The Kargil Conflict Revisited

[Capt.Popeye]

pervez is as big a traitor and idiot as nawaz......

Correct in that assessment! They BOTH suckered the People of Pakistan as well as the Pakistani Army in 1999.
With what results? Over 1000 PA soldiers died needlessly. Lets leave all the other adverse effects aside for now.

 

[Saleem]

Who is patriot for you?

after Mr Jinnah, cannot really think of one who did not have some angle or the other......maybe sometime later I might come up with one......

 

[BATMAN]

What was the angle in Kargil operation?

 

[Saleem]

What was the angle in Kargil operation?

delusions of grandeur, self magnification ----vanity -"greatest warrior of all times, liberator of kashmir"...etc.

 

[BATMAN]

delusions of grandeur, self magnification ----vanity -"greatest warrior of all times, liberator of kashmir"...etc.

liberating Kashmir deserves all the titles.. i guesse he did for what he was trained all his life... we must understand it was hisjob.

He has all the permissions and authority to go ahead with Kargil.

Kargil design is now part of military text books.

 

[Mav3rick]

excuses excuses.. Mushy just wanted to hog all the credit and hence kept everyone out of the loop.. Unfortunately has ended up with all the blame

Incorrect assesment, success of the operation was critical to it remaining classified atleast until the peaks were occupied, that was successfully achieved. Failure was not of Musharraf but rather of NS who could not sustain international pressure and crumbled infront of Clinton thus ordering a retreat instead of supporting his army, his country!

excuses excuses.. 270 Pakistani graves are still on the Indian side in Kargil.. They must be turning in their graves hearing you say that they are Indians dressed in Pakistani uniforms

By turning in their graces you most likely mean how their ultimate sacrifice of being burried in Pakistani uniform instead of their own Indian uniform and still being exposed then I agree with you!

Still, they were buried / cremated on their home land.. Not abandoned, denied and left to rot in the enemy land like the NLI jawans who though were fortunate that we buried them with honor under the Pakistani flag

Well, being transported in garbage trucks must have left some stink, if not in the physical attributes then perhaps spiritual, unless your soldiers don't care how their bodies are handled after death. But good to know how you to want to cling on to the drama played by your soldiers of supposed NLI soldiers, even after being exposed!!

Still better than handing over the whole country for 8 years to the person who caused such an embarrassment to Pakistan in Kargil that Pakistan's PM had to go grovelling to USA ..

Rather, taking away the country from the tyrant who sold his country for US support to his own firm grip on the country. I mean how embarassing it must have been for the Indians that they had to send in 35k Army + 10 squadrons of IAF and still could not retake all the peaks..........not even until today!!!

Yes we do ....

Keep trying, you are getting there but there is still a long way to go....

 

[Saleem]

liberating Kashmir deserves all the titles.. i guesse he did for what he was trained all his life... we must understand it was hisjob.

He has all the permissions and authority to go ahead with Kargil.

Kargil design is now part of military text books.

I think you do not understand what a big disaster it was ----kargil was a sector that was held by on indian brigade ----it was a vulnerable sector which could have been exploited in a war ---it was in pakistans interest that no attention be attracted to it and india continues to ignore it----now they have a division plus there and ther is no way pakistan can dislodge them---

you do not understand that logistics is more difficult from the paksitan side ---access roads, trails heights slopes everything is easier from the indian side....

as for his training - he was not fit to do more than command a platoon or company at most----in one of the rebuttals to gen aziz, in arecent tv interview, he said it was a tactical operation and only a brigade was involved --just shows how incompetent as a general he is! if the brigade commander or even divsion [FCNA] commander did it on his own it shows serious lack of command and control -on the other hand if he approved it it shows he did not understand the very basis of operations let alone strategy --- india would concentrate all force on the area and if that failed attack elsewhere along the border --it makes common sense ---kargil is ffor the textbooks alright how not to launch an operation......aa tribute to military incompetence of the pervez team at GHQ.....

 

[Mav3rick]

The figure of 4000 is given by your Prime minister.. Not by India.. India's estimate was about 1000 dead.. But your own PM said that Pakistan lost 4000 men in Kargil fiasco..


Kargil probe body had sought Musharraf

Well, the figure of 1k deaths or less is given by your own Government as well as Pak Mil that around 450 soldiers were martyred. Ofcourse India has a bad habit of exaggerating losses on Pakistani side so 450 becomes almost 1k. In any case, either believe your Government on all matters, including their admittance of RSS & BJP involvement in terrorism that is blamed on Pakistan, or nothing at all.

Probably a need for personal glory.. Wanted the peace to be his legacy and not Nawaz Sharif's



But he is still living in Pakistan as an active politician. Its Musharraf who has run away and has a warrant in his name for murder charges and has been declared a fugitive by Pakistani courts..

Well, we have a long history of abandoning our heroes and crowning our tyrants.

Correct in that assessment! They BOTH suckered the People of Pakistan as well as the Pakistani Army in 1999.
With what results? Over 1000 PA soldiers died needlessly. Lets leave all the other adverse effects aside for now.

Pak Mil says roughly 450 soldies were martyred, their sacrifices were wasted by a politician when a soldier held the upper hand in Kargil. Things would have been so much different had NS not sold out in America.

 

[illusion8]

Nor is it time to discuss how Indian soldiers were orchestrating dramas depicting victories while dressing up their own soldiers in Pak Mil's uniforms and spreading false rumous about Pakistan not taking back their martyred soldiers which got exposed later on. It's also not the time to discuss how Indians had to bury their soldiers in mass graves and how they had to move their dead soldiers without coffins in garbage trucks!! And finally, it's not the time to discuss how shameful Indians acts where when they were awarding posthumous awards to soldiers who were still alive (and who hardly took part in the battles)!!

We all really need to move on, if we can......

Nice feel good attempt - it's like if you close your eyes and pretend everything's fine the monster under the bed will just vanish off.

Are you aware that you are just ridiculing the deaths of 1000's of your brave soldiers who were killed and who fought on without proper food or ammunition - Indians gave them more respect more than Pakistan by properly burying them under a Pakistani flag and honored them for the die hard fight they put up against all odds. While Pakistan air force and Navy and your GHQ just let them die there without supporting them and pretending those were Mujaheddin - it was only after many years did they release a few of the martyr's names and gave a few some bravery awards. You should be ashamed of your army higher ups.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

I think you do not understand what a big disaster it was ----kargil was a sector that was held by on indian brigade ----it was a vulnerable sector which could have been exploited in a war ---it was in pakistans interest that no attention be attracted to it and india continues to ignore it----now they have a division plus there and ther is no way pakistan can dislodge them---

you do not understand that logistics is more difficult from the paksitan side ---access roads, trails heights slopes everything is easier from the indian side....

as for his training - he was not fit to do more than command a platoon or company at most----in one of the rebuttals to gen aziz, in arecent tv interview, he said it was a tactical operation and only a brigade was involved --just shows how incompetent as a general he is! if the brigade commander or even divsion [FCNA] commander did it on his own it shows serious lack of command and control -on the other hand if he approved it it shows he did not understand the very basis of operations let alone strategy --- india would concentrate all force on the area and if that failed attack elsewhere along the border --it makes common sense ---kargil is ffor the textbooks alright how not to launch an operation......aa tribute to military incompetence of the pervez team at GHQ.....

You are unerringly accurate in your points.
Let us just think that it was an operation done by a Gen X of the Army of Y country and being fought between the Armies of Y and Z countries, if we (as people from Mars) were to analyse that operation; then these conclusions would be unescapable.

What started as a brilliantly opportunistic move ended up in a mess. It was because of limited thinking by just a few top Generals of Y Army, not because of the incompetence of Y Army. The movement started out with a limited vision to occupy posts which were known to be routinely vacated by troops of Z Army. When these troops of Y Army reached the nearest vacant posts and occupied them, they found that there were further posts ahead which had been vacated by Z Army. So they moved forward in a leap-frog fashion and occupied them as well.

But the problem was that Y Army planners (or at least the four planners) did not have a clear and coherent plan as to what would happen next, and most importantly how far they would go. This is because of the "Ad-Hoc thinking" of Gen X and his limited team, and the rest of Y Army simply had no idea of the scope of the Ops. So the PSOs of Y Army did not either make or execute a "Logistics Plan" to keep their forward troops re-supplied with either Ammo or Stores.

When Z Army realised what had happened, they retaliated and progressively escalated their response to awesome proportions. That was the denouement for the soldiers of Y. They were done for.

What was the "Great Tactical Brilliance" of Gen Y (and his small coterie) in embarking on a "half-baked plan" which was executed with such "Ad-Hocism"?

Even the "Men from Mars" will not be able to see this "Great Tactical Brilliance." I don't know who else can!

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Pak Mil says roughly 450 soldies were martyred, their sacrifices were wasted by a politician when a soldier held the upper hand in Kargil. Things would have been so much different had NS not sold out in America.

No; Col(r) Ashfaq Hussain the then Dy. Director of ISPR of the PA (i.e. PAK MIL)is on record that more than 1000 casualties were there. He has said it in his book "Witness to Blunder" in black and white as well on Pakistan TV so its undeniably documented. He also says that conscious efforts have been made by some people to suppress/fudge these figures. Incidentally he was the official PA spokesman at the time of the Kargil Fiasco.

BTW, he is not the only person to state these figures, even others have. Just as more will come out in future to substantiate these figures.
Just watch this space.

 

[Saleem]

No; Col(r) Ashfaq Hussain the then Dy. Director of ISPR of the PA (i.e. PAK MIL)is on record that more than 1000 casualties were there. He has said it in his book "Witness to Blunder" in black and white as well on Pakistan TV so its undeniably documented. He also says that conscious efforts have been made by some people to suppress/fudge these figures. Incidentally he was the official PA spokesman at the time of the Kargil Fiasco.

BTW, he is not the only person to state these figures, even others have. Just as more will come out in future to substantiate these figures.
Just watch this space.

casualties includes dead wounded missing and sick [think frostbite and exposure] in british scheme of things.....

 

[MilSpec]

Well, the figure of 1k deaths or less is given by your own Government as well as Pak Mil that around 450 soldiers were martyred. Ofcourse India has a bad habit of exaggerating losses on Pakistani side so 450 becomes almost 1k. In any case, either believe your Government on all matters, including their admittance of RSS & BJP involvement in terrorism that is blamed on Pakistan, or nothing at all.



Well, we have a long history of abandoning our heroes and crowning our tyrants.



Pak Mil says roughly 450 soldies were martyred, their sacrifices were wasted by a politician when a soldier held the upper hand in Kargil. Things would have been so much different had NS not sold out in America.

As pakistan military establishment is highly professional organisation, I wonder if there was any inquiry commission, which released official casualty, wounded, cost of conflict, root cause analysis???

If not, what do the military personal in pakistan claim about this particular conflict.

If you go by the likes of Lieutenant General Ali Kuli Khan Khattak, Lt. General Tariq Pervez, Lieutenant-General Jamshed Gulzar Kiani, General Mirza Aslam Beg, Colonel Ashfaq Hussain, Lieutenant General Talat Masood all seem to criticize the operation.....

 

[indushek]

Agreed.

Kargil affair has been discussed and beaten to death and the new book by LT Gen Shahid Aziz which reopened this debate says nothing new on the affair itself. In my opinion, primary purpose of the book is character assassination of Pervez Musharraf and getting cheap publicity for the author.

I haven’t read the book and only know excerpts that came up for discussions and from the comments of Gen Shahid Aziz on various talk shows. I have one very pertinent question. Gen Shahid Aziz was DGMO during October 1999 coup. Director General Military Operations virtually runs the whole Pakistan Army; this means that most of the military movement and the orders emanated from his desk.

It did not bother his conscience slightest bit when he was engineering the overthrow of an elected Prime Minister? Reminds me of Ghalib's famous couplet:

Ki merai qatal kay baad oos nay jafaa say tauba
Hi oos zood pashaimaan ka pashaimann hona.

(My beloved swore an oath to refrain from cruelty after murdering me, praise be on the repentance of that early repented) in other words what is the point of shutting the door of the stable after the horse has bolted?

This illustrates fickleness of the man and is indicative of the spineless character of some of the Pakistan Army top brass. I wouldn't put much weight on the words of such a turncoat!

Sir in one of the talk shows (the show was by moeed peerzada with ezaj haider and shaheed latif and another lady as panelists) he was asked the same question. He says in hindsight he thinks he has done a grave mistake, and the reason he gives is that there was a prevalent view in army circles and civilian too that Nawaz Sharif was a corrupt person and his rule was bad for the country. In view of this Mr. Musharraf told him that he only wanted to change the leadership and had no interest in ruling the country. He says that he believed in this explanation and played along.

 

[Mav3rick]

No; Col(r) Ashfaq Hussain the then Dy. Director of ISPR of the PA (i.e. PAK MIL)is on record that more than 1000 casualties were there. He has said it in his book "Witness to Blunder" in black and white as well on Pakistan TV so its undeniably documented. He also says that conscious efforts have been made by some people to suppress/fudge these figures. Incidentally he was the official PA spokesman at the time of the Kargil Fiasco.

BTW, he is not the only person to state these figures, even others have. Just as more will come out in future to substantiate these figures.
Just watch this space.

Well, we have different official figures from Pak Mil and from the Indian side, then we have official figures from commanders on the ground and various other retired Military high ups......we also have figures from NS. We may never know the actual figure, unless we rely on offical Pak Mil figures.

However, one has to consider the intention of the commander in chief of this operation and I can safely say that Musharraf held the best regards for Pakistan. His mistake was that he considered a tyrant to be an ally.

As pakistan military establishment is highly professional organisation, I wonder if there was any inquiry commission, which released official casualty, wounded, cost of conflict, root cause analysis???

If not, what do the military personal in pakistan claim about this particular conflict.

If you go by the likes of Lieutenant General Ali Kuli Khan Khattak, Lt. General Tariq Pervez, Lieutenant-General Jamshed Gulzar Kiani, General Mirza Aslam Beg, Colonel Ashfaq Hussain, Lieutenant General Talat Masood all seem to criticize the operation.....

All military men speak volumes of the operation, all politicians speak against it. I hope you understand my point.