The clock is ticking for USA....

[Chinaownseverything]

Its always worth a try to stop proliferation rather than be fatalistic about it as a matter of policy.

Trying to stop proliferation causes conflict.

Look at China and Russia, both nuclear armed countries yet they live side by side peacefully.

Now what do you think would happen if China demanded that Russia get rid of her nuclear weapons? or the other way around would Russia China relations be better if Russia prevented China from getting nukes?

 

[sunny001]

Except there is no way to stop mass proliferation. Just like there is NO WAY to stop the sword from spreading all over the world, just like there is no way to stop the rifle, no way to stop the machine gun, no way to stop war plane etc...

We definitely can, if all the responsible could sit together and discuss their differences. If we continue this path, we don't need any astroid to destroy us, we can do it ourselves any day. I definitely don't want to die unless unavoidable. What about u?

 

[sunny001]

Trying to stop proliferation causes conflict.

Look at China and Russia, both nuclear armed countries yet they live side by side peacefully.

Now what do you think would happen if China demanded that Russia get rid of her nuclear weapons? or the other way around would Russia China relations be better if Russia prevented China from getting nukes?

For how many years hardly 40, can you guarantee it for rest of eternity?

 

[whocares]

Polls have shown that most of the people in USA think that USA should pull out of Iraq

Yet the USA is still in IRAQ. You only elect people, but in a democracy the people have no control over the government.

Popular opinion in the United States on the invasion of Iraq - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

September 2007

On September 10–12, in an Associated Press-Ipsos poll of 1,000 adults conducted by Ipsos Public Affairs, 33% approved of George Bush's handling of the "situation in Iraq", while 65% disapproved of it.[2]
[edit] December 2008

On December, 11-14, An ABC News/Washington Post Poll of 1,003 adults nationwide, found 64% felt the Iraq War was not worth fighting, with 34% saying it was worth fighting, with 2% undecided. The margin of error was 3%.[18]

Its strange that someone who supports an authoritarian government criticises lapses in democracy where the government doesn't do as the people please.

This is something that should make you jump with joy, because a government which acts autonomously to the people is a feature for you and not a bug.

There are nuances in democracy and in a direct - referendum based democracy people would decide pretty much everything on majority opinion. I don't think thats ever been tried though. So its not as if more direct control isn't a possibility.

 

[Chinaownseverything]

Its strange that someone who supports an authoritarian government criticises lapses in democracy where the government doesn't do as the people please.

This is something that should make you jump with joy, because a government which acts autonomously to the people is a feature for you and not a bug.

There are nuances in democracy and in a direct - referendum based democracy people would decide pretty much everything on majority opinion. I don't think thats ever been tried though. So its not as if more direct control isn't a possibility.

The way I see it

Authoritarian = economic growth, rational decisions made by intelligent educated think tanks, no freedom

Democracy = slow economic growth, irrational decisions made by politicians based on lobbies, no freedom

Democracy has no freedom because based on my experiences democratic governments rarely listen to the voice of the people especially in the USA and India. Even if 100% of the population wanted out of Iraq the government would still be in it.

 

[chauism]

Dude, you are either moronic or have no clue about NPT. It asks those five countries to put in efforts to eliminate nuclear weapons.

Obama, recently held a meeting with all nuclear weapons states to give away nuclear weapons. But, Pakistan is blocking it fearing India.

if you don't know about this, then don't come to defense forums with your rants.

Like I said NPT is hypocritical at best. Why would India give up nuclear weapons when its immediate neighbor China has it?

If you read the second article VI carefully, the language is anything but vague. NWS are not obligated to disarm themselves. Rather, it only requires them "to negotiate in good faith."

Each of the Parties to the Treaty undertakes to pursue negotiations in good faith on effective measures relating to cessation of the nuclear arms race at an early date and to nuclear disarmament, and on a treaty on general and complete disarmament.

It is idiotic to think that those 5 NWS will willingly give up its nuclear power status at all. So the treaty itself is just for proliferation of nuclear weapon to other countries as it was intended and written in its name. The disarmament clause in it was just written to comfort those who don't have the weapons, and it was written intentionally to be vague. That is why I said you have no clue about NPT.

If you can find any definite clause in Obama's proposal for disarmament of US nuclear weapons. He is just as usual trying to score some political points with the general public with empty words. Right now even if US and Russia cut their nuclear weapon's size by half, each of them still have around 10 times of the warheads that other 3 combined.

 

[sunny001]

Polls have shown that most of the people in USA think that USA should pull out of Iraq

Yet the USA is still in IRAQ. You only elect people, but in a democracy the people have no control over the government.

Popular opinion in the United States on the invasion of Iraq - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

September 2007

On September 10–12, in an Associated Press-Ipsos poll of 1,000 adults conducted by Ipsos Public Affairs, 33% approved of George Bush's handling of the "situation in Iraq", while 65% disapproved of it.[2]
[edit] December 2008

On December, 11-14, An ABC News/Washington Post Poll of 1,003 adults nationwide, found 64% felt the Iraq War was not worth fighting, with 34% saying it was worth fighting, with 2% undecided. The margin of error was 3%.[18]

But, people are opposing it. Why is Bush still not running the government. He was kicked out because of his policies. Anyways, in US, people can say Bush is a big f**K on national television if they don't like his policies, can you say that to Hu jintao and still live in China or live at all?

And also people do not know everything there is to know when taking a decision. With complete knowledge of what's goin on they might change their decision.

 

[chauism]

But, people are opposing it. Why is Bush still not running the government. He was kicked out because of his policies. Anyways, in US, people can say Bush is a big f**K on national television if they don't like his policies, can you say that to Hu jintao and still live in China or live at all?

Term limits, he was still elected for the second term after he invaded Iraq. Those swearing and critism did not stop Bush get what he want. So what is the use?

And also people do not know everything there is to know when taking a decision. With complete knowledge of what's goin on they might change their decision.

That is where you are wrong, read this study.

how_facts_backfire

 

[Chinaownseverything]

But, people are opposing it. Why is Bush still not running the government. He was kicked out because of his policies. Anyways, in US, people can say Bush is a big f**K on national television if they don't like his policies, can you say that to Hu jintao and still live in China or live at all?

And also people do not know everything there is to know when taking a decision. With complete knowledge of what's goin on they might change their decision.

Whats the point of kicking Bush out when the next president Obama just continues where Bush left off?

 

[whocares]

The way I see it

Authoritarian = economic growth, rational decisions made by intelligent educated think tanks, no freedom

Democracy = slow economic growth, irrational decisions made by politicians based on lobbies, no freedom

Democracy has no freedom because based on my experiences democratic governments rarely listen to the voice of the people especially in the USA and India. Even if 100% of the population wanted out of Iraq the government would still be in it.

You really are speaking out of your ***, aren't you.
No freedom in USA and India?

anyway, here is a resource to get you started on political and economic liberty Library of Economics and Liberty

authoritarian = mix of benevolent dictatorships, one man cults (N Korea and China under Mao, USSR under Stalin), aggresive and warring rentier states (Iraq) ...... its a worse mix of outcomes than democracies.

 

[sunny001]

If you read the second article VI carefully, the language is anything but vague. NWS are not obligated to disarm themselves. Rather, it only requires them "to negotiate in good faith."



It is idiotic to think that those 5 NWS will willingly give up its nuclear power status at all. So the treaty itself is just for proliferation of nuclear weapon to other countries as it was intended and written in its name. The disarmament clause in it was just written to comfort those who don't have the weapons, and it was written intentionally to be vague. That is why I said you have no clue about NPT.

If you can find any definite clause in Obama's proposal for disarmament of US nuclear weapons. He is just as usual trying to score some political points with the general public with empty words. Right now even if US and Russia cut their nuclear weapon's size by half, each of them still have around 10 times of the warheads that other 3 combined.

That's why I said NPT is hypocritical. There couldn't be any worse treaty than that, considering these countries which have nuclear weapons are called super powers. I too doubt they would ever give up their nuclear weapons.

But it has to start somewhere. That's why I said, China could do something about it. We cannot resent to the fact that they would never give up and we give up our efforts.

How do you know if Obama was serious or not. He was actually criticized by american media for thinking he could persuade all to give up their nuclear weapons. But at least he is trying.

Even India said, if every one gives up, it'll too. But, Pakistan which is conventionally inferior to India to wage a war against it, is opposing it. It is understandable. China could definitely help in this regard.

 

[sunny001]

Whats the point of kicking Bush out when the next president Obama just continues where Bush left off?

Obviously there is more to it than what is available in public domain. Obama was staunch opponent of war during elections, but he seems to be following same path as bush did, which makes me believe so.

 

[sunny001]

Term limits, he was still elected for the second term after he invaded Iraq. Those swearing and critism did not stop Bush get what he want. So what is the use?



That is where you are wrong, read this study.

how_facts_backfire

This is desperation at its best. You want to prove me wrong don't you?

He was reelected because people thought he was doing a good job or he was right to wage a war against Iraq. They were misguided with wrong information. Resentment followed immediately after elections. I even think republic party lost this time around because of him. It was more of resentment of Bush than Obama's charm.

At least it was mandate of people. At least they had a chance to change him. Unlike China, if you like it or not you need follow their decisions. Pity how chinese think theirs is better form of governance. I hope India prove them wrong.

 

[sunny001]

The way I see it

Authoritarian = economic growth, rational decisions made by intelligent educated think tanks, no freedom

Democracy = slow economic growth, irrational decisions made by politicians based on lobbies, no freedom

Democracy has no freedom because based on my experiences democratic governments rarely listen to the voice of the people especially in the USA and India. Even if 100% of the population wanted out of Iraq the government would still be in it.

Man I pity Chinese who think authoritarian is better form of governance. They are willing to give up freedom, rights, voice for it.

I hope they'll realize what a wrong path they are taking. For when they realize, there is a bloody path for them.

 

[whocares]

Man I pity Chinese who think authoritarian is better form of governance. They are willing to give up freedom, rights, voice for it.

I hope they'll realize what a wrong path they are taking. For when they realize, there is a bloody path for them.

Not easy to say whether or not it will be bloody. Depends on the brutality of the regime at that time. Cases in point Iran and USSR. the Iranian regime is very brutal.