The Flying Coffin Syndrome

[deckingraj]

let me guess..It is Indian Gnat in Pakistani museum

What's the point...Why not simple say JF17??? As far pictures are concerned then its personal choice...The way there are pictures of IAF gnat the same way there are pictures of some 71K Soldiers surrendering... However it is all ridiculous....

 

[honour]

Please educate us what did they do to F-104?

On the 12th a Jordanian F-104A Starfighter, on loan to the PAF was shot down by cannon fire by a MiG-21FL of No.47 Squadron flying from Jamnagar.
A Marut strike against Naya Chor on the 16th was intercepted by three PAF Shenyang F-6s. In the ensuing dogfight one of the F-6's was brought down by cannon fire from one of the two MiG escorts from the No.29 Squadron. No Indian aircraft were lost in the engagement and the Maruts were able to hit their targets. The following morning a low flying Starfighter was destroyed by a MiG-21 scrambled from Utterlai. A few hours later MiG-21 escorts of a Marut mission near Umarkot destroyed a pair of Starfighters.

check this out also........During the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971, two F-104As were lost in combat against the IAF MiG-21s. One pilot successfully ejected from his F-104 over shark-infested waters, but was never found. According to Western military analysts, the Indian MiG-21s had clearly "won" the much anticipated air combat between the MiG-21 and the F-104 Starfighter.

F-104 Starfighter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
1971 India-Pakistan War: The Air War - Case West

 

[razgriz19]

from india daily

shouldn't it say mig 21 instead of mig 19!?

 

[Windjammer]

Mr. areesh...seems u r against India more personally...no offence .
also yes the mig-21 were getting outdated and the russian spares werent that good.....but dont forget what they did to f-104 starfighters..
but i have no embarrasement to admit that our machines<mig-21> were not in a good condition till 2008...bit now the left mig-21 bisons<121 in numbers> are extremely good and are considered 3.5 generation planes....
well now we have su-30mki which will rip off most of the advanced planes currently in Asia............

Ahem, have you taken into account, what did the Korean era F-86 did to the top line Indian Fighter.
As for the SU-30s, it's no secret that since induction, they have been at least grounded twice, and as even the Rapptor has been taken out by an F-16 in DACT, the SU-30 is nowhere as potent so let's leave the Champagne on ice.

 

[Windjammer]

WindJammer

I have a question here. Why Mig 21 earned the honorable title of flying coffin but not F-7. What is the reason?

Some links regarding the flying coffin label.

Mig-21s: IAF finally phasing out Flying Coffins Military Strategy

Here is another link from 2003, you can be sure that a few dozen more have crashed since.
The Hindu Business Line : MiG crash

 

[ptldM3]

Ahem, have you taken into account, what did the Korean era F-86 did to the top line Indian Fighter.

You have to ask what the Mig-21 did to advanced Israeli war planes.

As for the SU-30s, it's no secret that since induction, they have been at least grounded twice,

That what happens after a crash, what's your point? And atleast one crash was do to pilot error, and why not bring up the J-10 while you're at it, oh i forgot it's not Indian but rather Chinese so it's not talked about, heck even threads pertaining to J-10 crashes are quickly deleted. It's taboo to talk about the J-10 but not about Mig-21 or SU-30 crashes.

and as even the Rapptor has been taken out by an F-16 in DACT, the SU-30 is nowhere as potent so let's leave the Champagne on ice.

Potency has bothing to do with crash rates, i think i know where you're getting at with the F-16 vs F-22 and all i have to say is that it was luck, i can also see how your hinting that if the F-16 can shoot down an F-22 that the F-16 and JF-17 can easily do the same to the MKI.

 

[Iggy]

Ahem, have you taken into account, what did the Korean era F-86 did to the top line Indian Fighter.
As for the SU-30s, it's no secret that since induction, they have been at least grounded twice, and as even the Rapptor has been taken out by an F-16 in DACT, the SU-30 is nowhere as potent so let's leave the Champagne on ice.

I dont understand..whats makes you say that Su-30 mki is not potent??because of the two crashes reulted in the grounding of the aircrafts??is this the normal procedure followed by all around the world??Is there any world class aircraft which is not crashed?what are you trying to say here??

 

[Windjammer]

because f-7 is a copy of mig-21 which is not even considered a plane but an unlicensed version of mig-21...also we had near about 683 mig-21's and after the breakdown of soviet its spare parts became nearly impossible to have......
moreover i got a question for you

Why our inferior folland gnat got the title of Sabre slayer??????????

Albeit, the original article gives a little insight to the problem, the lack of suitable lead in trainer has also been blamed for lack of pilot proficiency. As for the spare part nonsense, at one time half the world's air forces were equipped with this classic delta wing fighter, why none of them experienced this dilemma.
How ironic, the F-7, which according to you is not even considered a plane, still forms the backbone of many air arms around the world and has a record as good as any of it's generation aircraft.
As for the Sabre Slayer rant, it has been evidently proven that this myth was a mere imaginative creation of the IAF.

also which fighter is in your avatar pic...plz just for curiosity

That is your so called Sabre slayer which surrendered when confronted by an F-104 without any ordnance being fired.

 

[Windjammer]

You have to ask what the Mig-21 did to advanced Israeli war planes.

As i said earlier, in proper hands, MIG-21 can be a potent aircraft.
After what it did in Middle East or elsewhere, it's more mockery that it ended up getting shot down by the F-86.

That what happens after a crash, what's your point? And atleast one crash was do to pilot error, and why not bring up the J-10 while you're at it, oh i forgot it's not Indian but rather Chinese so it's not talked about, heck even threads pertaining to J-10 crashes are quickly deleted. It's taboo to talk about the J-10 but not about Mig-21 or SU-30 crashes.

It may have been grounded after the crash(es), but it seems you are oblivious to the fact that it was grounded at least twice before that as well, if you need me to enlighten you then by all means come back.
The subject is MIG-21, but the other member brought in the SU-30 and you are digressing even further.

Potency has bothing to do with crash rates, i think i know where you're getting at with the F-16 vs F-22 and all i have to say is that it was luck, i can also see how your hinting that if the F-16 can shoot down an F-22 that the F-16 and JF-17 can easily do the same to the MKI.

Lucky shot eh ?, i guess then the Growler must have had one too.
I am sure a little luck also comes into play just like the RAF Jaguar pilots getting lucky with USAF F-15 Eagles and i don't see PAF pilots walking around with strong headache pills.

 

[Windjammer]

I dont understand..whats makes you say that Su-30 mki is not potent??because of the two crashes reulted in the grounding of the aircrafts??is this the normal procedure followed by all around the world??Is there any world class aircraft which is not crashed?what are you trying to say here??

It was grounded even before the crashes and where exactly did i discredit it, as i said before, try to understand before posting queries.

 

[ptldM3]

It may have been grounded after the crash(es), but it seems you are oblivious to the fact that it was grounded at least twice before that as well, if you need me to enlighten you then by all means come back.
The subject is MIG-21, but the other member brought in the SU-30 and you are digressing even further.

Which aircraft havn't been grounded?

Lucky shot eh ?, i guess then the Growler must have had one too.
I am sure a little luck also comes into play just like the RAF Jaguar pilots getting lucky with USAF F-15 Eagles and i don't see PAF pilots walking around with strong headache pills.

Very lucky, the F-22 has had 108:0 and 144:0 kill ratios, so yes on occasion an F-16 or F-18 will get a lucky kill, esspecially when they out number the F-22.

 

[Windjammer]

Which aircraft havn't been grounded?

Very few make the headlines to the effect.

Very lucky, the F-22 has had 108:0 and 144:0 kill ratios, so yes on occasion an F-16 or F-18 will get a lucky kill, esspecially when they out number the F-22.

But then again we are not discussing the F-22 which in any case is in a different class than SU-30.

 

[k_n]

Where is the need to get annoyed after reading the article ?

We know and if anyone doesnt then he/she must realise that our training is 'NOT UPTO THE MARK' . The reasons are quite obvious . We lack trainer aircrafts . SHAME !
Read the last two recommendations made almost 2 decades back : Jet trainers and a dedicated Fighter Training School .

Here is a brief of the training recieved by future IAF pilots for Pakistani members --> Indian Air Force : Training Establishments

I guess the top brass in MoD and IAF know where they stand and are working to weed out the shortcomings , but the pace is pathetically slow . A future Indo-Pak conflict would be an Air Warfare affair . We cant afford to be average as we were in 65 and 71 anymore

 

[John Doe]

I know that this scanned article talks about events and conditions 20+ years ago, and I'm sure you know that the Mig 21 safety record is a lot better now, with the Bison upgrade and all. A quick google search will confirm this.
More importantly Windjammer, the aircraft and pilots of the 80's will not time travel to the present to fight the PAF today.
I can talk about the time PAF did not have BVR missiles and mid-air refueling , while IAF did. But it would be as silly as your usual history dredging, no?

 

[Indiarox]

shouldn't it say mig 21 instead of mig 19!?

If you look closer i think it says Mig 29