The logic behind JF-17s ?

[Creder]

first no flames... i want an answer that makes sense even remotely so

okay i've tried my best to think of somehow making sense of this jf-17 fighter that everyone in pakistan is so happy about BUT i cant..

here are some points

1. Its inferior to PAF's prime rival the Su-30MKI (if anyone can prove this otherwise i would really appreciate it..honestly i mean it)

2. After being unable to modernize itself for over such a long period of time, one would think that PAF deserves a real classy fighter that is fully capable of deterring enemy threats without ANY chance of failure ( please dont say that since our pilots are super good they can take care of anything...Modern warfare unfortunately has shifted more to the technological side and therefore you can't completely just rely on skill anymore )

3. Considering its "air inferiority"..why the hell are we getting 250 ?? ( i know we'll be modifying the future blocks but so will be everyone else !)

Before any thoughts on this, i must request please don't say that its the best we could do with our budget... we could afford a much more competent fighter although not in the same numbers but atleast our airforce wouldnt be using the same fighter as zimbabwe to protect their country...If you guys can somehow make sense of all of this id sleep a happy man


PS indian dudes id really welcome any "insightful" thoughts or suggestions but DONT troll ...thats a request

 

[AliFarooq]

1. Its inferior to PAF's prime rival the Su-30MKI (if anyone can prove this otherwise i would really appreciate it..honestly i mean it)

jf-17 is not considered a rival for Su-30MKI, we have f-16s and are going to induct FC-20s in future

2. After being unable to modernize itself for over such a long period of time, one would think that PAF deserves a real classy fighter that is fully capable of deterring enemy threats without ANY chance of failure ( please dont say that since our pilots are super good they can take care of anything...Modern warfare unfortunately has shifted more to the technological side and therefore you can't completely just rely on skill anymore )

It is a light fighter, and it is going to replace the agings F-7s and mirages. So the airforce is modernizing it self.

 

[TaimiKhan]

1. Its inferior to PAF's prime rival the Su-30MKI (if anyone can prove this otherwise i would really appreciate it..honestly i mean it)

Who said it is gonna rival Su-30 ?? If anyone says that is living in a fools paradise, nor is it superior to Su-30. Both are different aircraft of different class with different objectives to achieve by their airforces.

2. After being unable to modernize itself for over such a long period of time, one would think that PAF deserves a real classy fighter that is fully capable of deterring enemy threats without ANY chance of failure ( please dont say that since our pilots are super good they can take care of anything...Modern warfare unfortunately has shifted more to the technological side and therefore you can't completely just rely on skill anymore )

And what kind of classy fighter to you recommend looking at PAF budget constraints ?? What is inferior in JF-17 that it can not replace the outdated Mirage III/V, F-7s, A-5s in PAF ranks ?? Why are the pilots of F-16s loving to fly JF-17s and its many functions or why pilots of classy F-16 brought to fly this clumsy jet ??

3. Considering its "air inferiority"..why the hell are we getting 250 ?? ( i know we'll be modifying the future blocks but so will be everyone else !)

Air inferiority against Su-30s or the other hundreds of IAF Mig-21s, Mig-27s, Jaguars, Harriers etc etc there for an onslaught on Pakistan. It is not to counter Su-30 but the hundreds of other Indian aircrafts. Also, i have no idea how & why you call it air inferiority, meaning in what sense they seem air inferior to you.

And who said Zimbabwe is going to fly this aircraft for now ?? Not a single credible source to suggest that Zimbabwe is going to get it, that country is itself in economic shambles and will decades to recover from it.

And one other thing is SANCTIONS. In the decade old US sanctions, we had spare problems with F-16s making us fly them less but we had no issue in our Chinese fleet which was at its full operational strength through out the decade old sanctions. So with JF-17 we have a fighter aircraft which has a long road ahead of it and can become a very good fighter aircraft, with the capability to keep it operational without any fears of sanctions and grounding the western classy aircrafts that we may have acquired. It gives us the flexibility to fit it with any kind of avionics which we can acquire, making us not to rely on just one manufacturer.

 

[Quwa]

It's a lightweight 4+ generation fighter meant to make up numbers and take over the majority of operational requirements. The JF-17 wasn't meant to match up MKI on paper, but to pose a credible threat to the Sukhoi in real-life. In other words, the JF-17 will ultimately be equipped with the same sort of weapon-systems, avionics, radar, etc, as the MKI - but only lack in its range, payload and certain performance parameters. Still, this does not mean that the MKI will have a field day with the JF-17, far from it.

 

[pakpower]

So now my question is that FC-20 J-10B is good enough to compete against SU-30MKI ? and I didn't mention 126+ MMRCA contender winner which can be Rafale, SH-18, F-16 Block 60in, Jas grippen, SU-35, Eurofighter. So is FC-20 (J-10B) will be good enough to tackale all these advanced jets also the numerical no's of these jets reaches to 126+280= 406, and PAF is only acquiring 36 which is not enough if we see no wise.

 

[Sapper]

So now my question is that FC-20 J-10B is good enough to compete against SU-30MKI ? and I didn't mention 126+ MMRCA contender winner which can be Rafale, SH-18, F-16 Block 60in, Jas grippen, SU-35, Eurofighter. So is FC-20 (J-10B) will be good enough to tackale all these advanced jets also the numerical no's of these jets reaches to 126+280= 406, and PAF is only acquiring 36 which is not enough if we see no wise.

Dear, India is 5 times bigger and has probably 20 times more money than Pakistan, We cannot match them 1~1, we never had, probably never will. Grow up, try watching world through realistic eyes ... we have money for 36, if we had money enough for 360 we would have ordered 360.

Regards,
Sapper

 

[Sapper]

So now my question is that FC-20 J-10B is good enough to compete against SU-30MKI ? and I didn't mention 126+ MMRCA contender winner which can be Rafale, SH-18, F-16 Block 60in, Jas grippen, SU-35, Eurofighter. So is FC-20 (J-10B) will be good enough to tackale all these advanced jets also the numerical no's of these jets reaches to 126+280= 406, and PAF is only acquiring 36 which is not enough if we see no wise.

Dear, India is 5 times bigger and has probably 20 times more money than Pakistan, We cannot match them 1~1, we never had, probably never will. Grow up, try watching world through realistic eyes ... we have money for 36, if we had money enough for 360 we would have ordered 360.

Regards,
Sapper

 

[Hulk]

I do not think you should be disappointed. PAF is very capable force and they would have thought well about it's role. It is first step towards indigenisation, it has long term benefit. As per comparision to MKI wish we do not have a war.

 

[sudhir007]

I think you have to compare this with LCA both are lightweight single engine same payload at weapon & fuel. both plane have to replace their large no. of old fleet. both country try to built aerospace ind. indigenously so they can get benefit in the future. all the plane start from basic then added more and more feature block wise you can see in F-16 program

 

[BATMAN]

first no flames... i want an answer that makes sense even remotely so

okay i've tried my best to think of somehow making sense of this jf-17 fighter that everyone in pakistan is so happy about BUT i cant..

here are some points

1. Its inferior to PAF's prime rival the Su-30MKI (if anyone can prove this otherwise i would really appreciate it..honestly i mean it)

2. After being unable to modernize itself for over such a long period of time, one would think that PAF deserves a real classy fighter that is fully capable of deterring enemy threats without ANY chance of failure ( please dont say that since our pilots are super good they can take care of anything...Modern warfare unfortunately has shifted more to the technological side and therefore you can't completely just rely on skill anymore )

3. Considering its "air inferiority"..why the hell are we getting 250 ?? ( i know we'll be modifying the future blocks but so will be everyone else !)

Before any thoughts on this, i must request please don't say that its the best we could do with our budget... we could afford a much more competent fighter although not in the same numbers but atleast our airforce wouldnt be using the same fighter as zimbabwe to protect their country...If you guys can somehow make sense of all of this id sleep a happy man


PS indian dudes id really welcome any "insightful" thoughts or suggestions but DONT troll ...thats a request

Can we say 'NOTHING'?

 

[Nihat]

first no flames... i want an answer that makes sense even remotely so

okay i've tried my best to think of somehow making sense of this jf-17 fighter that everyone in pakistan is so happy about BUT i cant..

here are some points

1. Its inferior to PAF's prime rival the Su-30MKI (if anyone can prove this otherwise i would really appreciate it..honestly i mean it)

2. After being unable to modernize itself for over such a long period of time, one would think that PAF deserves a real classy fighter that is fully capable of deterring enemy threats without ANY chance of failure ( please dont say that since our pilots are super good they can take care of anything...Modern warfare unfortunately has shifted more to the technological side and therefore you can't completely just rely on skill anymore )

3. Considering its "air inferiority"..why the hell are we getting 250 ?? ( i know we'll be modifying the future blocks but so will be everyone else !)

Before any thoughts on this, i must request please don't say that its the best we could do with our budget... we could afford a much more competent fighter although not in the same numbers but atleast our airforce wouldnt be using the same fighter as zimbabwe to protect their country...If you guys can somehow make sense of all of this id sleep a happy man


PS indian dudes id really welcome any "insightful" thoughts or suggestions but DONT troll ...thats a request

I think the fighter is perfect for PAF , a fighter has to fit the needs of the airforce in which it is inducted. To determine why JF-17 was chosen , it's necessary to list out what PAF needed at this point of time.

1. To replace it's aeging fleet of A-5 and Mirage

2. To have credible BVR capable fighter since BVR is the present and future of air combat

3. An airframe which would not be obsolete at least into the mid 2030's

4. A combat platform free from sanctions in the future.

5. Aircraft which would not strain the budget and prove satisfactory in a prolonged conflict

In light of all this , can you name me even one fighter which can compete with and beat the JF-17 choice.

All this phoren maal comes at exorbitant prices and gigantic life cycle costs (discounting threat of sanctions).

How this platform fares against future Indian inventory is a moot point and for debate in a different thread , besides , one cannot just hope to match the adversary all time , final judgment has to be based on credible analysis of requirements and constraints.

 

[ghazi52]

Thank you, Nihat
But just a side point you never thanks anybody, any reason.....

 

[Creder]

Who said it is gonna rival Su-30 ?? If anyone says that is living in a fools paradise, nor is it superior to Su-30. Both are different aircraft of different class with different objectives to achieve by their airforces.

Thanks for your post.

India has around 120 su-30's in service..the total number at the completion of their order will be around 240...also they have 62 Mig-29S which will be upgraded to SMT standard.

Pakistan has 45 F-16s ordered 36 J-10s

now you said that the JF-17 and su30 are no mach for each other...

so we're pitting 45 F-16s and 36 J-10s total 81 fighter jets against a fleet of 360 air superiority and multirole fighters (240 su-30s AND about about 120 Rafale/Typhon/Mig-35 ? take your pick or rather IAF's pick) and i have left everything that india has other than the MKI and MRCA for the JF-17s

how does this work out ?



And what kind of classy fighter to you recommend looking at PAF budget constraints ?? What is inferior in JF-17 that it can not replace the outdated Mirage III/V, F-7s, A-5s in PAF ranks ?? Why are the pilots of F-16s loving to fly JF-17s and its many functions or why pilots of classy F-16 brought to fly this clumsy jet ??


Not a classy fighter per say but could not have engaged in a better deal with china lets say for the j-10 instead of the jf17 ?.. instead of having 250 jf17 we could go for a lesser number and induct more j-10s or even something better ?.

Air inferiority against Su-30s or the other hundreds of IAF Mig-21s, Mig-27s, Jaguars, Harriers etc etc there for an onslaught on Pakistan. It is not to counter Su-30 but the hundreds of other Indian aircrafts. Also, i have no idea how & why you call it air inferiority, meaning in what sense they seem air inferior to you.


I have already explained this above.... it isnt necessary to counter a LCA with an LCA especially when your on such a tight bidget...we could go for a fighter that Counters both the LCA and the MKIs along with the MRCA..


And who said Zimbabwe is going to fly this aircraft for now ?? Not a single credible source to suggest that Zimbabwe is going to get it, that country is itself in economic shambles and will decades to recover from it.

"On January 22, 2008, Pakistan started serial production of the aircraft at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra. Azerbaijan and Zimbabwe have each placed orders for procurement of the aircraft. Besides, 8 other countries have also shown interest in the purchase of the JF-17, Defence sources said."


Business Recorder [Pakistan's First Financial Daily]

Lets suppose that even if zimbabwe isnt getting it ... Azerbaijan? didnt even know they had an airforce...well according to wikipedia they do and their best fighter jet is a mig-21


And one other thing is SANCTIONS. In the decade old US sanctions, we had spare problems with F-16s making us fly them less but we had no issue in our Chinese fleet which was at its full operational strength through out the decade old sanctions. So with JF-17 we have a fighter aircraft which has a long road ahead of it and can become a very good fighter aircraft, with the capability to keep it operational without any fears of sanctions and grounding the western classy aircrafts that we may have acquired. It gives us the flexibility to fit it with any kind of avionics which we can acquire, making us not to rely on just one manufacturer.

China is willing to share its most advanced fighter in service with us.. we can no longer say that there arent options...and the sanctions that we have can be dealt with through effective diplomacy.

 

[Creder]

It's a lightweight 4+ generation fighter meant to make up numbers and take over the majority of operational requirements. The JF-17 wasn't meant to match up MKI on paper, but to pose a credible threat to the Sukhoi in real-life. In other words, the JF-17 will ultimately be equipped with the same sort of weapon-systems, avionics, radar, etc, as the MKI - but only lack in its range, payload and certain performance parameters. Still, this does not mean that the MKI will have a field day with the JF-17, far from it.

thnx buddy could you please provide a link where it says its a 4+ gen fighter ?

 

[Creder]

Can we say 'NOTHING'?

you can but that would just be proving my point