The logic behind JF-17s ?

[ajpirzada]

agreed we lack in numbers and quite impossible to match it.

from wat i see, by the end of 2015 we will only have 36 (FC 20) plus 18 (F 16 blk 50/52) capable fighters against indian MKIs and MMRCA.

comin to second tier jets we will have around 36 F 16 A/B (upgraded) plus X amount of JF 17s plus Mirrages and others against indian MIGs plus LCA.

question is how will it work for PAF. answer to this is technology. there are things lik jammers etc which can be installed on almost all fighters which increases their effectiveness against more advanced fighters. most of our F 16s have jammers on them which make MKIs BVR less effective allowin F 16 A/B to challenge MKI. This will be the main strategy of PAF over comin decade atleast.
in short PAF will be acquiring anti-tech to counter indian tech.

hope this makes u feel more secured.

 

[BlackenTheSky]

Its self contradictory.why u dont trust PAF,if this Aircraft was going to be purchased from US or russia then,you were the first one to say,'what a credible Aircraft'

 

[BlackenTheSky]

Every country in the world have aggregation of small and big Aircrafts,By 2015 PAF will operate a fleet of big F-16,FC-20 & fleet of small JF 17...

 

[pakpower]

Dear, India is 5 times bigger and has probably 20 times more money than Pakistan, We cannot match them 1~1, we never had, probably never will. Grow up, try watching world through realistic eyes ... we have money for 36, if we had money enough for 360 we would have ordered 360.

Regards,
Sapper

You may be need to grow up and dont talk to me like that I dont like that kind of ediot stuff from a childs like you. Look how much india bigger in size but they are atleast getting high end stuff unlike us here our pathatic leaders take all the money into their stuff if they work honestly I bet with you that Pakistan also can take and spend a lot on all the high end stuff without worrying about the less resources to buy all that stuff. So everything is possible and look main although Pakistan is a small country as compare to India but still I think that only a mere 36 High end Jets like FC-20 (J-10B) is not gonna enough we at least need minimum of 100-150 in between to stand any chance against India and in future we may need to get more high end stuff like Rafale , Eurofighter if possible and hopefully some honest and patriotic leaders came into light and they will lead us into a future.

 

[MZUBAIR]

first no flames... i want an answer that makes sense even remotely so

okay i've tried my best to think of somehow making sense of this jf-17 fighter that everyone in pakistan is so happy about BUT i cant..

here are some points

1. Its inferior to PAF's prime rival the Su-30MKI (if anyone can prove this otherwise i would really appreciate it..honestly i mean it)

2. After being unable to modernize itself for over such a long period of time, one would think that PAF deserves a real classy fighter that is fully capable of deterring enemy threats without ANY chance of failure ( please dont say that since our pilots are super good they can take care of anything...Modern warfare unfortunately has shifted more to the technological side and therefore you can't completely just rely on skill anymore )

3. Considering its "air inferiority"..why the hell are we getting 250 ?? ( i know we'll be modifying the future blocks but so will be everyone else !)

Before any thoughts on this, i must request please don't say that its the best we could do with our budget... we could afford a much more competent fighter although not in the same numbers but atleast our airforce wouldnt be using the same fighter as zimbabwe to protect their country...If you guys can somehow make sense of all of this id sleep a happy man


PS indian dudes id really welcome any "insightful" thoughts or suggestions but DONT troll ...thats a request

1) JF-17 is not inferior to SU-30, nither JF-17 is designed to counter it.
Its main prupose is to replace old F-7, Mirage III/V and Q5.

2) Jf-17 is a classic and modren fighter, First 50 are for ground support role......so still lot to come in JF-17 which will make it more lethal and capable to counter advance IAF fighters like Mig 29 and Mirage 2K.

3) I am expecting 300 and ur saying 250 is too much. Dude JF-17 is going to replace some 50 A5/Q5 (Fanton) , 190 F-7, 200+ Mirage III/V. JF-17 is cheaper for PAF coz almost 60% airframe manufacturing locally. Few avionics like H2, H4 and RAAD etc (for ground support or ground attack) produced locally.
After few years u will see, almost every thing except radar and engine will be manufacture in Pakistan.

I think you have to compare this with LCA both are lightweight single engine same payload at weapon & fuel. both plane have to replace their large no. of old fleet. both country try to built aerospace ind. indigenously so they can get benefit in the future. all the plane start from basic then added more and more feature block wise you can see in F-16 program

Looking JF-17 Block I, I can say it could be compared not only LCA, but it is wityhout any doubt superior to IAF Mig-21s, Mig-27s, Jaguars, Harriers etc etc .

I guess Block II, which will in air around 2012-13 would be compared to Mig29 and Mirage 2K

As for as Su 30 , Pak will rely on 60+ F-16 and 36 J-10B to counter it.

Beasides that Mirage ROSE (almost 80) and F-7PG (almor 50) will remain in service till 2020.

 

[paritosh]

agreed we lack in numbers and quite impossible to match it.

from wat i see, by the end of 2015 we will only have 36 (FC 20) plus 18 (F 16 blk 50/52) capable fighters against indian MKIs and MMRCA.

comin to second tier jets we will have around 36 F 16 A/B (upgraded) plus X amount of JF 17s plus Mirrages and others against indian MIGs plus LCA.

question is how will it work for PAF. answer to this is technology. there are things lik jammers etc which can be installed on almost all fighters which increases their effectiveness against more advanced fighters. most of our F 16s have jammers on them which make MKIs BVR less effective allowin F 16 A/B to challenge MKI. This will be the main strategy of PAF over comin decade atleast.
in short PAF will be acquiring anti-tech to counter indian tech.

hope this makes u feel more secured.

clever BVR missiles utilize frequency hopping seekers...they give them jammers a bad time...and a jammer has a limit to all that it can jam at a given point...
you compare the BVR capabilites...onboard radars...availability of missiles...and number of BVR missile pylons aboard each a/c...not a good picture for a full scale air-war with us.

 

[Trisonics]

The 250 number is simple, regardless of the type of planes IAF has right now, it cannot afford to push every single one into Pakistan. That is not the case with PAF..they will go all out with whatever they have...simple as that... and yes 250 new planes will be a headache for India.

 

[MZUBAIR]

Who said it is gonna rival Su-30 ?? If anyone says that is living in a fools paradise, nor is it superior to Su-30. Both are different aircraft of different class with different objectives to achieve by their airforces.

Thanks for your post.

India has around 120 su-30's in service..the total number at the completion of their order will be around 240...also they have 62 Mig-29S which will be upgraded to SMT standard.

Pakistan has 45 F-16s ordered 36 J-10s

now you said that the JF-17 and su30 are no mach for each other...

so we're pitting 45 F-16s and 36 J-10s total 81 fighter jets against a fleet of 360 air superiority and multirole fighters (240 su-30s AND about about 120 Rafale/Typhon/Mig-35 ? take your pick or rather IAF's pick) and i have left everything that india has other than the MKI and MRCA for the JF-17s

how does this work out ?

Dude first, we canot buy 230 J-10B or 150 more F-16, may be we will buy older F-16 to counter SU 30.

Second India have 2 rivals China and Pakistan, and India have to prepare for both. China has much larger Army, navy and airforce then India. So they are also trying to balance the power as we are doing against doing.

And what kind of classy fighter to you recommend looking at PAF budget constraints ?? What is inferior in JF-17 that it can not replace the outdated Mirage III/V, F-7s, A-5s in PAF ranks ?? Why are the pilots of F-16s loving to fly JF-17s and its many functions or why pilots of classy F-16 brought to fly this clumsy jet ??


Not a classy fighter per say but could not have engaged in a better deal with china lets say for the j-10 instead of the jf17 ?.. instead of having 250 jf17 we could go for a lesser number and induct more j-10s or even something better ?.

First 36 r revolutionary, laterly PAF will buy more....may be 50 more.
Still negotiations are going between Pak and China about J-10B deal. May be number will change to 50 or 60. Lets wait..news will come in this month or next month.

Air inferiority against Su-30s or the other hundreds of IAF Mig-21s, Mig-27s, Jaguars, Harriers etc etc there for an onslaught on Pakistan. It is not to counter Su-30 but the hundreds of other Indian aircrafts. Also, i have no idea how & why you call it air inferiority, meaning in what sense they seem air inferior to you.


I have already explained this above.... it isnt necessary to counter a LCA with an LCA especially when your on such a tight bidget...we could go for a fighter that Counters both the LCA and the MKIs along with the MRCA..

No, Jet is purchased according to the desired role. Heavy fighters are not best for interceptions or ground support, Su 30 is best for deap strike.

Light weight AC are agile, besides that money maintenance cost is another factor.

And who said Zimbabwe is going to fly this aircraft for now ?? Not a single credible source to suggest that Zimbabwe is going to get it, that country is itself in economic shambles and will decades to recover from it.

"On January 22, 2008, Pakistan started serial production of the aircraft at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra. Azerbaijan and Zimbabwe have each placed orders for procurement of the aircraft. Besides, 8 other countries have also shown interest in the purchase of the JF-17, Defence sources said."

Business Recorder [Pakistan's First Financial Daily]

Lets suppose that even if zimbabwe isnt getting it ... Azerbaijan? didnt even know they had an airforce...well according to wikipedia they do and their best fighter jet is a mig-21

Wt goes wrong if Azerbaijan and Zimbabve will buy it, JF-17 block II (lateer AC after first 50) will be costomized according to PAF needs with western Radara, engine and avionica and all frame wok and other things will be developed locally.


And one other thing is SANCTIONS. In the decade old US sanctions, we had spare problems with F-16s making us fly them less but we had no issue in our Chinese fleet which was at its full operational strength through out the decade old sanctions. So with JF-17 we have a fighter aircraft which has a long road ahead of it and can become a very good fighter aircraft, with the capability to keep it operational without any fears of sanctions and grounding the western classy aircrafts that we may have acquired. It gives us the flexibility to fit it with any kind of avionics which we can acquire, making us not to rely on just one manufacturer.

China is willing to share its most advanced fighter in service with us.. we can no longer say that there arent options...and the sanctions that we have can be dealt with through effective diplomacy.

I hope, Pakistan wouldnt be facing any Sanctions in coming decades.

 

[MZUBAIR]

agreed we lack in numbers and quite impossible to match it.

from wat i see, by the end of 2015 we will only have 36 (FC 20) plus 18 (F 16 blk 50/52) capable fighters against indian MKIs and MMRCA.

comin to second tier jets we will have around 36 F 16 A/B (upgraded) plus X amount of JF 17s plus Mirrages and others against indian MIGs plus LCA.

question is how will it work for PAF. answer to this is technology. there are things lik jammers etc which can be installed on almost all fighters which increases their effectiveness against more advanced fighters. most of our F 16s have jammers on them which make MKIs BVR less effective allowin F 16 A/B to challenge MKI. This will be the main strategy of PAF over comin decade atleast.
in short PAF will be acquiring anti-tech to counter indian tech.

hope this makes u feel more secured.

Where MMRCA comes from, its just a concept.

 

[gambit]

clever BVR missiles utilize frequency hopping seekers...they give them jammers a bad time...and a jammer has a limit to all that it can jam at a given point...

Be careful about this kind of general statement/claim.

NTIA Special Publication 00-40 - Chapter 3

Radar Frequency Selection

The best frequency to use for a radar depends upon its application. Like most other radio design decisions, the choice of frequency usually involves tradeoffs among several factors such as physical size, transmitted power, antenna beamwidth, and atmospheric attenuation.

Physical Size. The dimensions of the hardware used to generate and transmit radio frequency power are, in general, proportional to wavelength. At lower frequencies where wavelengths are longer, the hardware is usually large and heavy. At the higher frequencies where the wavelengths are shorter, radars can be housed in smaller packages and operate in more limited spaces with correspondingly less weight.

Transmitted Power. The choice of frequency (wavelength) indirectly influences the ability of radar to transmit large amounts of power because of its impact on hardware size. The levels of power that can be reasonably handled by a radar transmitter are largely limited by voltage gradients and heat dissipation requirements--the larger, heavier radars operating at wavelengths on the order of meters can transmit megawatts of average power, whereas millimeter-wave radars may be limited to only a few hundred watts of average power.

Beamwidth. The narrower the beam, the greater the transmitted power that is concentrated in a particular direction at any one time, and the finer the angular resolution. The width of the radar's antenna beam is directly proportional to the ratio of the wavelength to the width of the antenna. At low frequencies, large antennas must generally be used to achieve acceptably narrow beams. At higher frequencies, small antennas will suffice.

Atmospheric Attenuation. In passing through the atmosphere, radio waves may be attenuated by two basic mechanisms: absorption and scattering. The absorption is mainly due to oxygen and water vapor. The scattering is due almost entirely to liquid hydrometeors. Both absorption and scattering increase with frequency. Below about 100 MHz, atmospheric attenuation is negligible. Above about 10 GHz, it becomes increasingly important.

Missile seekers and targeting radars are usually in ghz bands. This is for high target data update. The closer one gets to the target, the more important it is to have this high target data update. If the target make a sudden move, as in evasive maneuvers, only the ghz bands is capable of providing that sudden movement update information.

That mean frequency agility is limited in scope. Everyone know this. So everyone need to pay attention to the paragraphs above, particularly about the physical antenna size and beamwidth relationship. Target data update also improve as the main beam narrows. But antenna dimension inversely affect beamwidth. All the more reasons why frequency agility is limited in scope -- At higher frequencies, small antennas will suffice. So since missile radar seekers have small nosecones, therefore very small antennas, they will have to resort to using the ghz bands IF they want to have that high target data update just in case the victim make a sudden move to evade the missile. Once again -- frequency agility is limited in scope.

But since everyone know this fact, the only thing left for the designer is that frequency agility ability itself, as in how fast can the system move between one freq to another, in transmit, receive and processing of the data. All three items must be ideally balanced. The better this 'jumping' around, the more difficult it will be for the opponent ECM to keep up. The better ECM systems will be able to anticipate, but not with %100 certainty, as to where the next 'jump' will be and saturate that freq as well as the current one. It is very difficult to envision the whole thing since this is happening at practically light speed.

So to sum it up...

Narrow beamwidth is desirable for rapid target data update. Overriding consideration. Utmost importance. No other discussions necessary.

- The lower the freq employed, the larger the antenna.

- The higher the freq employed, large or small antenna will do, but with small missile radomes, it will be small antennas.

 

[All-Green]

You may be need to grow up and dont talk to me like that I dont like that kind of ediot stuff from a childs like you. Look how much india bigger in size but they are atleast getting high end stuff unlike us here our pathatic leaders take all the money into their stuff if they work honestly I bet with you that Pakistan also can take and spend a lot on all the high end stuff without worrying about the less resources to buy all that stuff. So everything is possible and look main although Pakistan is a small country as compare to India but still I think that only a mere 36 High end Jets like FC-20 (J-10B) is not gonna enough we at least need minimum of 100-150 in between to stand any chance against India and in future we may need to get more high end stuff like Rafale , Eurofighter if possible and hopefully some honest and patriotic leaders came into light and they will lead us into a future.

To make matter simple, JF-17 is as high end as it gets compared to current inventory of PAF.

We need to have a mix of aircraft to maintain a reasonable defensive ratio and enable a high number of sorties for all purposes in a war ...we cannot simply buy a 100 top notch aircraft and expect them to meet our needs and maintain a high sortie rate...there are many missions where you do not need to send the best air superiority fighter...you will be wasting precious resources in maintaining such a high usage of high tech fighters and shortening their life span without any advantage being gained...also high tech and larger aircraft will not be easily operated from satellite airfields or temporary runways established on the highways...
Like Sweden's cold war strategy in case of Soviet Invasion, our strategy is to deny air superiority even in case of major airbases suffering a lot of damage...in this JF-17 fits in beautifully since it is light but high tech enough to be a major pain for our enemies...

We need close air support squadrons for the Army, naval support squadrons, interceptor squadrons, air superiority squadrons, reconnaissance etc...
Even if we buy 100 of the best that will not do to meet such a requirement and it will actually be counter productive to spread a top notch high end fighter so thin into all roles and reduce its life tenfold...
So we have to spread our budget wisely and diversify...

We may eventually have nearly a 100 F-16s (if we buy 18 additional blk52 and get the additional F-16s released from USN)
Maybe the 36 FC-20 will be stretched to 60-80...
However anything around 150 of F-16+FC-20 would be good enough number of high tech platforms by 2020.

Even if we did not have economic woes, due to the assured supply chain and cost to benefit ratio, JF-17 is a first rate pick since we have had complete say in this project and have this custom made to our requirements...

 

[hboGYT]

JF-17 offers some unparalleled advantage over Su-30MKI.

JF-17 is inferior to Su-30MKi, but that doesn't mean it cannot engage the latter. As long as JF-17s are able to fire SD-10s outside r-77's lethal range(they are), they will put up a fair fight.

More importantly, China also has R-77 and its counters are included in JF-17's EWS. On the other hand, India has no access to SD-10. This makes SD-10 more difficult to jam for the INdians. In light of this, JF-17s may even be better choices against Su-30MKI. These Su-30s have Israeli EWS, who happen to be privy to certain American technology. This might enable the Indians to jam F-16s' radars but not JF-17s'.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Donatello]

I do not know why you are comparing JF 17 to SU 30.

JF17 is lightweight fighter.
SU30 is heavy weight interceptor and bomber aircraft.

Even though SU30 can carry more load in terms of fuel and weapons, the huge Radar Cross Section it has makes it as easy target for enemy radar. JF 17 can counter the threat with better engines and agility. Plus a better search radar and equipped missiles.

Remember when the bigger Mig 29s were inducted into the soviet air force for afghanistan, the mig 23 pilots were out performing the mig 29, because mig 29 was a new aircraft, plus the smaller mig 23 could hit and run. Straight dogfight, obviously Mig 29 would win hands down. But for the 4+ generation aircrafts, a lot also depends on the avionics. Thats why PAF is still evaluating different avionics. Not all JF17s will see dog fight. Some would be fitted with radars for better air to air combat. Some for CAS missions. and some for interceptor, because keep in mind that its the bomber/interceptor (Mirage/A5s/F-7) that the PAF is replacing.
Also, the current PAF chief has said, that PAF will have only 3 types of aircraft by 2015-16. Which means, the F-16s, total 60 in number and upgraded. 250 JF17s. That leaves (450-310)= 140 aircraft still to be made up. That would be 36 J-10s, which would be the evaluation squadrons and potential for more options. And yes, depending on how well PAF can integrate j-10s, the option for Gripens, Rafale and Typhoon is still open.
Also, If IAF goes with western planes, it will take them a long time to integrate and transform from soviet/russian infrastructure to western one. Flying planes from different parts of the world is generally more expensive. Not to mention the so terrible crash rates of Mig 21s in IAF.
SU 30s and Mig 29s are having same reliability/ safety issues.
Remember a few months back when IAF as par Russian Airforce grounded its Mig 29 fleet? What if its a war?

So i do see a bright picture for PAF in terms on combat aircraft. Pilot tactics do count a lot.

 

[pakpower]

We shouldn't be relaying on Pilots skills technology matters a lot in modern warfares.

 

[mughaljee]

We shouldn't be relaying on Pilots skills technology matters a lot in modern warfares.

I think 50-50