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The Indian Navy’s future power: Kolkata-Class and Visakhapatnam-Class Destroyers

Clearly this relay guidance ability is 1970s technology.

Which even the RN does not have. Ok. :lol:

No Indian can yet produce a SAM even close to 20 year old HQ-9 or HQ-16.

We produced a 200 km range HTK BMD interceptor, without having to copy any Russian system. I guess that's worth some applause right there.

Upgraded with different fuel and rocket engines. Increased its range

And it still remains a reverse-engineered S-300, but you'll claim it as fully Chinese. However, you'll call a Barak 8 system with Indian-designed propulsion/ FCS/ launchers ''Israeli''.

Akash NG is also to be completed as well LOL typical India bragging before job is done. Even then it is no different to some SD-10 SAM versions or HQ-22 developments.

It has the same range as someone's upgraded Buk copy while being much compact. Thanks to work done on ''Israeli'' Barak 8.

LOL we do trials and tests for SAMs in relay guidance. Just because you are not invited to see them doesn't mean they don't exist right? That's logical yes? So if you know we have relay guidance for weapons traveling at above mach 5 and had relay guidance since 1980s for anti-ship missiles and even one tiny short range SAM, do you think we wouldn't have it for HHQ-9 on Type 052D and HHQ-16 on Type 054A? Which came before you Kolkata was ready.

Yes you have. Not that you have tested. Right.
 
Which even the RN does not have. Ok. :lol:

Lol great logic and are you so sure about that? Just because they also don't announce their Aster and Sampson and their datalinks can perform relay guidance they don't have it? I think you are wrong.

Your only basis for your assumption on this is because French using similar cousin systems to Aster and Sampson tried CEC with American platforms as in country to country, totally different platform to platform full aspect CEC which they don't even disclose full details of. English said they don't have CEC with American platforms. Maybe you should think about think just a little bit more. You will find a fallacy gap.

English can have relay guidance capability but also say we don't have CEC with Americans keep in mind that is the context of all those quotes. And the French trialed CEC with Americans but also could have full relay guidance capability within their own systems.

We produced a 200 km range HTK BMD interceptor, without having to copy any Russian system. I guess that's worth some applause right there.

From 2007

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Chinese_anti-satellite_missile_test

Not Russian at all since it is dedicated ASAT or BMD with development variations such as SC-19.

https://thediplomat.com/2018/02/revealed-the-details-of-chinas-latest-hit-to-kill-interceptor-test/

^ A modern replacement set of FJ program BMD from 1970s v

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FJ_ABM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Chinese_anti-ballistic_missile_test

Another type of BMD and ASAT weapon based on DN-1 versions.

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202102/1215042.shtml

This time it is a successful intercept against turning Hypersonic weapon as shown also below of same test.

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/mil...es-success-latest-anti-missile-intercept-test

Check contrail. Some videos and photos shown full zig zagging pattern maybe others have saved some photos from early 2021 test.

Let's see none of these are S-400 or S-300 terminal phase interception systems. They are all mid course or dedicated HGV interceptors. So yeah I guess both of us dont use Russian systems for all our ASAT or BMD but we both have S-400 for one layer of our BMD. China also using HQ-9A and B, HQ-19, and HQ-26/29 for both mid course and terminal phase.


And it still remains a reverse-engineered S-300, but you'll claim it as fully Chinese. However, you'll call a Barak 8 system with Indian-designed propulsion/ FCS/ launchers ''Israeli''.

Great. Yeah HQ-9 is 100% based on S-300 and then changed fuel, engines, radar components to phased array, changed command module and set up and digitized. But yeah it's S-300 based. S-300 was one of the best systems in 1990s. I call Barak-8 an Israeli developed missile. But I call the HQ-9 as Chinese just like Akash is Indian. HQ-9 developed out of S-300PMU and Akash developed out of Kub missile. S-300 >> Kub.

It has the same range as someone's upgraded Buk copy while being much compact. Thanks to work done on ''Israeli'' Barak 8.

Great. I guess you guys can finally have it around 2023 first service. While HQ-16 is mature to the point it is getting old and needing new system upgrades. In the last nearly 20 years it has been in service. Akash NG is yet to make appearance in service. Great comparison. Next I shall compare future 6th generation PLAAF fighter with F-15 and call the F-15 a Mig-25 copy. Makes a lot of sense.

Yes you have. Not that you have tested. Right.

Lol sure sure ;) okay it's all either not existing or magic like DF-26 guidance is magic and all the HGV demonstrations of in service weapons are also guided by magic.


Remember this is not testing and development. It is a test of an in service HGV like USA testing SM-3 inservice. Doesn't mean it is still being developed. Testing has been going on since 2010s.

The first in service HGV shown is the DF-ZF. ARRW from USA is still in development. Russia has powerpoint and claims but no one traced and observed their flights.
 
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Lol great logic and are you so sure about that? Just because they also don't announce their Aster and Sampson and their datalinks can perform relay guidance they don't have it? I think you are wrong.

I have already provided the source: Written Evidence submitted by Lockheed Martin UK at their parliament which advises the RN to develop a CEC architecture to '' to share raw sensor data across all sensors and effectors, enabling any asset to engage any threat ''

That means that such a capability presently does not exist as of now.

Not Russian at all since it is dedicated ASAT or BMD with development variations such as SC-19.

I don't remember claiming that your ASAT wasn't developed by you. The point is India has developed an HTK BMD interceptor (now one more PDV & an ASAT), so an LRSAM is well within the reach of the Indian mil-industry complex. It is already underway.

While HQ-16 is mature to the point it is getting old and needing new system upgrades. In the last nearly 20 years it has been in service.

Again, that means that both you and us are developing similar MRSAM systems (with AESA radars, dual pulse motors & active seekers) without reverse engineering at the same time. I don't see the advantage of you having a head start there.

Lol sure sure ;) okay it's all either not existing or magic like DF-26 guidance is magic

Naval CEC for area defence missiles. Still not demonstrated or no proof for that exists.
 
I have already provided the source: Written Evidence submitted by Lockheed Martin UK at their parliament which advises the RN to develop a CEC architecture to '' to share raw sensor data across all sensors and effectors, enabling any asset to engage any threat ''

That means that such a capability presently does not exist as of now.

Maybe not. Maybe they just haven't told everyone about relay guidance but they have said they have not purchased the US trademarked type definition of CEC which involves the network picture forming and command of battlespace. Yeah UK doesn't have this and wanted to consider it but has not yet equipped their Daring with it.

I don't remember claiming that your ASAT wasn't developed by you. The point is India has developed an HTK BMD interceptor (now one more PDV & an ASAT), so an LRSAM is well within the reach of the Indian mil-industry complex. It is already underway.

You said not reverse engineered from Russian types so I interpreted as suggesting the Chinese ones are. Okay.

Again, that means that both you and us are developing similar MRSAM systems (with AESA radars, dual pulse motors & active seekers) without reverse engineering at the same time. I don't see the advantage of you having a head start there.

Yes for the 50km to 150km range SAM that will replace HQ-16 in Chinese military. And your replacement of Akash is Akash NG.

I said before. I consider HQ-9 to be Chinese development from S-300PMU and lineage trace back to S-300 but since HQ-9 first variant, already diverged. Akash is Indian development on Kub and lineage trace back to Kub but since then Akash itself has already diverged especially in radar and command modules etc.

So HQ-9 is Chinese. Akash is indian. HQ-16 is Chinese also. It is same as HQ-9 pattern but lineage based on Buk. It is developed with Almaz Antey as consultant who brought Buk technology. But HQ-16 in command, radars, guidance, even fuel and rocket motor has since diverged from any form of Buk except the missile's shape itself. Even that has changed a little.

These three are all Chinese and Indian. Barak-8 is different from these examples because it is not yet domesticated like Akash has been. The same for EL/M-2248. This is where I mean the systems that are used to perform CEC is Israeli and they should also have CEC capability because they own these two main systems while they also can easily create datalinks. The datalinks of Kolkata to perform that CEC is Indian.

As for developing new MRSAM systems. Well your's is Akash NG which is still in development. HQ-22 is sort of ours and has long been in service. It is a new missile shape and the system behind it is from HQ-12 missile which itself is a development from KS-1 which was rejected by PLA in favor of HQ-16 but purchased by Myanmar I think. HQ-22 has recently been sold to Serbia who also considered S-350.

Now HQ-22 is a bit larger and longer than HQ-16 with much longer range. There is another missile for Type 055 quad packing in each cell. HQ-16 may be getting old but it is a good missile. Just like Aim-7 was a good missile it is still developed on and on into ESSM. I do not believe HQ-16 will become phased out. It will just receive radar seeker and fuel upgrade. Maybe even engine upgrade but definitely software, ECCM and command and guidance upgrades to keep it modern. The size of HQ-16 can allow it to become close to HQ-22 ranges which is around 150km.

Naval CEC for area defence missiles. Still not demonstrated or no proof for that exists.

The only evidence I can give is the fact (as already posted and talked about) there are multiple mentions of relay guidance being used by HQ-7 way in the past already. And the fact that Type 054A, Type 052D, Type 055, Type 075, and Type 002 all have onboard dedicated high bandwidth arrays just for this exact task of air defence CEC with SAMs and fire control radars from different platforms. And the fact that relayed guidance existed also with cruise missiles and things like anti-ship ballistic missiles and HGVs. If those instruments are all onboard and not part of search, fire control, EW etc and relayed guidance has said to be performed with multiple types of weapons, and at least said to have been done decades ago on naval HQ-7.

Relay guidance of HHQ-16/9 by those arrays and datalinks are not published in English media. It doesn't mean they have not been demonstrated or it doesn't exist. Sharing basic telemetry data of target is not something I would expect to be beyond modern PLAN ships and these missiles because it is quite important, it is not difficult technically, and all the expected equipment on the outside of the ships are showing. This is just for modern SAM relay guidance. Where we know cruise missile and higher speed and altitude weapons already use relay guidance.

Anyway at this point nothing much more to say and people can believe whatever they prefer to believe.
 
American CEC is their sort of brand name of their navy's networked battlefield command management.

It incorporates EW cyberwarfare automation and maybe many more aspects of war.

It is a set of equipment combining sensors with datalink, software, and relay nodes like those high bandwidth circular arrays we see on the outside of ships. Type 054A and Type 051C feature but using flat arrays for more modern ships. American CEC is also used by some other navies and can allow them to relay guidance as a minimum. Its full purpose is to share battlefield data and automation on how the battle environment and conditions is changing while integrating their ECCM EW and so on. Not only performing shooter sensor node communications between platforms.

Chinese CEC is relayed guidance as a minimum but we don't know much about multilayered full spectrum CEC like the USN. Relayed guidance is arguably lower on priority compared to forming battlefield shared situational awareness and it is probably much easier to do. For SAMs it only needs to provide basic target information and telemetry for boost and then a mid course guidance. None has to be perfect for even semi-active homing missiles. So I really did doubt UK did not have this with Aster 30 and Sampson anyway.
 
The Calcutta class destroyer is the latest anti-aircraft missile destroyer under the Indian Navy.
Calcutta class warship is a model of scientific and technological cooperation all over the world. It is equipped with naval guns from Italy, phased array radar from Israel, main engine from Ukraine, auxiliary engine from Norway, generators from Denmark, anti-ship missiles from Russia, air defense missiles from Israel, early warning radar from the Netherlands, bow sonar from the USA, towed sonar from Germany and combat management system from Canada, Navigation management system in Sweden and project supervision in France, etc.
On the Calcutta class warship, we saw the hope of human cooperation in the future.
The Calcutta class is an excellent warship. In addition to the long construction time (14 years), the speed of air defense missiles is slower than that of aircraft (the max-speed is Mach 2), lack sufficient ability to defend against electronic warfare aircraft, has two power systems (European standard and Russian standard), uses smaller power gas turbines (16550kw), the phased array radar looks like Sikh, which affects the overall center of gravity of warships. Calcutta has no shortcomings.

Wow, we're so scared.
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You underestimate Indian navy too much... some days back you were calling Arihant submarine as underwater tractor and now this about Kolkata class destroyer..... you need some serious research on Indian navy.....
 
The other Indian IT cell troll said India is second country to have CEC after US. China and Russia had naval CEC well before 2019.

With full capability I mean all your ships are fitted with this ability to share targeting information with your weapons. With India it is only Brahmos and Barak-8 weapons for navy. Brahmos is incapable of CEC with most systems since the equipment is ranging from European to Israeli to Russian suppliers and developers. Barak-8 is CEC capable with the modern Indian navy ships that use EL/M2248.

By full capabilities I mean the entire range of weapons used not just one missile type.

Anyway whatever man India best as always ... number 2 after USA.

Not only BRAHMOS / KLUB and Barak 8 but people always miss deadly EXCOCETS and HARPOONS with Indian navy.....
 
If an American sailor piss on deck, the Indian deck starts flooding 😂

We are not talking about this. Gotta love that bridge though- reminds me of sliding windows on local buses. :rofl:

1631211673633.png


Maybe not. Maybe they just haven't told everyone about relay guidance but they have said they have not purchased the US trademarked type definition of CEC which involves the network picture forming and command of battlespace.

Integrated air picture is an important component of CEC as well. As for now, I will go with data in the public domain.

Yes for the 50km to 150km range SAM that will replace HQ-16 in Chinese military. And your replacement of Akash is Akash NG.

Akash NG will complement the Barak 8 in Indian service, while Akash 1 will be upgraded to 1S standard with active seekers. That is the available info as of now. Akash NG has a lower footprint and is more compact than the Buk.

And the fact that Type 054A, Type 052D, Type 055, Type 075, and Type 002 all have onboard dedicated high bandwidth arrays just for this exact task of air defence CEC with SAMs and fire control radars from different platforms.

I did not doubt the existence of capabilities but whether the same has been validated. Again I would like to go with data in public domain.
 
Kolkatta class derived from Delhi class.... Thats some tier 1 BS... Good going.

Not to forget Delhi Class is is about 135 feet longer than Krivak, to put it in perspective that even you would understand, a Whole Type 053H1 BNS Abu Bakar Longer and Given its about 3200 ton heavier, a close to another Krivak Heavy than the Krivak itself.

Was talking about the Russian hull and superstructure shape, genius. Scaled up or down.

I know the need to feel superior is so great, by coping and dissing Bangladesh Navy vessels.

So - how many ships does the West Bengal Navy have?

I thought so....you're welcome.
 
We are not talking about this. Gotta love that bridge though- reminds me of sliding windows on local buses. :rofl:

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Integrated air picture is an important component of CEC as well. As for now, I will go with data in the public domain.



Akash NG will complement the Barak 8 in Indian service, while Akash 1 will be upgraded to 1S standard with active seekers. That is the available info as of now. Akash NG has a lower footprint and is more compact than the Buk.



I did not doubt the existence of capabilities but whether the same has been validated. Again I would like to go with data in public domain.
Yet to blow up on harbor though 😂
 
So what's so special about it Chinese agies has a ability to do this since at least from a decade or so
China launched the missile tracking ship (Yuanwang series) in 1970s'. The program was approved by Chairman Mao in 1968.

Yuanwang-1, launched by the Jiangnan Shipyard in Dec. 1978.
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