The Cold Start Doctrine Watch.

[Irfan Baloch]

I am bit confused on the discussion here, but the whole premise of Cold Start is to act fast tactically within few miles into Pakistan in order not to escalate to Nuclear War. I believe that is exactly what US did in capturing and killing of Osama.

you must be given a Nobel prize for such a creative literary piece.

American action was not an attack on Pakistan but a raid on an international terrorist who was being hunted prior to 911.
Pakistan was signatory to the UN resolution and obliged to support America in this war against terror.
Americans didnt dig in and raise their flag in Abbottabad but left with OBL's body.


cold start on the other hand is a re-polished and re-branded operation brasstacks of the mid 80s to grab important Pakistani locations in the southern Pakistan including the ports through lightening charge of mechanized and amphibious assaults.

I certainly doubt there would be much use of an India with irradiated cities, water resources.. etc. The eastern belt perhaps has better prospect for the Chinese.. and maybe that is what they want all along??

Chinese are really watching with amusement as Mr Modi is trumpeting the war hysteria. if there is large scale war between India and Pakistan then China is a clear winner indirectly because the war will allow the Chinese to widen the military and economic gap and channel the international investment to more stable country.

The eastern belt perhaps has better prospect for the Chinese.. and maybe that is what they want all along??

yes with South China sea in the perspective. it will give just another outpost to the Chinese to firm their grip on that part of the world.

 

[jeypore]

cold start on the other hand is a re-polished and re-branded operation brasstacks of the mid 80s to grab important Pakistani locations in the southern Pakistan including the ports through lightening charge of mechanized and amphibious assaults.

The original Cold Start resolution was formulated based on Kashmir related terrorist issues. Terrorist camps could be attacked within Pakistan (harboring them), and to retreat back to the line of control. Your grandeur of lightening charge amphibious assaults does not come into play in this doctrine, unless it dealt with only and only terrorist issues.

In April 2004, the Indian Army announced a new limited war doctrine that would allow it
to mobilize quickly and undertake retaliatory attacks in response to specific challenges
posed by Pakistan’s “proxy war” in Kashmir. This Cold Start doctrine marked a break
from the fundamentally defensive orientation that the Indian military has employed since
independence. Cold Start represents a significant undertaking for the Indian military as it
requires combined arms to operate jointly with airpower from the Indian Air Force.
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~mert1769/Ladwig, Cold Start NPS Paper.pdf

 

[jeypore]

Mr. Oscar

Incorrect analogy. The OBL raid has NOTHING in common with the "cold start" idea. First, there was no capture of land,no destruction of infrastructure..

Cold start doctrine clear intention were not to capture any land, but to destroy terrorist camps within Pakistan.

second.. Osama was not a normal civilian but someone Pakistan also openly stated to hunt down.

True, but we was found in Pakistan, which Pakistanie establishment rejected that notion of OBL being in your country. Secondly, he was hiding in plane site write next to military school and not into Afgan and Pak border, which your Gov’t clearly stated.

Third, No other casualties were made in the process of the raid..

That is the whole object of Cold Start Doctrine, is to go in and damage only the terrorist camps.

With the purported "cold start" doctrine, the idea was to essentially damage Pakistan and Pakistanis in general by its actions. Land that belongs to Pakistan will be taken and usurped.. which is all the moral cause Pakistan needs to start lobbing nuclear weapons and essentially start the chain reaction that leaves Pakistan finished and India in near ruin.

In your merry time read the Doctrine closely.
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~mert1769/Ladwig, Cold Start NPS Paper.pdf

 

[Irfan Baloch]

The original Cold Start resolution was formulated based on Kashmir related terrorist issues. Terrorist camps could be attacked within Pakistan (harboring them), and to retreat back to the line of control. Your grandeur of lightening charge amphibious assaults does not come into play in this doctrine, unless it dealt with only and only terrorist issues.

dear
the scope and theater of entire Indian exercise is in the Pakistani underbelly .. i.e Sindh and Karachi Kashmir is thousands of miles away

 

[jeypore]

dear
the scope and theater of entire Indian exercise is in the Pakistani underbelly .. i.e Sindh and Karachi Kashmir is thousands of miles away

Then clearly, you do not have the comprehension of the Cold Start Doctrine. I would advise you to read it clearly...........

 

[Joe Shearer]

Every nation needs a very powerful military to survive these days..

And a military with most powerful weapons on Earth are no joke...

When you have a belligerent neighbor with one of the largest militaries on earth...then keeping a powerful military is the only option...

When you have a belligerent runaway terrorist programm, keeping a powerful military is quite futile.

 

[AUz]

When you have a belligerent runaway terrorist programm, keeping a powerful military is quite futile.

Then india should downsize its military.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Then india should downsize its military.

That is always a possibility, but perhaps you misunderstood the reference, genuinely, or in pretense. I don't think that there is much doubt in the world between the relative roles of the two countries, but if it pleases you to indulge in word games and in quibbles, be my guest.

 

[SQ8]

Mr. Oscar



Cold start doctrine clear intention were not to capture any land, but to destroy terrorist camps within Pakistan.




True, but we was found in Pakistan, which Pakistanie establishment rejected that notion of OBL being in your country. Secondly, he was hiding in plane site write next to military school and not into Afgan and Pak border, which your Gov’t clearly stated.




That is the whole object of Cold Start Doctrine, is to go in and damage only the terrorist camps.



In your merry time read the Doctrine closely.
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~mert1769/Ladwig, Cold Start NPS Paper.pdf

Nope.. there was no terrorist camp hit. It was an attack to hunt down a world criminal.. not someone's criminal.

OBL's excellent hiding ability has nothing to do with how this is relevant to cold start.

No it isnt, The objective of cold start was from the beginning touted to damage and destroy the Pakistani military and force a surrender quickly. Please do not twist these objectives to suit your narrative of what it is supposed to do.

 

[SQ8]

Then clearly, you do not have the comprehension of the Cold Start Doctrine. I would advise you to read it clearly...........

Your own link turn your supposed understanding of it hollow.

 

[AUz]

That is always a possibility, but perhaps you misunderstood the reference, genuinely, or in pretense. I don't think that there is much doubt in the world between the relative roles of the two countries, but if it pleases you to indulge in word games and in quibbles, be my guest.

Walk on.....

 

[Hellfire]

The original Cold Start resolution was formulated based on Kashmir related terrorist issues. Terrorist camps could be attacked within Pakistan (harboring them), and to retreat back to the line of control. Your grandeur of lightening charge amphibious assaults does not come into play in this doctrine, unless it dealt with only and only terrorist issues.

Sorry members, have been away from the forum for ages and am just catching up. Just came across this thread and will join here by addressing Jeypore. Sorry but you are totally wrong. Although there is very less similarity (except for mechanized nature of our operations) between the Cold Start doctrine and the Brasstacks, there is no denying that the main aim of the Cold Start is to achieve breakthroughs in the soft underbelly of Pakistan (in terms of the topography and geography). The aim is to achieve limited success and hold the territory in order to produce a strong position for negotiations. Our calculations are of effective international pressure on either side of the border within 4 to 5 days which will create a need to negotiate. That is the premise on which the cold start doctrine is based.

Cold start doctrine clear intention were not to capture any land, but to destroy terrorist camps within Pakistan.

Wrong. It is to capture land to strengthen bargaining position in post war negotiations.

 

[Neutron]

Sorry members, have been away from the forum for ages and am just catching up. Just came across this thread and will join here by addressing Jeypore. Sorry but you are totally wrong. Although there is very less similarity (except for mechanized nature of our operations) between the Cold Start doctrine and the Brasstacks, there is no denying that the main aim of the Cold Start is to achieve breakthroughs in the soft underbelly of Pakistan (in terms of the topography and geography). The aim is to achieve limited success and hold the territory in order to produce a strong position for negotiations. Our calculations are of effective international pressure on either side of the border within 4 to 5 days which will create a need to negotiate. That is the premise on which the cold start doctrine is based.



Wrong. It is to capture land to strengthen bargaining position in post war negotiations.

Sir with due repect your war gaming is not factual as you underestimated capabilities of Pakistan or don't want to face the truth. I am not talking about full spectrum deterrence here. Even in conventional terms Pakistan is strong enough to develop befitting response to your coldstart , hot start , PAO or whatever your strategist are dreaming about.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Wrong. It is to capture land to strengthen bargaining position in post war negotiations.

And whats the guarantee that Pakistan will want to negotiate and not evict you out?

Are the Indian IBG's going to camp out when they capture 50km of Pakistan's territory after taking severe bruises and beating from Pakistan's Frontier Forces and constant Artillery Shelling. What will these Exhausted IBG's do when fresh PA Armour is mobilized to counter them? Well rested, fresh troops from PA Amour facing exhausted IA's IBG's, the odds are PA is going to win that day. Even to this day, India lacks the hammer to dominate the battlefield. India certainly did have a hammer in the form of Smerch, that was a deadly system that could smash PA's Armour Formations from stand off ranges without any threat to itself. That threat has been nullified in the form of A-100.

 

[Hellfire]

Sir with due repect your war gaming is not factual as you underestimated capabilities of Pakistan or don't want to face the truth. I am not talking about full spectrum deterrence here. Even in conventional terms Pakistan is strong enough to develop befitting response to your coldstart , hot start , PAO or whatever your strategist are dreaming about.

Sorry for a very late rejoinder. For sometime now, I have been unable to be a regular on the PDF. Neutron, there is no denying the capabilities of PA. Your army is a thoroughly respected organization and considered very professional, at least by IA. There is no doubt as to your strength and your capabilities. Also you must accept that the war is primarily logistics and your capability to match up your tempo of operations with your logistical support. It has less to do with your weapon platforms. In the end, numbers and the logistical support will always trump your capabilities in any war scenario.

Allow me to just touch upon something which I have been saying a number of times and which you all, as is your right, do not accept. The conventional mode of Indian war fighting has shifted from the classical defensive/holding corps and strike corps to pivot corps and strike corps. No more is India relying on strike corps to come into play. The Pivot corps will be able to launch an attack in as is position itself with as is strength. The mobilization aspects will be detected by you but it maybe late for you to be able to shift your reserves.

Next, you have to also factor in that PA, being a professional army, also appreciates that irrespective of whether superiority exists in terms of tech capability or not, the number of troops and tanks that India can bring into play is much greater at the end of the day. Besides that, they also know that they have maneuver space in Sindh, so even PA is not unduly worried about any ingress that may be say 25 - 30 kms, so nukes etc are not even on the cards. An ingress around 25-30 kms, as any serviceman knows, will need a consolidation phase wherein the logistics will have to be matched up. Because in a mobile warfare there is only so much FOL and spares and ammunition and ration you can carry that beyond 24-48 hours, you have to stop to replenish. The time becomes the limiting factor and not distance. And any ingress, will permit mobile forces to move this much into depth before running into major resistance centers in your side. That is also the same time as you will take to re-shift your forces depending on your contingencies. Remember the action is across the whole frontage of India Pakistan boundary and not limited to some areas.

And whats the guarantee that Pakistan will want to negotiate and not evict you out?.

The world's pants will be on fire bro .. they will come with tonnes of bricks on us. And your policy of playing the dumb irrational by quoting using of nuke as a pre-empt on everything will ensure more pressure on you than us (although I suspect we will also have to bear a lot of hell).

Are the Indian IBG's going to camp out when they capture 50km of Pakistan's territory after taking severe bruises and beating from Pakistan's Frontier Forces and constant Artillery Shelling. What will these Exhausted IBG's do when fresh PA Armour is mobilized to counter them? Well rested, fresh troops from PA Amour facing exhausted IA's IBG's, the odds are PA is going to win that day. Even to this day, India lacks the hammer to dominate the battlefield. India certainly did have a hammer in the form of Smerch, that was a deadly system that could smash PA's Armour Formations from stand off ranges without any threat to itself. That threat has been nullified in the form of A-100

While your premise is technically correct, I can further keep on finding a solution to a problem which has no fixed solution. Is any attack plan the perfect attack plan or the right way? You will be right in your way and I in my. A-100s, Smerch, whatever. DF and counter battery fire, effects of assault forces on linear defences whatever. I can start a rejoinder by saying we have CBU-105s in ample supplies to take care of your HAT and LAT as also embedded armor, you will retort with Copperheads (those mothers are still effective) etc etc. Who knows how the battle will play out in one particular sector! But across the frontage? Seriously, if you think numbers in time don't matter, then it is difficult to appreciate the premise of Cold start.

I will just say one thing, we will begin offensive operations within 5 hours from the moment the GoI gives a go ahead and our first soldiers will be across IB in max 12 hours.