The Mumbai Drama

[mastaan]

I don't know if you are addressing me or someone else. But let me deal with your post anyway. Your colleague wrote, the Indian court wouldn't admit confession under medical sedation. Please tell me, would your court admit confession under duress and brutality? Is confession taken by using violence and torture admissible in Indian Court?

Neither is admissiable in an Indian court... But I am confused at your changing points... What is it that you want to point at?

1. Is 26/11 stage managed...? I had used a reference in Khaleej times which states that some rogue elements were indeed involved and thus, it can not be stage managed... That is why the whole world is asking Pakistan and even for the heck of it, Pakistan authorities had to call Hafiz Saeed for investogations.. So it can not be a fluke mate.... Plus, if there was any indian hand in it and that had been the case, it would have reflected somewhere in Indian or american Investigations... if we can arrest a major on charges of Samjahuta, then in 26/11 kind of an incident no one would have been spared - state or non-state...

2. What Kasab is saying is Gospel truth? Arguably not and Indian courts will not accept what he said under duress or any other influence... he will have to accept or state his statements in his full aware/awaken self and only is it admissible... Only circumstantial evidence can be used to counter him, if he changes his statements... But none can be forced...

3. Is Kasab not Pakistani? I don't think anyone needs to prove it... It has been accepted at so many forums, news channels (and Pakistani channels only) have shown his home etc... if you want to defend the undefendable, I am sure you will have to come with some solid support grounds to your conspiracy theory...

4. Indian police is Brutal... That is a fact ! But, is beyond the purview of this argument as courts will not accept anything that police gets out of somebody using stick... and btw, these videos (after they have been reported) have led to suspension/termination of culprits... Indian press is overactive (and at times borders on being provocative), but they do help invoke public hue n cry in such instances and lead to swift action

The larger point is, that the courts have found him guilty based on grounds definitely other than the recording that you see... and has been clearly addressed as a pakistani who has asked for access to and help from Pakistani consulate (btw, the truth tests are done in hospitals under medical supervision only, police can not administer them and thus the cleaner surrounding) and pakistan has also aknowledged the involvement of non-state actors in it...

what i am not clear is what is your point or what are you trying to get at... I am happy to debate (although I am not qualified enough ), but not on your subjective rants like pakistanis speak better language, or a terrorist should have done better under interrogation etc etc...

My friend, it is very easy to point fingers and said you did that and not us... look at so many incidents in pakistan and all i see (for majority and with exception of some right thinking fellows) is blame Raw, CIA and everybody else... but not even a look or concern for the rut within... We lost 166 civilians on that fateful day and for no fault of theirs... For you to even suggest that it is stage managed looks like a disrespect to the dead and those who lost their dear ones... Calling it a drame is not fair... to say the least!

I don't believe that any pakistani agency can kill its own people and in a similar way, I don't believe (and have seen no reasons) that an indian agency can be involved in such a barbarous attack on its own people... It has been proven so many times that the attack originated from Pakistani soil, so why do you want to open that wound and rub the salt by arguing for something which is zero defence at all...

 

[crankthatskunk]

Ok, this video is from Human Rights Watch in India. It also has comments from the man who was beaten up by the police on the roadside in one of the video I presented in above post.

First of all, lets analyse his speech and language, speaking in Hindi he said, “jab paper un ko dikhana soro kia”. He has missed out H from the “Shoro”. A common Indian practice. A Pakistani would say “shoro” and not “Soro”.

On the torture by the police, he said, they kept giving him physical and mental torture in the Police station. Therefore, the public display of brutality was not the end of it. But torture is a common practice by Indian Police.

The women in the video said, in the police stations people are beaten up all the time.

Then the video shows the huge case load of work for an officer.
I pause here and point to another aspect of the video, the crumbling nature and state of the Police stations, furniture, etc. The condition of the Police record and over all depilated state of the infrastructure. All are directing towards a poor and underdeveloped country.

But even the lady in the video displaying the same traits all Indian have, “boosting”; she is using terms like “Economic Powerhouse” etc. Well, having billion+ people is an advantage as well as a problem. Advantage the size of the economy would be bigger naturally, and also if you doing business you can also make more money naturally by exploiting the poor. But overall, the Indians are poor and the country is what all the third world poor countries are, no different at all. Fact remains most of the "foreign exchange" is earn by India selling "cheap labor" to the world. Whatever progress we see, is because of the international companies investing in India in office space etc to house this cheap labour. The western companies naturally try to build the buildings and furnish the offices according to their status. Hence few good buildings can be seen in India in recent years. But when you see, outside, generally the conditions are what all poor third world countries have in Asia and Africa.

In the end, she says something resembling the truth, the image India project. Well trying to project an image and realities are two different things.

Only deluded fools ignore the reality and try to portray an image which is based on falsity. Indian is no different from Pakistan; in most of the cases it is even worst. But Indians as is their practice do not stop their egoistic boosting. I suppose it is a direct result of their stupid Bollywood movies.

 

[mastaan]

First of all, lets analyse his speech and language, speaking in Hindi he said, “jab paper un ko dikhana soro kia”. He has missed out H from the “Shoro”. A common Indian practice. A Pakistani would say “shoro” and not “Soro”.

On the torture by the police, he said, they kept giving him physical and mental torture in the Police station. Therefore, the public display of brutality was not the end of it. But torture is a common practice by Indian Police.

The women in the video said, in the police stations people are beaten up all the time.

The question that you asked was whether statements under duress are accepted by courts and I answered it... Now you bring in another topic of police brutality... It is a sad truth (and thus, I agree with you that $hit happens in some cases) and there have been so many talks of police reforms and our politicians are just living upto their reputation.... But, I don't know how is that relevant here as it is not admissible in court?

I pause here and point to another aspect of the video, the crumbling nature and state of the Police stations, furniture, etc. The condition of the Police record and over all depilated state of the infrastructure. All are directing towards a poor and underdeveloped country.

and why is that a point in a topic called as 'Mumbai Drama', which is essentially on 26/11? see my point of you changing your points in every post?

But even the lady in the video displaying the same traits all Indian have, “boosting”; she is using terms like “Economic Powerhouse” etc. Well, having billion+ people is an advantage as well as a problem. Advantage the size of the economy would be bigger naturally, and also if you doing business you can also make more money naturally by exploiting the poor. But overall, the Indians are poor and the country is what all the third world poor countries are, no different at all. Fact remains most of the "foreign exchange" is earn by India selling "cheap labor" to the world. Whatever progress we see, is because of the international companies investing in India in office space etc to house this cheap labour. The western companies naturally try to build the buildings and furnish the offices according to their status. Hence few good buildings can be seen in India in recent years. But when you see, outside, generally the conditions are what all poor third world countries have in Asia and Africa.

You are so full of hatred for Indians... Damn, it's impressive! Foreign companies are investing in India because of the market size and it is not labor... It's is trained talent (engineers) at low cost and we are proud of that significant advantage which adds to our competitiveness.... And MNCs don't recruit them as labours only, but as equals, who can rise above ranks to run these companies one day... Look around in MNCs like Unilever, Citibank, Berkshire Hathway, Reckitt, Pepsico, Coke, Goldman Sachs, GE, Vodafone etc etc and you will find Indians in top echelons or leading... So, your premise is factually incorrect...

Another fact is that Indian companies and Indians have come of age and are now buying western assets and are great names in themselves... You want some names there? Tata (owner of Jaguar, Corus Steel and tetley... all international brands), Reliance (owns shale gas assets etc across the world), Hindalco (second biggest alumimium player in the world), Sterlite Industries, L&T, Infosys (and the IT pack), ITC ltd, Arcelor Mittal... I mean a private company like SAIL or JSW Steel make more than your countries combined steel produce and you say we are same?) and there are many more... So, to state that we are just a junk shop of the world just highlights how ignorantly blind are you by your hatred... Just so that you know, Large Conglomerates like GE, which are know for their R&D prowess have their biggest R&D facility outside US, established in India, with 14000 people and an Independent charge to take care of cutting edge technology... So, don't crap about us being a labor class (and then say we are just like you)... we are getting better and aspire to get further better and have a track record to support that assertion...

In the end, she says something resembling the truth, the image India project. Well trying to project an image and realities are two different things.

Only deluded fools ignore the reality and try to portray an image which is based on falsity. Indian is no different from Pakistan; in most of the cases it is even worst. But Indians as is their practice do not stop their egoistic boosting. I suppose it is a direct result of their stupid Bollywood movies.

Again you change track... But I will answer this... No one ever said that we are the best in the world, but the point is that are getting better.... We are already the 4th biggest economy in the world by PPP terms (which is actual purchasing power indicator) and will be the third biggest, after US & China in another 3 years....

Yes, reality is that we have a high number of people below the poverty line... But we have never shied away from accepting that and we intend to make amends... Recent schemes like NREGA have created an avenue to jump start rural economy in non-peak seasons of farming and that has already started a small vurtuous circle, which by any economic theory can only grow... There are gaps mate (I agree with you there), but we are not sitting on them and staring at the problem... we are doing something about it and moving on to make a better tomorrow... the rising and consistently higher (more than double of Pakistan's numbers, which is already much lower and thus a small number hurts only) GDP rates should give you that reflection atleast

India is different from Pakistan in so many ways and our track record of last so many years economicially and politically (in terms of our influence) should tell you that... If after all of this, you want to know more, I will be happy to discuss, but if you just want to jump from one topic of India bashing to another on a platform to discuss kasab etc... then I politely rest my case...

 

[crankthatskunk]

Is 26/11 stage managed...? I had used a reference in Khaleej times which states that some rogue elements were indeed involved and thus, it can not be stage managed... That is why the whole world is asking Pakistan and even for the heck of it, Pakistan authorities had to call Hafiz Saeed for investogations.. So it can not be a fluke mate.... Plus, if there was any indian hand in it and that had been the case, it would have reflected somewhere in Indian or american Investigations... if we can arrest a major on charges of Samjahuta, then in 26/11 kind of an incident no one would have been spared - state or non-state...

I am not confused at all I said the interview and confession is staged. Which is the case in point.

You and the other poster has said what Qasab is saying is truth or not. This once again is not only a wrong but a dishonest question.
If something is not admissible in a court of Law, it is rejected on some solid grounds.

1- Someone tortured would admit to the acts which he did not commit.
2- He will implicate himself for fear of his life.

Therefore, whatever this “Qasab” said is of no consequences whatsoever, it has absolutely no probe value. My point is valid this whole video is a fake affair, created for propaganda purposes by the Indians.

A- To show falsely how advanced and civilised they are in their interrogations, while reality is completely different from the perception they are trying to create in this video.

B- To spoon feed him some selected, choice words for propaganda purposes against Pakistan, Islam and Muslims.

C- It is obvious that it can not be entered in to the court proceedings as evidence, therefore, the only reason and its true value is staged propaganda.

Show some proofs for me to comment rather than a propaganda video. I just busted this video with valid arguments, next.

3. Is Kasab not Pakistani? I don't think anyone needs to prove it... It has been accepted at so many forums, news channels (and Pakistani channels only) have shown his home etc... if you want to defend the undefendable, I am sure you will have to come with some solid support grounds to your conspiracy theory...

Yeah, sure and what next? Do you understand your line of reasoning? You say he is a Pakistani, no need to prove it. Well, I am afraid, that’s why you are wrong, you needed to prove it in a court of Law. Now if Indian have conducted his trial on this kind of reasoning and admitted the evidence under duress and torture than it is a travesty of justice.

The larger point is, that the courts have found him guilty based on grounds definitely other than the recording that you see... and has been clearly addressed as a pakistani who has asked for access to and help from Pakistani consulate (btw, the truth tests are done in hospitals under medical supervision only, police can not administer them and thus the cleaner surrounding) and pakistan has also aknowledged the involvement of non-state actors in it...

Where are those proofs? List them and I will go through the proofs and then comments. Empty rhetoric is useless.

what i am not clear is what is your point or what are you trying to get at... I am happy to debate (although I am not qualified enough ), but not on your subjective rants like pakistanis speak better language, or a terrorist should have done better under interrogation etc etc..

.

And you still didn’t get it what others were saying and what I said, his choice of language the words he used and his pronunciation shows he is more likely not a Pakistani.

My friend, it is very easy to point fingers and said you did that and not us... look at so many incidents in Pakistan and all i see (for majority and with exception of some right thinking fellows) is blame Raw, CIA and everybody else... but not even a look or concern for the rut within... We lost 166 civilians on that fateful day and for no fault of theirs... For you to even suggest that it is stage managed looks like a disrespect to the dead and those who lost their dear ones... Calling it a drame is not fair... to say the least!

Yeah precisely, it is very easy to point fingers. Let me ask you reverse questions. You lost 166 and we have lost near to 40,000 get your prospective right.

1- there is terrorism in Pakistan almost everyday.
2- Thousands of people have died.
3- Terrorists who are conducting this terror may be living in Pakistan and some of them are Pakistanis. But the vital questions are;

A- Who trained them? B-Financed them? C-Armed them? it can not be Pakistan because they are killing Pakistani civilians and Army both.

So who is the real terrorist behind these attacks in Pakistan? Now answer my questions rather than engaging in empty talk.

I will tell you something, you are blissfully unaware of lots of facts. Pakistanis have so much evidence against India and her involvement in terror in Pakistan. But they are hamstrung because of the Americans. Americans are sitting in Afghanistan; legally they are responsible for occupied land. Therefore, providing proofs of terrorism exported from Afghanistan to Pakistan would mean implications that Americans are involved too. Americans would never allow that perception to go around the world, therefore, their slaves in Pakistani establishment like Rehman Malik, Gilani and Zardari would neither speak about it nor present the evidence to the world. You be rest assured there is sacks load of evidence available.

You should do a little bit more research about Headley he is a double or may be a triple agent. So don’t make judgement unless you know the full facts and do not point fingers at others. As much as court verdicts are concerned there could be many based on fabricated evidence, does not mean it really happened the way it is portrayed. You should know Indian record on terror; we have revelations about the blasts in India and also the “Samjhota” train incident, who was involved.

 

[crankthatskunk]

A statement was made by an Indian politicians that Karkare told him just days before he died in Mumbai, that he is receiving death threats. Anyway, listen to Tarpley, what he has to say about Hindu Fascists and their hand in Mumbai attacks.
This is not Pakistani point of view.

Now, listen to Rep in the Congress, he is describing the terror of Hindu Terrorists on Christians.

You attack and kill as a matter of practice Muslims, Christians, Dalit in India.

 

[nightfreakboy]

Ok people lets come to the conclusion.
First of all let me settle this, that an Indian life is as valuable as a Pakistani's life and vice versa, let there be no difference. Our geopolitical situation in this war on terror should have brought us closer not taken us away from each other. We should have progressed towards negotiations, meetings and confessions, not waging proxy wars at each other. Yes I said it Pakistani’s are as much involved in terrorism against India as much the Indians are involved in terrorism in Pakistan. Yes many of your don's have found safe haven in our land but then you also are sponsoring the Nationalistic movement of Baluchistan and you are suppressing the voice of Kashmiris as we are suppressing the voice of Baluchis. That is not fair. Please don't deny it. I mean both the sides, we all know what the truth is. What we should do is make a way open for dialogue first then we should call each other’s Presidents and threaten them that “We will wage war against you if necessary”, which is rare but every opportunity is used up and I am not being biased but this happens more from the Indian side. On the other hand if an event takes place in Pakistan we don't threaten we just retaliate. This is wrong on both sides. If we today now at this moment stop poisoning our children’s minds we might just be able to turn this thing around. Just think about the possibilities that we could reach by cooperation in the fields of Space exploration, yes we can rule even the space, the technology that we use to make a bomb drop 2500 km from any point, could be used to overcome the most developed countries in this space race by sending joint expeditions just like the Americans and the Russians do. We could excel in the medical field by joining our great minds together to make new technology. We already are close to ruling the sports, while the Asim-Bhopana duo take over the world, and most specially you winning the Cricket world cup, a normal Pakistani would not agree to this but a Pakistani with some level of sportsman’s spirit (like me ) would say you earned (maybe the mantars worked ), Congrats. People should know that there is more between Pakistan and India than just enmity, they should know that through cooperation and better politicians both can become the voices that should not be ever again be ignored.