The Indian Rafale: Why Pakistan Should Celebrate! -Opinion (ALL Rafale posts here please)

[Humble Analyst]

One thing is there Rafale is the 2nd or third best plane and the best multi role fighter. For air superiority EU Fighter is slightly better and off course F22 is the best money can buy. So instead of putting our head in the sand and celebrating enemies superiority let us think of countering them. Just my 2 cents please do not be mad at me as I am not being pro India, merely stating the facts. Let us get out of the "Hunooz Dilli door asat" mentality. Fighting a war needs sentiments but sentiments alone cannot be the only weapon.

 

[YeBeWarned]

To be very honest,PAF lost the edge over IAF the day IAF inducted SU-30MKI. We can wish whatever we like but rafale will further widen up the technological balance in favour of IAF. Rafale+Meteor package is something PAF will have no equivalent in foreseeable future.I am talking purely in terms of capabilities of meteor from BVR perspective.

I agree and disagree with your post , IAF does have some Edge over PAF but you have to keep few points in mind ..
1- Indian Size and Air space IAF has to cover , its not that IAF will be stationing the entire IAF fleets against PAF, in fact if you examine the battle readiness of IAF , the numbers will come par with PAF which have almost 95% of its Air Craft been battle ready ..

rest if you want to feel happy about it , you can all you want .. PAF have no plans to have Air superiority over Indian Sky's they will just defend their with help of a NET centeric Environment , AWACS , SAM's and Drones .

 

[ziaulislam]

To be very honest,PAF lost the edge over IAF the day IAF inducted SU-30MKI. We can wish whatever we like but rafale will further widen up the technological balance in favour of IAF. Rafale+Meteor package is something PAF will have no equivalent in foreseeable future.I am talking purely in terms of capabilities of meteor from BVR perspective.

come on, PAF has never had an edge over IAF, never in the past, never in the future, how can 10 times smaller country have an edge over you...its time to get out of your inferiority complex

only reason why PAF did better in 1965 was older war fare era, poor planning and surprise and aggressive early tactics, even than PAF never really destroyed IAF and war was equally balanced, infact today IAF claims it won 1965 war too(Despite losing more aircrafts)

 

[YeBeWarned]

If under development shyt (which mostly ends up like every other embarrassment) is equal to F-22s and whatnot ...


It's quiet possible for a Block 4 to be on par with a rafale aswell..

We have already planned the JF Block III to be superior or on par with block 52+.

Deal with it.

You know brother, PAF does not need to get hyper with all those Shiny toys in our neighborhood , cause PAF will not be in Aggressive stand , they will wait and and fight on venues where it suites them with cover of SAM's and AWACS..
but apart from that, we do need another 4+ or 4++ gen Fighter , Su series is kinda out of Picture but if Pakistan's Economy gets a brighter turn , we can put a order of 1-2 Sqs of Euro Fighter .. or Chinese j-series that will .. i hight doubt that PAF will be looking for more f-16's after the Bitc*ing of US on those subsidized F-16's ..

 

[ziaulislam]

Today marks the official signing of the long awaited, discussed, contested contract of Rafale aircraft for Indian Air Force. Enter the first western designed fifth generation multi-role fighter aircraft, most suitable for Indian desire of airspace domination over the sub-continent.

However, I find today as the real reason for celebration across many circles, including Pakistan's military community. Why, you may reckon? The procurement of 36 Rafales is exactly where India should not be.

Here is my opinion!

A) The selection of Rafale, after many painstaking years was to replace the Migs of India, which are in hundreds. Out of 120 aircraft, only 36 are being procured, which defeats the purpose of the induction.

B) The French Dassault are notoriously expensive. The "cost through life" of their bird is 6 times any of its contemporary, ensuring that budget will always be short, and always be tight.

C) Till the time the aircraft capabilities are fully realized, it would already be fully neutralized by competitive procurements in the region.

D) Once Indian pilots fly the Rafale, the interest in TEJAS will diminish further, creating an internal battle of buying foreign versus building local, hence jeopardizing both programs.

E) The Rafale aircraft purchase kills the "make in india" dream of the Modi government, which shows that this decision is a panic decision to stop gap fill the entirely low serviceability rates of IAF, combined with shrinking squadron numbers and lack of pilots.

F) The Rafale deal essentially closes the door in Indian Air Force for BAE Systems Eurofighter Typhoon, and BAE Systems ES products. This will re-open the opportunity of other countries to access the platform/avionics from these sources.

G) Rafale program is essentially a lame duck political approach, which exemplifies the military policy of the state being run by civilians, never coming up to the expectation of uniformed professionals.

H) Rafale deal is highly suspected of big bribes from the French to all levels within the Indian administration, MOD, and IAF, which will eventually come out and further derail any future procurement plans of IAF to meet the existing and future requirements.

i agree a far dangerous deal would have been original 10-12 billion $ 100-120 aircraft deal of local production of gripen or f-16s which would have been a totally disastrous for us. i doubt there is much difference between AESA equipped gripen-f-16 or rafale/typhoon apart from range and payload
you can counter 36 aircrafts by simply getting 18-24 high end or just wait for 5th gen platform by 2025

best way to counter this is probably RD-93MA, SELEX AESA and possibly MICA/meteor along with it or JV for advance BVR

 

[IblinI]

We don't have half the Dozen nation on the west supported by a Global Superpower, and its powerful navy and a sea with disputes with most of the countries. And heck we are behind in creating the artifical island in any ocean.

We see that as an opportunity and motivation,and are you sure that they are on the very same boat?

 

[thepakistani]

good for you,now start searching if someone is selling EFF sola in second's.

When one is without credible rational answer do likea you. Fine man.

 

[amardeep mishra]

come on, PAF has never had an edge over IAF, never in the past, never in the future, how can 10 times smaller country have an edge over you...its time to get out of your inferiority complex

only reason why PAF did better in 1965 was older war fare era, poor planning and surprise and aggressive early tactics, even than PAF never really destroyed IAF and war was equally balanced, infact today IAF claims it won 1965 war too(Despite losing more aircrafts)

Hi dear @ziaulislam
I can not comment on history of who lost or who won.But I can surely comment on the technical aspects of fighters currently in use by both the forces.PAF did have an edge because of the fact that they had F-16 which not only featured a fully digital FBW but also relaxed static stability(although they lacked BVRs till mid 2000s).The only aircraft in IAF fleet prior to flanker induction that could take on F-16 was mig-29--and although it had BVR-it lacked the sophistication and reliability of f-16(Kindly note I am not talking about mig-29SMT or naval variants). The fulcrums that IAF had lacked digital FBW and RSS. But that doesnt mean fulcrum did not have any advantage over f-16-two noticeable advantage I can think of are BVR capability in the form of R-27 and slightly better sustained turn rates in slow mach regimes-however f16 performs better in higher mach regimes.-kindly note i am talking of times when PAF lacked BVR capability in their F16s.
I repeat in no uncertain terms that,the thing that makes f16 blk 52 such an awesome machine is not only itz maneuverability but also AIM120.AIM 120 is superior to R-77 in a lot of aspects.

I agree and disagree with your post , IAF does have some Edge over PAF but you have to keep few points in mind ..
1- Indian Size and Air space IAF has to cover , its not that IAF will be stationing the entire IAF fleets against PAF, in fact if you examine the battle readiness of IAF , the numbers will come par with PAF which have almost 95% of its Air Craft been battle ready ..

rest if you want to feel happy about it , you can all you want .. PAF have no plans to have Air superiority over Indian Sky's they will just defend their with help of a NET centeric Environment , AWACS , SAM's and Drones .

Agreed,but then a force with higher degree of net-centricity,sophistication of AWACS,SAMs and drones will dominate the other. Pak needs to focus more on SAMs. I dont think PAF has their own dedicated communication satllite like their indian counterpart or AFNET-which has revolutionized communication between indian airbases. I mean using AFNET infrastructure pilots can communicate via a video call to anyone across 60+ airforce bases in the country. India has spent a lot of money in AFNET for installing optical cables,antennae,satellite etc

 

[ziaulislam]

Hi dear @ziaulislam
I can not comment on history of who lost or who won.But I can surely comment on the technical aspects of fighters currently in use by both the forces.PAF did have an edge because of the fact that they had F-16 which not only featured a fully digital FBW but also relaxed static stability(although they lacked BVRs till mid 2000s).The only aircraft in IAF fleet prior to flanker induction that could take on F-16 was mig-29--and although it had BVR-it lacked the sophistication and reliability of f-16(Kindly note I am not talking about mig-29SMT or naval variants). The fulcrums that IAF had lacked digital FBW and RSS. But that doesnt mean fulcrum did not have any advantage over f-16-two noticeable advantage I can think of are BVR capability in the form of R-27 and slightly better sustained turn rates in slow mach regimes-however f16 performs better in higher mach regimes.
I repeat in no uncertain terms that,the thing that makes f16 blk 52 such an awesome machine is not only itz maneuverability but also AIM120.AIM 120 is superior to R-77 in a lot of aspects.


Agreed,but then a force with higher degree of net-centricity,sophistication of AWACS,SAMs and drones will dominate the other. Pak needs to focus more on SAMs. I dont think PAF has their own dedicated communication satllite like their indian counterpart or AFNET-which has revolutionized communication between indian airbases. I mean using AFNET infrastructure pilots can communicate via a video call to anyone across 60+ airforce bases in the country. India has spent a lot of money in AFNET for installing optical cables,antennae,satellite etc

i am surprised that you think that block 52 are better than su 30mki..
if yes, than ok,

if you think su 30 are better as every other indian , than why are we having this discussion?

PS: i think they are evenly matched and thus IAF never lost superiority over pakistan in its whole history and never lost 1:3 numerical advantage

 

[Wet Shirt Contest]

I agree and disagree with your post , IAF does have some Edge over PAF but you have to keep few points in mind ..
1- Indian Size and Air space IAF has to cover , its not that IAF will be stationing the entire IAF fleets against PAF, in fact if you examine the battle readiness of IAF , the numbers will come par with PAF which have almost 95% of its Air Craft been battle ready ..

rest if you want to feel happy about it , you can all you want .. PAF have no plans to have Air superiority over Indian Sky's they will just defend their with help of a NET centeric Environment , AWACS , SAM's and Drones .

India's size and space (strategic depth) will give them advantage thats something pakistan lacks, they can continuously send strike packages and stationed expensive goodies away from western border.

No airforce enjoys 95% availability rate, its a cooked up bull to fool masses. during war F16 would quickly run out of spares and we may need to cannibalize older fleet thanks to USA reliability.

Final point, There is no such thing as defensive airforce, air wing at its core is an offensive arm of military,

Have a goodday

 

[amardeep mishra]

i am surprised that you think that block 52 are better than su 30mki..
if yes, than ok

hi @ziaulislam
i wasnt even talking about su-30.I am afraid you failed to read my post properly.I was instead talking about fulcrum vs f16.Su-30MKI is undoubtedly a superior plane.However the issue that plagued SU-30 in indian inventory are those related to spare etc. Thankfully with the intervention of defence minister,the availability of su-30 in indian inventory has been increased to 65% from 55%. This will further increase once dedicated spares and consumables facility for su-30 is established in india.

 

[Dash]

I never put that title of professional in my profile. The forum put it there. Titles don't matter dear. I am just a retired pilot.

Sir, there is a reason why we are being compelled to write garbage. While we both don't know each other, let me say it was not like this, before. And I apologize for the personal insult.

 

[kaykay]

i agree a far dangerous deal would have been original 10-12 billion $ 100-120 aircraft deal of local production of gripen or f-16s which would have been a totally disastrous for us. i doubt there is much difference between AESA equipped gripen-f-16 or rafale/typhoon apart from range and payload
you can counter 36 aircrafts by simply getting 18-24 high end or just wait for 5th gen platform by 2025

best way to counter this is probably RD-93MA, SELEX AESA and possibly MICA/meteor along with it or JV for advance BVR

Well many guys here are not well informed or updated. India has had 2 different deals under discussion for last 2 years...one for 36 off the shelf Rafales while other one for 100+ aircrafts under 'make in India' category apart from Indigenous Tejas. While it just signed the first one, second deal is till open and under discussions.
www.wsj.com/articles/foreign-jet-fighter-makers-woo-india-1474709401

 

[wiseone2]

One thing is there Rafale is the 2nd or third best plane and the best multi role fighter. For air superiority EU Fighter is slightly better and off course F22 is the best money can buy. So instead of putting our head in the sand and celebrating enemies superiority let us think of countering them. Just my 2 cents please do not be mad at me as I am not being pro India, merely stating the facts. Let us get out of the "Hunooz Dilli door asat" mentality. Fighting a war needs sentiments but sentiments alone cannot be the only weapon.

Pakistan's chances of getting the Eurofighter are slim. it is pain in the neck to deal with four countries for approval
of course f-22 is not available for anyone other than the USAF

 

[Taygibay]

Good post until you wrote this :

Final point, There is no such thing as defensive airforce, air wing at its core is an offensive arm of military,

That's wrong! Apart from bombs and cruise missiles, the rest of a fighter's tools
are geared for defense.
The radar that scans incoming is derived from early warning ground stations.
The protective suite is ... well, protection.
AtoA missiles are for self-defense, at least the EM ones if not IR, fired at incomings.
And the cannon is like the bayonet of the air to defend against enemy bombers.

In fact, military aviation was always multi-role as pretty much any armed force

... until it became omnirole. that is!
​

Think of it this way :
a 500 km ranged fighter in a base at the center of a 1000km radius round country
is only defensive without aerial refuelling. Base it -50 km from the border and one
can believe it could attack the neighbour. Basing it on a carrier 3 000 km from home,
that's offensive!

And when you intercept a stray airliner, that good old cannon fires over its nose right
before downing it with missile so that the hijacking terrorists can't strike your capital ...
all these offensive moves are part of air patrol in defense of your national territory.

I'm not even discussing f-35 Network centric Jamming capabilities Which can Fry any Known fighter

Can it fry eggs cause I just woke up, it's pre-dawn and I'm ravenously hungry?
More seriously, all this chatter about a plane that is on offer to neither Pakistan
nor India is quite puzzling to me. Can't the fanboys let the Indians have their moment.

Good day all, Tay.