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The Indian Rafale: Why Pakistan Should Celebrate! -Opinion (ALL Rafale posts here please)

finally india has ordered lots of hawk trainers



russian aircraft are harder to maintain
paf will learn it the hard way when they shell $80 million for Su-35
finally india has ordered lots of hawk trainers



russian aircraft are harder to maintain
paf will learn it the hard way when they shell $80 million for Su-35

su 35 has 6000 hours life span f22 raptor 8000 hours. A huge improvement in total titanium airframe and much improved engine with 360 degree tvc. Man time is changing fast.

The rafale has not been purchased to win air superiority.

Refale carrys a 500km range scalp cruse missle and will be Indian tip of spear strike package.

The air supremacy is taken by 350..su30mki and mig29 fighters.

Rafale mirage20000/5 and jaguar will represent attack squadrons
The rafale has not been purchased to win air superiority.

Refale carrys a 500km range scalp cruse missle and will be Indian tip of spear strike package.

The air supremacy is taken by 350..su30mki and mig29 fighters.

Rafale mirage20000/5 and jaguar will represent attack squadrons

Dear fellow which one is superiority fighter in fact among all you coated. su 30 mk1 can be easily countered by f16..PAF is trained to do it...dear
 
Good move by InAF, doesnt add any new capability they don't already have but they will get a aircraft with good operational capability. Mirage I think has the best availability rate in InAF, proven during Kargil. According to your own media current fleet avg availability rate is at 53%.

And for PAF finally some needed respite, I think planners here were waiting since long for the Rafael deal to go through so we can finally buy ourselves a new platform without much hue raised from across the border. In the past years FC-20/J-10 were not bought because Rafael tender was delayed. PAF now has a excuse to make expenses, so expect a purchase announcement for another platform in the upcoming months.
 
su 35 has 6000 hours life span f22 raptor 8000 hours. A huge improvement in total titanium airframe and much improved engine with 360 degree tvc. Man time is changing fast.




Dear fellow which one is superiority fighter in fact among all you coated. su 30 mk1 can be easily countered by f16..PAF is trained to do it...dear
good for you,now start searching if someone is selling EFF sola in second's.
 
Definitely a very good strong move. PAF has a high wall to climb. M-88-2 with 17000 lbs thrust each is a modular engine with low operative cost, minimal maintenance. 2E4 has lower fuel connsumption, reduce emissions, low IFR and a smaller size. Its plane with a great engine. Wakeup call for us.
 
Hi
Rafale is going to be game changer ,reason being its stand off weaponry and BVR`s ,Dog fight era is over and spectra is an excellent offensive and defensive suite . Best part of the deal for IAF is reinvestment in many sub system and giant leap for Teja (if it remains relevant) till that time . Rafale + Mirages in formation are deadly combination (Add Teja with same avionic suite) so yes this is going to be a big threat for PAF . Luckily for PAF they have 36 months time plus add another 12 months may be for fully used to and develop tactics . F16 are good platform but lack evolution due to US restriction other wise SABER was perfect and cheap package .Chinese options are J10C /J31 both have pro and cons but 36- 50 jets are quite due now just to add another dimension .Russian SU35 remains a dark horse lets see .
 
rafale-to-give-indian-air-force-combat-edge-over-pakistan-s-f-16s-1474696558-1436.jpg


NEW DELHI: It's finally jet, set and go for the IAF after an agonising wait of 16 years since it first demanded new multi-role fighters. India and France on Friday inked a 7.87 billion euro deal for 36 Rafale fighters, which with their state of the art 150-km range Meteor air-to-air missiles will have a clear combat edge over Pakistan's F-16 jets.



India will get the first Rafale in three years, with all 36 touching down by early-2022. Till then, in the event of a conflict, India will have to deploy two Sukhoi-30MKIs to tackle each Pakistani F-16 due to the latter's superior weapons package, including 80-km range missiles. But once the Rafales are inducted, Pakistan will have to deploy two F-16s for each of them.

Simplistic analogies apart, the Rafale will certainly be a potent force-multiplier for the IAF, capable as it is of also delivering nuclear weapons. The inter-governmental agreement (IGA), inked by defence minister Manohar Parrikar and his French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian here in South Block, does not put any restriction on the fighter being used as a "strategic platform", said sources.

Parrikar himself was quite gung-ho about the deal. "Rafale is a very potent fighter that will add to the IAF's airpower and deep-strike capabilities," he said. Le Drian added, "The Rafale is really the best fighter jet in the world. It is an omni-role aircraft capable of all kinds of missions."French aircraft manufacturer Dassault Aviation's CEO Eric Trappier said the Rafale was more in competition with the American F-35 fifth-generation fighter because it was "a generation ahead" of the F-16. But the Rafales do cost a packet. The fighters themselves may cost around Rs 700 crore a piece. But the per unit cost zooms to Rs 1,640 crore if the overall deal is taken into account, which includes a decidedly deadly weapons package, all spares and costs for 75% fleet availability and "performance-based logistics support" for five years.

Moreover, the Rafales will be tweaked to specific Indian requirements, which range from the capability for "cold start at high-altitude regions like Leh" to Israeli helmet-mounted displays, advanced missile warning and synthetic aperture radars.

Government sources said India had saved+ through some hardnosed bargaining over the original MMRCA (medium multi role combat aircraft) project be ing negotiated by the previous UPA regime. Moreover, the Rafales will come with much better weapons and maintenance support packages now.

"The Meteor missile is superior to any such missile in the region. The over 300km Scalp air-to ground cruise missile also has two-metre precision capability. Rafale also has a faster turnaround time, capable of undertaking five sorties in a day. The other fighters we have can do only three sorties at the most," said a source.

The Rafale deal also has a 50% offsets clause, under which France will have to plough half of the actual contract value back into India. "This has huge potential to generate direct and indirect employment opportunities in India," he added.Induction of the Rafales will certainly be a strong booster dose for the IAF.

Courtesy TOI

Source: http://nation.com.pk/international/...n-air-force-combat-edge-over-pakistan-s-f-16s


Yes it's truth and we agree we should accept the reality as Pakistani we do Indians never

PAF has to get stop gap jet since we lack twin engine jet old mirages in numbers are at end of life SU 35 makes fitting in PAF it bring new capabilities cover the rafale threat 40 SU 35 we need
 
I don't think there will be an edge over Pakistan because firstly india still have to wait for 2019 to get its first Rafale, secondly since US pulled over the deal of giving Pakistan the remaining F-16 Fighter Jets , Deputy director of export promotion services Pakistan stated that "It would look elsewhere for far more capable fighter jets in order to maintain balance in the region" - Qadir Khan said,

"Pakistan is involved in negotiations with Russia on a deal for su-35 and su-37 fighter jets."
The statement comes in response to the US by the Pakistan when US pulled out a F-16 deal. He also added that "We already ahve Russian Mi-17 , but we are looking for helicraft , we are looking at assessment of Mi-35 to buy in the near future".
So if US can think by pulling out of a deal we will beg you to supply the fighter jets to us then you are mistaken there are a lot who wishes to improve bilateral ties with Pakistan. Pakistan and Russia could have better ties long time ago but there are couple of reasons they lack that trustworthiness ,
1-Pakistan army fought against Russian army when Russia attacked Afghanistan saving our brothers but we didn't knew that the so called brother could turn out to be enemy when their mean will be fulfilled.
2-Pakistan always thought of being close to US and india being close to Russia, now india has improved its bilateral ties and india is equally closed to both US and Russia , and meanwhile US pulled out of a deal the time is perfect for Pakistan to build the Bilateral ties and improving their foreign policy with the Russia regardless of what happened in the past. Russian army also arrived in Pakistan a day ago for the joint war exercises with Pakistan Army so these steps are important in bringing both the countries close. Hoping for the best. Pakistan Zindaabaad
The Soukhoi su-35 and su-37 are shown below in ascending order respectively.

Russian-Su-35-.jpg
Soukhoï_Su-37.jpg
 
Today marks the official signing of the long awaited, discussed, contested contract of Rafale aircraft for Indian Air Force. Enter the first western designed fifth generation multi-role fighter aircraft, most suitable for Indian desire of airspace domination over the sub-continent.

However, I find today as the real reason for celebration across many circles, including Pakistan's military community. Why, you may reckon? The procurement of 36 Rafales is exactly where India should not be.

Here is my opinion!

A) The selection of Rafale, after many painstaking years was to replace the Migs of India, which are in hundreds. Out of 120 aircraft, only 36 are being procured, which defeats the purpose of the induction.

B) The French Dassault are notoriously expensive. The "cost through life" of their bird is 6 times any of its contemporary, ensuring that budget will always be short, and always be tight.

C) Till the time the aircraft capabilities are fully realized, it would already be fully neutralized by competitive procurements in the region.

D) Once Indian pilots fly the Rafale, the interest in TEJAS will diminish further, creating an internal battle of buying foreign versus building local, hence jeopardizing both programs.

E) The Rafale aircraft purchase kills the "make in india" dream of the Modi government, which shows that this decision is a panic decision to stop gap fill the entirely low serviceability rates of IAF, combined with shrinking squadron numbers and lack of pilots.

F) The Rafale deal essentially closes the door in Indian Air Force for BAE Systems Eurofighter Typhoon, and BAE Systems ES products. This will re-open the opportunity of other countries to access the platform/avionics from these sources.

G) Rafale program is essentially a lame duck political approach, which exemplifies the military policy of the state being run by civilians, never coming up to the expectation of uniformed professionals.

H) Rafale deal is highly suspected of big bribes from the French to all levels within the Indian administration, MOD, and IAF, which will eventually come out and further derail any future procurement plans of IAF to meet the existing and future requirements.

Kya bhai, kuch bhi likhne ke 65 likes. No shortage of fans.

Give me such tips too. :)

4 reasons why Rafale could ruin Modi and Parrikar's party

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4 reasons why Rafale could ruin Modi and Parrikar's party
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September 23, 2016 09:47 IST


Ajai Shukla explains why there is considerable discomfort within the defence ministry about the Rafale deal.

15lead1.jpg


On a warm Delhi evening on April 3, 2015, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had left his South Block office and was driving to catch his flight to Goa, when his mobile phone received an incoming call from the Prime Minister's Office.

Could he come in urgently, an official asked, the PM would like to talk briefly.

When Parrikar reached the PMO, Prime Minister Narendra Modi sprang a bombshell.

Parrikar was told that, on Modi's forthcoming trip to Paris, he and French President Francois Hollande would announce an agreement for India to buy 36 Rafale fighters.

During Modi's nine-day tour of France, Germany and Canada, Parrikar would have to manage the media and field the inevitable questions.

Taken aback, Parrikar still caught his flight to Goa. Over the next week, he batted loyally on behalf of his PM, publicly defending a decision he neither understood nor agreed with, that was taken over his head, and that senior ministry of defence officials warned him would be difficult to defend.

Today, 17 months later, most pledges that Parrikar issued in defence of Modi's Rafale agreement have proven incorrect.

He told the Press Trust of India in Goa that all 36 Rafale fighters would join the IAF within two years; in fact more than six years will elapse before the final delivery is made.

He repeated the Modi-Hollande undertaking that the price would be 'on terms that would be better than' Dassault's bid in the now cancelled tender for 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft. It now turns out that India will pay a vastly higher price.

But Parrikar, through 17 months of defending a deal that was not his, has become the face of the Rafale.

And after Friday, when he and his visiting French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian sign an inter-governmental agreement for 36 Rafales, Parrikar -- and not Modi -- will answer for the purchase.

There is disquiet within the MoD about the acquisition, with officials concerned about subsequent scrutiny by Constitutional authorities like the Comptroller and Auditor General. Their key worries are as follows.

Exorbitant cost

A key element in price negotiations is 'benchmarking', or comparing Dassault's price with other contracts involving the same fighter.

With India, Dassault had already established a benchmark in the MMRCA acquisition, where it had quoted a price for 18 fully built Rafales, just like the 36 fighters that India is now buying.

Speaking to Doordarshan on April 13, 2015, Parrikar had revealed Rafale's bid for 126 fighters, stating: 'When you talk of 126 (Rafale) aircraft, it becomes a purchase of about Rs 90,000 crore' -- Rs 715 crore per fighter after adding all costs.

Now Parrikar would be buying 36 Rafale fighters for Euro 7.8 billion (over Rs 58,000 crore), which is over Rs 1,600 crore per aircraft -- more than double the earlier price.

True, the current contract includes elements that were not there in the 126 fighter MMRCA tender -- including a superior weapons package with Meteor missiles; and performance-based logistics, which bind Dassault to ensure that a stipulated percentage of the Rafale fleet remains combat-ready at all times. The percentage is guessed to be about 75 to 80 per cent, an unchallenging target for Western fighter types.

Even deducting Euro 2.8 billion for the weapons and PBL from the anticipated Euro 7.8 billion contract amount, a Euro 5 billion (over Rs 37,000 crore) price tag for 36 Rafales puts the ticker price of each at over Rs 1,000 crore.

For that the IAF can buy two-and-a-half Sukhoi-30 MKI fighters -- a heavy fighter as capable as the Rafale.

Variation in fighter types

IAF logisticians, who already struggle to maintain, repair and support six different types of fighters -- the Sukhoi-30MKI, Mirage 2000, Jaguar, MiG-29, MiG-27, MiG-21 and the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft -- are hardly welcoming the prospect of a seventh fighter type, which would require expensive, tailor-made base infrastructure, repair depots and spare parts chains.

Air power experts say more Sukhoi-30MKIs would eliminate this need, besides being cheaper.

Alternatively, fast-tracking the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft, which Russia and India intend to co-develop, would eliminate the need for Rafales.

Even if the IAF exercises an option clause for 18 more Rafales, there would be just three operational squadrons, like with the Mirage 2000.

Besides the options clause, nine more Rafales would be needed, since an IAF squadron has 21 fighters.

Sovereign guarantees

While New Delhi is negotiating the Rafale purchase directly with the private vendor, Dassault, the MoD wants sovereign guarantees from the French government, of the kind that come with American equipment bought through the Foreign Military Sales route.

In a FMS procurement -- India's C-130J Super Hercules purchase -- the US Department of Defence (the Pentagon) sets up a dedicated 'project management team' that negotiates on the buyer's behalf, beating down the price, establishing training and logistics support, and providing assurance that the buyer gets everything needed to operate and maintain the product.

Alongside FMS support, corruption is deterred by the stringent US Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, which vendors seldom dare to violate. This provides comfort to Indian MoD officials against subsequent allegations raised against a deal.

Paris, in contrast, is only willing to give a lukewarm written assurance of support with the Rafale -- something that the MoD refers to disparagingly as a 'comfort letter.'

Piecemeal contracting

India needs some 200 to 300 fighters to replace the MiG-21 and MiG-27 fleet that is being phased out of service. Just 36 Rafales provides little cover, so the IAF hopes to buy not just 18 more under the options clause, but perhaps another tranche later.

MoD officials complain that piecemeal contracting provides little leverage for beating down prices.

The same problem will afflict the procurement of the Gripen NG, or F-16s, which the MoD is weighing as possible options to replace retiring fighters.

With an IGA in the offing, and a formal contract yet to be negotiated, New Delhi would still have the opportunity to address these issues, say MoD officials.

Yet, the IGA on Friday will be celebrated in the IAF as a giant step towards a fighter they have pursued tenaciously for 15 years.



http://www.rediff.com/news/column/f...ld-ruin-modi-and-parrikars-party/20160923.htm

Maybe or Maybe not.

The writer was sleeping when UPA brought this same nach gana drama in 2006. If Modi would have cancelled this tender, UPA would have gone gaga. Now that Modi has done it, its Modi's fault.

There are a lot of double dholkis who talk something in Lutyens and write something in newspapers.
 
Sadly the Rafale would just dominate the F-16 if the two were ever to meet.

maybe if Pakistan had F-16 blk 60s with AIM-120D it would stand a better chance.

Rafale loaded out with 6 Meteors. 2 MICA-IR, 2 MICA-RF, would be a deadly combo for any aircraft even stealth.
 
I hate this F-16 VS F-16 Theory :pissed: . I just want to bomb America with a lot of Nuclear ICBMs. :mad: Plz test Taimur ICBM on America.
 
Let the IAF get their Rafales...it is a great jet. But when PAF orders 8 new F-16s then suddenly the Indian government loses their minds :p:...
 
rafale-to-give-indian-air-force-combat-edge-over-pakistan-s-f-16s-1474696558-1436.jpg


NEW DELHI: It's finally jet, set and go for the IAF after an agonising wait of 16 years since it first demanded new multi-role fighters. India and France on Friday inked a 7.87 billion euro deal for 36 Rafale fighters, which with their state of the art 150-km range Meteor air-to-air missiles will have a clear combat edge over Pakistan's F-16 jets.



India will get the first Rafale in three years, with all 36 touching down by early-2022. Till then, in the event of a conflict, India will have to deploy two Sukhoi-30MKIs to tackle each Pakistani F-16 due to the latter's superior weapons package, including 80-km range missiles. But once the Rafales are inducted, Pakistan will have to deploy two F-16s for each of them.

Simplistic analogies apart, the Rafale will certainly be a potent force-multiplier for the IAF, capable as it is of also delivering nuclear weapons. The inter-governmental agreement (IGA), inked by defence minister Manohar Parrikar and his French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian here in South Block, does not put any restriction on the fighter being used as a "strategic platform", said sources.

Parrikar himself was quite gung-ho about the deal. "Rafale is a very potent fighter that will add to the IAF's airpower and deep-strike capabilities," he said. Le Drian added, "The Rafale is really the best fighter jet in the world. It is an omni-role aircraft capable of all kinds of missions."French aircraft manufacturer Dassault Aviation's CEO Eric Trappier said the Rafale was more in competition with the American F-35 fifth-generation fighter because it was "a generation ahead" of the F-16. But the Rafales do cost a packet. The fighters themselves may cost around Rs 700 crore a piece. But the per unit cost zooms to Rs 1,640 crore if the overall deal is taken into account, which includes a decidedly deadly weapons package, all spares and costs for 75% fleet availability and "performance-based logistics support" for five years.

Moreover, the Rafales will be tweaked to specific Indian requirements, which range from the capability for "cold start at high-altitude regions like Leh" to Israeli helmet-mounted displays, advanced missile warning and synthetic aperture radars.

Government sources said India had saved+ through some hardnosed bargaining over the original MMRCA (medium multi role combat aircraft) project be ing negotiated by the previous UPA regime. Moreover, the Rafales will come with much better weapons and maintenance support packages now.

"The Meteor missile is superior to any such missile in the region. The over 300km Scalp air-to ground cruise missile also has two-metre precision capability. Rafale also has a faster turnaround time, capable of undertaking five sorties in a day. The other fighters we have can do only three sorties at the most," said a source.

The Rafale deal also has a 50% offsets clause, under which France will have to plough half of the actual contract value back into India. "This has huge potential to generate direct and indirect employment opportunities in India," he added.Induction of the Rafales will certainly be a strong booster dose for the IAF.

Courtesy TOI

Source: http://nation.com.pk/international/...n-air-force-combat-edge-over-pakistan-s-f-16s
Because 300+ Su-30MKIs hadn't already given the IAF this edge?

The fact is the first 36 Rafales (and much of the follow on units) will be deployed in the East and North, not on the Western front, the IAF has had the Western sector covered for a long long time, now the "pivot" is in effect, West to East the focus goes.
 
Because 300+ Su-30MKIs hadn't already given the IAF this edge?

The fact is the first 36 Rafales (and much of the follow on units) will be deployed in the East and North, not on the Western front, the IAF has had the Western sector covered for a long long time, now the "pivot" is in effect, West to East the focus goes.
Lot of Media boggling Mate Find a Serious Defense thread is hard in PDF these days
 
in the event of a conflict, India will have to deploy two Sukhoi-30MKIs to tackle each Pakistani F-16 due to the latter's superior weapons package, including 80-km range missiles. But once the Rafales are inducted, Pakistan will have to deploy two F-16s for each of them.

1 F-16 = 2 SU-30
1 Rafale = 2 F-16

So 1 Rafale = 4 Su-30, right? :devil:

SOOOOOO by buying 36 Rafales, India is getting 144 MKIs!
Their squadron problem is just about solved, is it not?
:smart:
:yay:Tay.
 

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