The clock is ticking for USA....

[CAPTAIN AMERICA]

Because each and EVERY death in a country ruled by a dictator is caused DIRECTLY by the dictator and nothing else, right?

You are aware that under Mao Zedong that the chinese population grew from 400,000,000 to 1,200,000,000

Clearly under Mao's reign nobody was starving to death or being killed off en masse.

So in other words if you have a growing population its ok to kill a hundred million or so.

Here was the cause of deaths in china.

People's Republic of China, Mao Zedong's regime (1949-1975): 40 000 000 [make link]
Agence France Press (25 Sept. 1999) citing at length from Courtois, Stephane, Le Livre Noir du Communism:
Rural purges, 1946-49: 2-5M deaths
Urban purges, 1950-57: 1M
Great Leap Forward: 20-43M
Cultural Revolution: 2-7M
Labor Camps: 20M
Tibet: 0.6-1.2M
TOTAL: 44.5 to 72M
Twentieth Century Atlas - Death Tolls

If you put people in work camps and die I guess some would say that would not be considered the goverments fault.
another source said about 12 percent were determined not to be good communist and were either excuted or just not provided with any means to live and under communism that means you die.

 

[Chinaownseverything]

So in other words if you have a growing population its ok to kill a hundred million or so.

Here was the cause of deaths in china.

People's Republic of China, Mao Zedong's regime (1949-1975): 40 000 000 [make link]
Agence France Press (25 Sept. 1999) citing at length from Courtois, Stephane, Le Livre Noir du Communism:
Rural purges, 1946-49: 2-5M deaths
Urban purges, 1950-57: 1M
Great Leap Forward: 20-43M
Cultural Revolution: 2-7M
Labor Camps: 20M
Tibet: 0.6-1.2M
TOTAL: 44.5 to 72M
Twentieth Century Atlas - Death Tolls

If you put people in work camps and die I guess some would say that would not be considered the goverments fault.
another source said about 12 percent were determined not to be good communist and were either excuted or just not provided with any means to live and under communism that means you die.

Did you look at how these estimates were made? They were pretty much random numbers pulled out of a hat.

 

[gambit]

LOL I come from Hong Kong, there is NO state media there at all.

No need for a 'state media' if the desire to believe is strong enough.

Funny how you like to stereotype all Chinese as brainwashed by the Government....

As helped by many comments excusing or denying many uncomfortable truths about the Chinese government.

...yet you seem to argue with me MORE than you do with other Chinese members.

For now, your comments are deserving of challenges. What is unusual about that?

Anyway you'll be surprised (even though I told you this before) but I actually agree that Democracies are better than Dictatorships. There are more checks and balances and more accountability.

My argument is that Democracies work best when countries are already developed. Look at how Japan/South Korea/Taiwan did it... they first developed, and then they turned to democracy.

Wheras countries like the Democratic Republic of Congo, Nigera, Colombia, etc. are all "Democracies" yet are not yet "developed", so they end up being unstable.

India is a good in-between, they have a good Democracy even though they are a developing country. However China has been more successful in reducing poverty and feeding the people.

The big question is, which is more important... food or liberty? My conclusion is that Democracy works best when a country is already developed.

The issue for my original challenge is the ridiculous claim that the Chinese government is managed by 'engineers' as if somehow at this point of progress technocrats serves this progress better than lawyers. The Soviet system placed a high value on technocrats, in terms of pay and privileges. According to Victor Belenko, the MIG-25 pilot who defected with his aircraft to the West back in the Cold War, he was shocked that an average American family MD, not a specialist, earns far more than a fighter pilot or a scientist working at some top secret science cities like this one...

Seversk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Seversk was a secret city in the Soviet Union until President Boris Yeltsin decreed in 1992 that such cities could use their historical names. The town appeared on no official maps until then. As it was the tradition with Soviet towns containing secret facilities, Tomsk-7 is actually a post office box number and implied that the place was located some distance from the city of Tomsk.

Post war Japan and South Korea are appropriate only to a degree in that they were under military threats. You do know about the Cold War, right? Anyway...The Cold War is over and even though there exist tensions between the Western alliance and China, China is under no threats to the same degree as post war Japan or SKR. The economic interdependence between the two sides are great enough to offset any disagreements, or at least far more compelling for both sides to come to a political settlement over a military one. That mean the best type of administrator/legislator, if we conveniently stereotype people for now, to maintain progress towards democracy is the lawyer, not a technocrat. A technical background is helpful but not necessary because that is what 'experts' are for. The legislator with a technical background could focus his legislative agenda better because he would be able to more rapidly call upon those 'experts' to give him the necessary information, but ultimately, the legislator must be more adept at social studies and laws to create the best possible laws to maintain stability.

 

[CAPTAIN AMERICA]

Yes they were not deliberately killed en masse like the native Americans were.

However millions of people starved to death because of failed economic policies in China (during the Great Leap Forward), due to incompetence rather than deliberate design.

Chairman Mao had some very bad economic policies, that is just a historical fact.

I respect him as the founder of the CPC, but he clearly made a lot of mistakes. The modern-day CPC has admitted this many times.

The Indians were not prepared to give up the nomadic life of the hunter for the sedentary life of the farmer. The new Americans, convinced of their cultural and racial superiority, were unwilling to grant the original inhabitants of the continent the vast preserve of land required by the Indians’ way of life.

Were American Indians the Victims of Genocide?

Some interesting reading if you are interested.

The number of Indians killed in fights with the military were in the area of about 10,000.

Most indians that died, died from starvation and disease. The only incident of deliberate infection seemed to be by the British.

Disease started in 1511, Cortés spreading syphilis and other diseases to the Aztec's and other Indian tribes.

 

[below_freezing]

Yeah I noticed that too, I think he has some sort of social problem.

it's the 阿-Q syndrome. just as 阿-Q knows the 精神胜利法 - that is, to rationalize and minimize his own defeat as an actual victory。

think about it logically. he is a yellow man from a defeated nation, living in the white man's world with no education. he was kicked around by the white man in professional life and before, his nation was slaughtered by the white man and he was directly supporting their actions. now he looks around, and sees this forum filled with intelligent doctors, engineers, researchers and managers, all from outside the US, and all not whites, which shatters his illusions of white supremacy. but he insists on closing his eyes, and shouting about US supremacy... because deep down inside he's worthless and only through affiliating himself with the US can he make something out of his small and meaningless life.

Just another replacable bolt in the US war machine, nothing to see.

 

[mike05]

I would think that the total GDP of India and China will some day exceed that of the USA just as the European Union does today. Percapita GDP is 10,000 less..
I pity the people of India and China if it does not. I am not sure of the importance other then psychological to that happening. A billion and a half Chinese and a billion and half Indians with the same GDP as the USA still means a tremendous number of poor Indians and Chinese.

Just on the GDP earning and benefits I think ultimately its how the government taxes the earning and puts the funds to good use. Since both countries have large populations the government faces the usual problems including corruption and inefficiencies which does not let the poorer people benefit as much as they should. But I do think the GDP of the respective nations will catch up with that of the developed world which is logical given the size of the population, that is if we don't run out of resources first.

 

[mike05]

Comparing the Chinese and American Indians who suffered in the early times is like comparing apples and orange (no offense). The native Indians were killed by the settlers looking to expand their territory (similar to war) and the people who killed under Mao's misguided rule were more ideology based (similar to religion).

Looking at China which is such a large country and have always been under the rule of emperors for thousands of years for a new ideology to take hold never simple. (even Britain stills maintains the monarchy till today).

But since then China did come out of this as a stronger nation least the people who scarified during these hard time did not do so in vain. Imagine if the country went into turmoil millions more would have perished.

I don't think there is much point in debating over this particular topic, no one is disagreeing that Mao great leap forward did do a lot of injustice to the population but to continue to push the subject is not going to lead anywhere. Just imagine how many people got killed in the name of religion?

 

[CAPTAIN AMERICA]

Comparing the Chinese and American Indians who suffered in the early times is like comparing apples and orange (no offense). The native Indians were killed by the settlers looking to expand their territory (similar to war) and the people who killed under Mao's misguided rule were more ideology based (similar to religion).

Looking at China which is such a large country and have always been under the rule of emperors for thousands of years for a new ideology to take hold never simple. (even Britain stills maintains the monarchy till today).

But since then China did come out of this as a stronger nation least the people who scarified during these hard time did not do so in vain. Imagine if the country went into turmoil millions more would have perished.

I don't think there is much point in debating over this particular topic, no one is disagreeing that Mao great leap forward did do a lot of injustice to the population but to continue to push the subject is not going to lead anywhere. Just imagine how many people got killed in the name of religion?

What amazes me is how many people are still getting killed in the name of religion.

and remember it was not just settlers killing Indians:

"Hostilities opened in late 1636 after the murder of several colonists. When the Pequots refused to comply with the demands of the Massachusetts Bay Colony for the surrender of the guilty and other forms of indemnification, a punitive expedition was led against them by John Endecott, the first resident governor of the colony; although it ended inconclusively, the Pequots retaliated by attacking any settler they could find. Fort Saybrook on the Connecticut River was besieged, and members of the garrison who ventured outside were ambushed and killed. One captured trader, tied to a stake in sight of the fort, was tortured for three days, expiring after his captors flayed his skin with the help of hot timbers and cut off his fingers and toes. Another prisoner was roasted alive." http://hnn.us/articles/7302.html