The J-20-engine discussion is over and other speculative topics ... to separate from the J-20-news !

[ChineseTiger1986]

Chinese experts argues that for a heavy plane like J-20 and F-22 to achieve supersonic cruise, w/o afterburner, it's engine's Thrust to Weight Ratio (TWR), must be greater than 9.

And neither WS-10 and AL-31 could do it, because it's TWR is less than 8.

"引言：刀口大侠, 自从看到卖国贼, 居然P图造假歼20换国发, 气的一病不起，有鉴于国贼猖獗, 刀口大侠, 近日病榻发文, 以正视听！

原文：关于我们国家的歼-20飞机，这是一个国之重器，就像那航母一样, 是非常好的武器，所以它的一些战术技术性能数据, 是非常保密。

尽管, 它已经进行了, 一些飞行表演的试飞行动，但是, 包括我们的对手，包括那些最热情的军迷和发烧友，他们所猜测那些数据，其实我认为还差这个。

他没有解开这个谜底！还真没有看到这最主要的东西！凭表面尾喷等推测是错误的。

那么我们认为就是现在有些网上说，比如说歼-20的推力，最大发动机的推力可以达到14到15吨，（网传刚换太行B的谣言）

我觉得这些数据好像都不是十分准确。

我告诉大家一个情况，为了参加你这个节目，昨天晚上专门请教了一个非常权威性的航空工业专家（真*内部人士对比某些跳大神），他告诉我这样一个情况，那么这里不妨告诉大家，一些非常有意思的航空知识。（奉旨官泄）

发动机的推重比，什么意思，就是发动机最后工作这个推力，和发动机的重量要有一个比，比值越大发动机就越好。

应该说就可以达到那种，刚才您说叫超音速巡航。它要达到什么标准？推重比要达到9以上！

就是这个推力要和这个重量发动机量一比，达到9倍以上！这个才能够做超音速飞行！（基础知识打脸某些跳大神）

而今天这些小型军用飞机, 都不能达到这一点。比如说苏-27, 它那个推力, 只有12吨，那它发动机重量相当大，它达不到这个9的比重（打脸毛发三姨夫党）！

美国的F15推力, 只有10吨左右，它也达不到, 这种超音速巡航。

像“台风”更小了（讽刺台风伪超巡，同时打脸美媒认为的歼20是低超音速伪超巡）。

所以要达到, 第四代喷气式战斗机, 这种超音速巡航，就必须要在, 推重比上, 达到9以上。

我觉得, 我们这个歼-20, 为了要实现, 这种超音速巡航，就必要, 要在发动机上, 大做文章。我这个重量轻，推力大，这个推重比, 就能使飞机超音速巡航！（明确歼20使用的是, 推重比9以上的发动机）

就刚才您说的，不使用最多燃料的情况下，我就让它超音速飞行。这才是第四代战斗机的, 最突出的特点！（不开加力, 就能超巡, 才是真*四代机）

剩下的就是介绍, 铼镍超合金高机密叶片，是目前中国企业, 能够给国产战机提供的, 最新材料生产的叶片。

分析：超音速巡航发动机, 自身推重比, 必须要达到9以上，不开加力, 超巡持续时间至少30分钟以上。（目前已知只有F22能做到）

F119发动机生产型加力推力156KN=15918KG（9.8N=1KG），自重1714KG，推重比9.28

AL31三姨夫发动机加力推力为12500kg，推重比7.1

WS-10A太行A发动机加力推力为12800kg，推重比7.5~7.8

WS-10B太行B发动机加力推力为13200kg~140000kg，推重比8.1~8.2

歼20目前已经服役，对于歼20超巡能力，官方的表态，不管是珠海航展的杜文龙, 还是朱日和阅兵的歼20飞行员张日天，都明确表示, 歼20超音速巡航, 能力优秀！

三姨夫和太行的推重比都达不到9，都不能超音速巡航！

因此真相只有一个：歼20早已装备WS15发动机。"



The close up of both fake pictures look identical. It is most likely they are faked by the same lousy faker. If "科京同志" posted the second picture first, it is also mostly likely, he knows the faker, or he, himself, is the faker.

First, he got caught up by some netizens with the original pic of the prototype 2011, then awkwardly admitted that the second pic was PSed. Thus, the credibility of the originator of these pics is becoming skeptical right now.

Again, with the CCTV-4 also starts to question about the credibility of these online pics, the whole engine thing is far from being concluded.

BTW, Mr. Daokou is fine, he recently just gave a new lecture about the incoming JL-3 SLBM in his WeChat.

 

[Asoka]

They are not the same, surely not. And while the first image of the yellow bird is blurred, showing an unfinished engine installation with the panels misding - in fact nothing special - shows the second image on a very clear image a blurred nozzle, which is slightly smaller than it should be and exactly the same gap.

The are identically P.S. by the same faker, "an idiot with too much time and not enough talent ...", as you have said.

If the second picture, was just a local blown up picture, like the first, the fan-boys would use it to claim that its an additional proof, that J-20 is using WS-10. But the details of the whole picture, gave it away. And You immediately caught that.

Thank you, for pointing it out, in your page 623 post.

BRAVO, I said.

The faker shoot himself in the head, with his second picture.

 

[Deino]

...
The close up of both fake pictures look identical. It is most likely they are faked by the same lousy faker. If "科京同志" posted the second picture first, it is also mostly likely, he knows the faker, or he, himself, is the faker.

Stop. Now you go too far. 科京同志
Is one of the most respected posters here. Calm down with such stupid accusations.

The are identically P.S. by the same faker, "an idiot with too much time and not enough talent ...", as you have said.

Thank you, for pointing it out, in your page 623 post.

The two grey birds 2011 and that alleged grey 2021 are the same. But the bkurred yellow one is not the same as the faked grey 2021. You must get too less sleep that you do not notice.

 

[Asoka]

"But the blurred yellow one, is not the same, as the faked grey 2021. You must get too less sleep, that you do not notice."

I did not said, the grey and yellow pictures, are the same picture. I am just saying, the WS-10 nozzles, are identically faked, in both pictures, by the same faker.

There is a big difference, here. @Deino.

"科京同志 Is one of the most respected posters here. "

Either your most respected poster, "科京同志", knows the faker, or he IS the faker, himself.

He owes us, an explanation, on how he got the second fake picture.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Stop. Now you go too far. 科京同志
Is one of the most respected posters here. Calm down with such stupid accusations.

When he posted the second pics and didn't immediately point out it as a PSed pic, this really put his credibility in an awkward position.

I just checked his Weibo, he clearly got caught up by some netizens with the original pic of the prototype 2011.

BTW, if we still couldn't see the so-called prototype 2021 taking into the sky, then this entire theory from AL-31FM to WS-10X should definitely be discarded. Just look at the J-10B/C, even it currently doesn't equip with the WS-10 in large number, but there were still few prototypes flew with the WS-10. And now, if we couldn't even see a single prototype flying with the WS-10X, then something is definitely fishy, even phony.

 

[Asoka]

When he posted the second pics and didn't immediately point out it as a PSed pic, this really put his credibility in an awkward position.

I just checked his Weibo, he clearly got caught up by some netizens with the original pic of the prototype 2011.

BTW, if we still couldn't see the so-called prototype 2021 taking into the sky, then this entire theory from AL-31FM to WS-10X should definitely be discarded. Just look at the J-10B/C, even it currently doesn't equip with the WS-10 in large number, but there were still few prototypes flew with the WS-10. And now, if we couldn't even see a single prototype flying with the WS-10X, then something is definitely fishy, even phony.

'if we still couldn't see the so-called prototype 2021 taking into the sky, then this entire theory from AL-31FM to WS-10X should definitely be discarded"

There is no prototype 2021. The picture is entirely a fake, just ask @Deino, if you don't believe me. It is he, who pointed it out, first.

This ridiculous" theory from AL-31FM to WS-10X" is based entirely on a blurry, local picture, showing only the nozzles. It has no source or name attached to it. The possibility that it could be a P.S. picture, should be obvious to any serious astute observer.

 

[Deino]

We simply need to be patient. Give it a few more days, i thrust him.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

We simply need to be patient. Give it a few more days, i thrust him.

I also hope so.

But remember, no big shrimp is absolutely immortal, even for a heavyweight expert like POP3. I have clearly witnessed how his credibility has fallen from heaven to hell, even though the misprediction about the EMALS swap was clearly not his fault, but he was just getting too overconfident with his own expertise and authority.

 

[Figaro]

That CJDBY Gongke101 poster needs to go. He claims to be a Liyang employee and spreads false figures about the WS-10B thrust level (he absolutely insists on the 13.2 tonne thrust level even though it has been refuted by Pupu). Gongke101 also claims that the WS-15 hasn't even begun ground testing yet????? WHAT??? I'm sure many of you guys have seen his posts and fanboys.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

That CJDBY Gongke101 poster needs to go. He claims to be a Liyang employee and spreads false figures about the WS-10B thrust level (he absolutely insists on the 13.2 tonne thrust level even though it has been refuted by Pupu). Gongke101 also claims that the WS-15 hasn't even begun ground testing yet????? WHAT??? I'm sure many of you guys have seen his posts and fanboys.

The CD forum has lost its impartiality long time ago, since they seem to worship the authority of few online big shrimps over the factual evidence.

 

[Figaro]

The CD forum has lost its impartiality long time ago, since they seem to worship the authority of few online big shrimps over the factual evidence.

The credibility of some naval "Big Shrimps" kind of went downhill when the 001A was actually revealed to be called the 002. These so-called insiders should've known at the very least what designation it was going to receive. I think that FzgFzy guy was quite accurate a couple years ago but I'm not sure now. Regardless, the most reliable PLAAF big shrimp for me is still Pupu. But then again, if the CJDBY rumor is correct about the J-20 being the future naval fighter, that would restore credibility to a forum tainted by the likes of Gongke101 and various other posers.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

The credibility of some naval "Big Shrimps" kind of went downhill when the 001A was actually revealed to be called the 002. These so-called insiders should've known at the very least what designation it was going to receive. I think that FzgFzy guy was quite accurate a couple years ago but I'm not sure now. Regardless, the most reliable PLAAF big shrimp for me is still Pupu.

To me, their credibility on both PLAAF and PLAN seem to go down hill.

The misinformation about the Type 001A and steam catapult was already a huge blow to their credibility on the PLAN, and now someone even starts to challenge them on the nuclear vs non-nuclear propulsion of the Type 003. If they lose this bet again, then it is hard to see how many audience they could have left.

Now for the PLAAF, if the whole prototype 2021 turns out to be nothing but a mere scam for the rating and viewership, then we can clearly conclude that the CD forum will become history.

 

[Figaro]

He claimed to have consulted an expert from the Chinese aviation domain that the J-20 can only have a super powerful engine with the TWR above 9 in order to meet the demand.

He openly rejects any possibility with the AL-31, which implies that the WS-10 also doesn't meet the demand.



The new pic is clearly PSed.

By doing this, they are clearly shooting themselves on the foot.

Mr. Chen Hong is a Senior Colonel of the PLAAF. And he claimed to have consulted to a Chinese aviation expert before making the comment about the J-20 engine.

And I saw some people nitpicking him for making the blunder about the Su-35 using the AESA radar in the past. Thus, they are trying to discredit him entirely along with the CCTV-4.

View attachment 425525

I trust him. He ought to know a bit more than we do since he's in the PLAAF. Unlike some PLAN commentators who talk about the J-20 despite no aviation experience. It is very likely that the colonel does have connections to with Chinese aviation industries. Can I ask when this comment was made?

To me, their credibility on both PLAAF and PLAN seem to go down hill.

The misinformation about the Type 001A and steam catapult was already a huge blow to their credibility on the PLAN, and now someone even starts to challenge them on the nuclear vs non-nuclear propulsion of the Type 003. If they lose this bet again, then it is hard to see how many audience they could have left.

Now for the PLAAF, if the whole prototype 2021 turns out to be nothing but a mere scam for the rating and viewership, then we can clearly conclude that the CD forum will become history.

The 2021 prototype was based on a very basic drawing with the markings 2021 and some "sawtooth" nozzles. I personally believe it is real but we'll have to see. The picture with the WS-10X however appears to be real while the PS photo is an obvious fake.

"It's very hard to PS this if it really is ... in fact, it might even be impossible. "

What are you talking about? Are you blind? "it might even be impossible. "? The one with the serial 2021 is an obvious fake, that even @Deino, can tell easily. And both pictures's close up, are identical, with its glaring BIG GAPs, near the nozzle.

These two pictures's nozzles looks identical, how could it be possible to fake one, but impossible to fake the another one?

Where did you learn your Logic 101?

View attachment 425523 View attachment 425524

Oh come on. You are overestimating the capabilities of photo-shoppers. As you saw with the 2021 PS (aka 2011), it was extremely poorly done and pathetically obvious. The first WS-10X photo looks like a legitimate photo taken near the nozzles ... (it would be exceptionally difficult to PS or draw that). If you are still that stubborn, I can consult my graphic-designer friend ...

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

I trust him. He ought to know a bit more than we do since he's in the PLAAF. Unlike some PLAN commentators who talk about the J-20 despite no aviation experience. It is very likely that the colonel does have connections to with Chinese aviation industries. Can I ask when this comment was made?


The 2021 prototype was based on a very basic drawing with the markings 2021 and some "sawtooth" nozzles. I personally believe it is real but we'll have to see. The picture with the WS-10X however appears to be real while the PS photo is an obvious fake.

From few years ago, I did remember that Mr. Chen Hong also supported the theory of the J-20 powered by the AL-31F.

But today, his stance seems to have a 180 degree U-turn compared to his stance from few years ago. And he does imply that the WS-15 is the only option to power the current J-20.

 

[Asoka]

We simply need to be patient. Give it a few more days, i thrust him.

"We simply need to be patient. Give it a few more days, i thrust him."

WELL, Mr. Deino, this "科京同志" has implicated himself, in this faking operation, by putting his name, on this second fake picture. Even he might not know, that was a fake, at the time of uploading it, (which I very much doubt), he must know, who gave it to him, so he could post it.

He owes us an explanation on, how he got involved, in this faking operation, who contacted him, who pass on the fake picture to him.

I trust him. He ought to know a bit more than we do since he's in the PLAAF. Unlike some PLAN commentators who talk about the J-20 despite no aviation experience. It is very likely that the colonel does have connections to with Chinese aviation industries. Can I ask when this comment was made?


The 2021 prototype was based on a very basic drawing with the markings 2021 and some "sawtooth" nozzles. I personally believe it is real but we'll have to see. The picture with the WS-10X however appears to be real while the PS photo is an obvious fake.


Oh come on. You are overestimating the capabilities of photo-shoppers. As you saw with the 2021 PS (aka 2011), it was extremely poorly done and pathetically obvious. The first WS-10X photo looks like a legitimate photo taken near the nozzles ... (it would be exceptionally difficult to PS or draw that). If you are still that stubborn, I can consult my graphic-designer friend ...

"The first WS-10X photo looks like a legitimate photo taken near the nozzles ... (it would be exceptionally difficult to PS or draw that)"

No need to over think it. They are identically P.S. at the same angle, onto different J-20 pictures, with the same WS-10 nozzle picture. Both jobs shows the same shoddy handiwork by a poor Photoshoppers, by leaving a huge and obvious gap near the nozzle.