarines have also been lost, and the reasons for their loss is not yet clear.
7. On the land forces side, there is yet nothing to report.
8. Only 12 hours have passed. Nothing significant can be concluded so early. However, Some preliminary conclusions are emerging:
   1. In the air, the emphasis is on cruise missiles, UAVs and stand-off missiles, as delivery vehicles; manned aircraft should not be deployed at an early stage.
   2. The emphasis of targetting remains Air Defence and Electronic Warfare locations, followed by Airfields and Aircraft.
   3. Submarine patrols have achieved disappointing results. It is not clear why they have not scored.

More on there being more to write about.

Apparently you are sneaky.. among other things

Utterly amazing deep insights! How can such an analytical approach come anything lower than second place?

 

[Raja Porus]

What do you have to say for yourself @Desert Fox 1 ??!!

Yes, he's right. But we don't have 5th gen planes. Moreover most of the PAF planes were lost due to poor employment resulting from my own faults in giving orders clearly as well as misinterpretations in their implementation.

 

[CriticalThought]

Yes, he's right. But we don't have 5th gen planes. Moreover most of the PAF planes were lost due to poor employment resulting from my own faults in giving orders clearly as well as misinterpretations in their implementation.

You don't need 5th gen planes.

Dealing with LRSAM:

Military Simulation - The Indo-Pak conflict - A hyperbole

So , what has happened by the introduction of these assets is that aircraft will have to fly much lower so reducing their effective combat radius and loiter time. They will have to carry severe jammers otherwise most of the border airspace on the Indian side and half of Pakistani airspace is...

defence.pk

Fifth gen warfare:

Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

Even on target drones as mentioned earlier by a poster you dont use established AAMs but try out newer missiles during testing. Unless you are a country that makes its own missiles and thus always has spare missiles for live training. Live training has its benefits if you can afford it

defence.pk

Increase your knowledge of electromagnetism and electromagnetic characteristics of materials. It is a long road, but quite satisfying in the end.

 

[Raja Porus]

You don't need 5th gen planes.

Dealing with LRSAM

You are right. But the casualties were because of improper communication and implementation. In ideal case my packages wouldn't have come against Indian ADGE. I was unable to convey my plans to oscar.

Increase your knowledge of electromagnetism

It was a complete chapter in my recent FSc exams.... Fardays laws, left hand rule...etc

 

[meghdut]

Yes, he's right. But we don't have 5th gen planes. Moreover most of the PAF planes were lost due to poor employment resulting from my own faults in giving orders clearly as well as misinterpretations in their implementation.

Don’t be too hard on yourself, we’re doing it for the first time, and it was plenty exciting too. I must commend you for your use of MLRS

6PM - Pakistan time. September 16 2026


Its barely been 18 hours to hostilities and The escalation ladder keeps climbing with both sides ravaging each other.

What began with airstrikes now has Cruise and ballistic missiles flying around against all targets with devastating results. Aircraft have been badly mauled for both by the long range SAM systems so they have been held back other than some desperate PAF attempts to take out India's S-400 units.
On the Pakistani side, they came up with a unique way of utilizing their long range MLRS units to take out Indian AD - with pretty decent results along with crating a lot of IAF forward air bases.

The results have been somewhat successful for the Pakistani coastal SSM Harba and Zarb batteries with them fulfilling their A2/AD mission and sinking no less than 3 Indian Frigates from the forward Task Forces who have been forced to pull back.

However one thing is clear, Loitering weapons and UAVs are the weapon of choice in this costly war and manned aircraft suffer greatly especially due to the loss of life with pilots.

Both sides now are looking to wear each others land forces down before they meet face to face and plans are in motion.

The total losses so far from the first shot fired should paint a picture of the devastation caused in such a short time.

SIDE: India
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
8x 40mm/70 Single Bofors [Flycatcher Mk1 FCR]
2x A/C Hangar (2x Large Aircraft)
1x A/C Hangar (2x Medium Aircraft)
1x A/C Hardened Aircraft Shelter (1x Large Aircraft)
1x AH-64E Apache Guardian
11x Akash
15x Ammo Revetment
6x BMP-2 Sarath [AT-5 Spandrel A] IFV
15x Brahmos Blk II [Land-Attack]
5x Brahmos Blk III [Land-Attack]
2x Building (Control Tower)
1x Building (Very Large)
12x David's Sling TEL
1x EMB-145I AEWC
1x F 31 Brahmaputra [Mod Godavari]
1x Gulfstream III
3x Harop TEL
3x Harpy TEL
12x HISAR-A TEL
2x HQ Div (Soviet Red Army)
12x Hyunmoo 2C [Conventional 500kg HE] TEL
2x Il-78MKI Midas
2x Jaguar IS [Darin 2]
14x Jaguar IS [Darin 3]
13x LCA Tejas Mk1
9x MiG-21bis UPG Fishbed N [Bison]
14x MiG-29UPG Fulcrum A
7x Mirage 2000-5EDA
8x Mirage 2000H-5
1x P 28 Kamorta [Pr.28]
2x P 61 Kora [Pr.25A Khukri]
1x P-8I Neptune [Poseidon]
1x Radar (GRL 600 Indra 1)
1x Radar (Master-T)
1x Radar (Spoon Rest D [P-18])
2x Radar (THD-1955 MPR)
3x Radar (Tin Shield A [5N59])
1x Radar (TRS 2215)
12x Rafale C
2-3x S 44 Shishumar [Type 209-1500]
1x S 55 Sindhughosh [PL-877E Kilo]
9x SA-16 Gimlet [9K310 Igla-1] MANPADS
2x SA-19 Grisom [2S6M] TELAR
4x SA-21a Growler TEL
11x SA-21a/b Growler TEL
6x SA-3b Goa Quad Rail
6x SA-7a Grail [9K32 Strela-2] MANPADS
8x Su-30MKI Flanker H
10x Su-30MKI Mk2 Flanker H
11x Su-30MKI Mk2 Flanker H
2x Vehicle (Barak I VLS [8 Cells])
2x Vehicle (Cheese Board [96L6])
3x Vehicle (EL/M-2084 MMR)
2x Vehicle (ELINT [Advanced])
1x Vehicle (ELINT [Average])
4x Vehicle (EOS)
2x Vehicle (Flat Face B [P-19])
5x Vehicle (Flycatcher Mk1)
1x Vehicle (Flycatcher Mk2)
3x Vehicle (Grave Stone [92N2])
4x Vehicle (KALKAN-II)
2x Vehicle (Low Blow [SNR-125])
1x Vehicle (Mirador Tri-Sensor Turret)
3x Vehicle (Rajendra)
4x Vehicle (Truck, C2/C3)
4x Vehicle (Truck, Unarmed)

SIDE: Pakistan
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
8x 30mm China LD-2000 [Type 730]
8x 35mm Twin Oerlikon [UAR-1021 Skyguard FCR]
2x 35mm/90 PGZ-07 SPAAG
1x A/C Hangar (2x Large Aircraft)
4x A/C Hangar (2x Medium Aircraft)
7x A/C Hardened Aircraft Shelter (1x Large Aircraft)
1x A/C Hardened Aircraft Shelter (1x Medium Aircraft)
3x Al Khalid [MBT-2000] Main Battle Tank
1x Ammo Shelter
2x Anka-I ELINT Mod
3x AvGas (150k Liter Tank)
6x AvGas (75k Liter Tank)
2x Bayraktar Akinci UCAV
1x Building (Airport Terminal)
1x Building (Control Tower)
3x C-802 Triple
7x F-16A Falcon ADF
11x F-16AM Falcon MLU
2x F-16B Falcon ADF
4x F-16BM Falcon MLU
1x F-16CJ Blk 52+ Falcon [Peace Drive]
4x F-16DJ Blk 52+ Falcon [Peace Drive]
2x F-7MP Skybolt [F-7PG]
4x Anka[Star]
8x HQ-16A [LY-80] TEL
2x HQ-17 TELAR
16x HQ-9A TEL
8x HQ-9B TEL
7x J-10C Vigorous Dragon
21x JF-17 Thunder Blk 2
6x JF-17 Thunder Blk 3
3x JF-17B Thunder Blk 2
11x M113A1 APC
3x Mirage 5D
2x Mirage 5DR
10x Mirage 5F [ROSE II/III]
4x Mirage 5PA2
3x Mistral MANPADS
18x MQM-74C Chukar II UAV
1x P-3C Orion Update II
1x PD.808GE2
4x R.440 Crotale NG
1x Radar (AN/TPS-77)
1x Radar (China YLC-2V)
1x Radar (MPDR-45)
3x RB 70 Rayrider Mk1 MANPADS
1x S 139 Improved Khalid [Agosta 90B]
1x Saab 2000 AEW&C [Erieye]
3x SY-400 MLRS
1x Vehicle (1L269 Krasuha-2 Mobile Jammer+ELINT)
4x Vehicle (China HT-233 [HQ-9])
1x Vehicle (China Type 352 Square Tie)
4x Vehicle (China YLC-2V)
4x Vehicle (Truck, Unarmed)
3x Vehicle (UAR-1021 Skyguard)
1x Y-8F-400 Cub [ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle]

NOTE: SAMs have been brutal but so as been EW and ELINT in find them.
What is key to note is every move and countermove is being executed as if in real time but planned in advance - this belies the actual real time processing of data by humans and the inevitable errors and hesitation that goes into decision making.


@ghazi52 @araz @The Eagle @The Accountant @That Guy @Irfan Baloch @PanzerKiel @gNoStiC MuSliM @waz @Windjammer @KaiserX @niaz @MastanKhan @krash @FOOLS_NIGHTMARE @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bratva @Foxtrot Alpha @Rafael @Rafi @Dazzler @Jango @Reichsmarschall @blain2


And PLEASE - none of the political whining.

This war is brutal - with hundreds of elements and targets involved and multiple air, land and sea forces engaging in all theatres including the electronic one.
Satellites pass overhead as well.

View attachment 862008

Wasn’t it some damn wild ride!! Thanks a lot to you for making the time for doing it. I can imagine you supplementing loads of miscellaneous systems to account for those not available in the sim. It is a hard work indeed. Hopefully we can do it again, after absorbing the lessons.

Plenty of lessons for an amateur like me. I'll list them down here someday once we are over with the exercise....or...i was thinking that i would keep on posting them regularly so that they are not lose in the sands of time.

If you are an amateur, then we’re toddlers!!!

 

[Joe Shearer]

Plenty of lessons for an amateur like me.

Stop that right now; we might injure ourselves.

 

[PanzerKiel]

Stop that right now; we might injure ourselves.

No sir, the secret of eternal learning lies in the belief that I know nothing at all.

Makes it much more interesting and enjoyable.

 

[Joe Shearer]

No sir, the secret of eternal learning lies in the belief that I know nothing at all.

Makes it much more interesting and enjoyable.

 

[SQ8]

You are right. But the casualties were because of improper communication and implementation. In ideal case my packages wouldn't have come against Indian ADGE. I was unable to convey my plans to oscar.

It was a complete chapter in my recent FSc exams.... Fardays laws, left hand rule...etc

Think of it this way - it was a learning process in terms of not just running a wargame but how to convey operational plans - mission planning and so on.

@PanzerKiel , for context: what is the learning timeframe for someone doing in the profession?

 

[Raja Porus]

Btw joe, are you CDS, COAS or GOC-in-C?