Terrorist bombing of Moscow Airport Jan. 24, 2011

[temujin]

I don't like this whole one-sided portrayal of the conflict.

These look like random acts of terrorism by radical terrorists.

No doubts they are terrorist attacks.

But noone conveys the other side of the story, the destruction of Grozny, or how Chechens are treated in Moscow.

It's a two-way story. I am left wondering why Moscow wants to hold onto Chechnya. They quite clearly don't want to be a part of Russia.

Does Moscow have any right to be holding onto Chechnya? This is a land dispute.

In fact, the Chechens did run a de facto independent state between the end of the first Chechen war in 1996 and recommencement of hostilities in 1999.Instead of an Islamic utopia as promised by their leaders, what the Chechens got was a violent kleptocracy run by criminal gangs who oppressed and terrorised the population in the name of Islam (a bit like Afghanistan under the Taliban but only 10 times worse).Kidnapping for ransom soon became the main industry of the newly independent state and the principal operators were senior ministers in the 'Ichkerian government' itself. In addition to tacit approval from Western powers, the new administration also acquired the support of assorted Wahabbist groups from across the Muslim world and in turn helped Islamist groups including Al Qaeda establish a base in Central Asia to promote insurgency and launch attacks in an already volatile region.

Chechen Republic of Ichkeria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I remember this bloke being a particularly prominent member of Chechnya's ruling 'Shoora' or whatever and his allegiance to Al Qaeda was never in doubt..

Ibn Al-Khattab - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I consider the above sources considerably biased but a bit of googling should yield more info on the horrors visited on the Chechens by the 'Islamic Emirate of Ichkeria'.

The Russian at the time seem to have largely turned a blind eye to all this and only re engaged the separatists militarily once their regional ambitions became clear and they started fomenting trouble in neighbouring Dagestan and Ingushetia and carrying out terrorists attacks in the heart of Russia, such as the twin apartment bombings (I know there are conspiracy theories about the FSB staging the attack to break the stalemate and trigger further conflict in Chechnya but a close study of the time line of the 2nd Chechen war, with particular reference to the Dagestan incursions and the twin bombings would reveal who fired the first shot)

I have intimate knowledge of the whole issue as I speak the Russian lingo (long story but it’s fair to say there is a Romantic angle to it lol) and actually befriended a couple of Chechen and Ingush students many years ago. Both were extremely bright and I would not describe either of them as particularly religious but I found their extremely pejorative and racist views about the Russians (no doubt reciprocated by the latter) highly disturbing. I am not sure whether their experiences back home had brutalised them but they were what I would describe as highly callous and psychopathic in the way they related to the world around them in general and Russians in particular. Although their hatred of the Russians may have its origins elsewhere in the distant past, it was clear that it was largely being rationalised currently on the basis of religion (although the fact that I was a kufr myself did not appear to bother them much).
I remember they were big fans of the following website.

Kavkazcenter.com

As you can see, what drives the conflict in Chechnya is the same hate filled ideology that underlies similar conflicts in other parts of the world, including Pakistan, although justifications tend to vary in different contexts. I am sure the Russians have carried out horrible atrocities in Chechnya but the root cause of the current insurgency in that country is oil money driven Wahabbism..
So the bottom line is..The Russians may be bad but the Chechnyan separatists are worse and allowing the province to secede from Russia or supporting such an outcome could have potentially dangerous consequences for the rest of the world, including Pakistan..

Pakistani army kills Chechen fighters at Taliban, al-Qaeda base | World | RIA Novosti

Pakistan Says Uzbek, Chechen Fighters Aiding Taliban in Swat - Bloomberg

Chechnya continues to bleed

Peace

 

[humanfirst]

Is chechnia a disputed region as per UN?

 

[Developereo]

I have intimate knowledge of the whole issue as I speak the Russian lingo (long story but it’s fair to say there is a Romantic angle to it lol) and actually befriended a couple of Chechen and Ingush students many years ago. Both were extremely bright and I would not describe either of them as particularly religious but I found their extremely pejorative and racist views about the Russians (no doubt reciprocated by the latter) highly disturbing. I am not sure whether their experiences back home had brutalised them but they were what I would describe as highly callous and psychopathic in the way they related to the world around them in general and Russians in particular. Although their hatred of the Russians may have its origins elsewhere in the distant past, it was clear that it was largely being rationalised currently on the basis of religion

Stalin deported 650,000 Chechen, Ingushi, Kalmyks, and Karachai people. A quarter of them died.

The Chechen war has killed 50,000 civilians.

All the terrorist acts combined cannot even begin to add up to the brutality of Russians towards the Chechens.

Perhaps your 'Romantic angle' can educate you about the brutal history of Russia towards these people and help you understand why they hate Russia.

(although the fact that I was a kufr myself did not appear to bother them much).

Clearly, they were not religious bigots, then. Their issue with Russia is Russia itself, not religion.

 

[roadrunner]

In fact, the Chechens did run a de facto independent state between the end of the first Chechen war in 1996 and recommencement of hostilities in 1999.Instead of an Islamic utopia as promised by their leaders, what the Chechens got was a violent kleptocracy run by criminal gangs who oppressed and terrorised the population in the name of Islam (a bit like Afghanistan under the Taliban but only 10 times worse).Kidnapping for ransom soon became the main industry of the newly independent state and the principal operators were senior ministers in the 'Ichkerian government' itself. In addition to tacit approval from Western powers, the new administration also acquired the support of assorted Wahabbist groups from across the Muslim world and in turn helped Islamist groups including Al Qaeda establish a base in Central Asia to promote insurgency and launch attacks in an already volatile region.

Chechen Republic of Ichkeria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This might surprise you, but 3 years of independence following a war that devastated the country's infrastructure, is not likely to result in a scenario of good rulers and a paradise utopia.

So you might be able to follow. India was handed over to an Indian government that had been cultivated for many decades (Congress), and an Army that was not run by warlords. The transition was smooth. Compare that to Chechnya which did not have any structured government in place and the army were a bunch of rebels. It's taken India 60 years to get to the corrupt utopia that it is now, so why would Chechnya be a utopia after 3 years? Perhaps there is something that I'm missing here that only the romantic angle that you're so gleefully excited and proud of has explained..

I remember this bloke being a particularly prominent member of Chechnya's ruling 'Shoora' or whatever and his allegiance to Al Qaeda was never in doubt..

Ibn Al-Khattab - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I consider the above sources considerably biased but a bit of googling should yield more info on the horrors visited on the Chechens by the 'Islamic Emirate of Ichkeria'.

And this has what to do with anything I mentioned?

Reminder:
Chechen land being overrun by Russian troops.
Chechens being subject to brutal oppression that noone hears about.

If you're trying to put some balance, may I ask why? When a bomb goes off in Moscow the whole world hears about it. When an atrocity happens in Chechnya, noone does. I was putting the balance into this.

A saying of the Chechens:
"Muhammad may have been an Arab, but Allah is surely Chechen".

Very few of them are practitioners of Wahhabism.

They are Chechen Nationalists. That Nationalism for a homeland is their motivation. The Wahhabists usually are classed as foreigners.

The Russian at the time seem to have largely turned a blind eye to all this and only re engaged the separatists militarily once their regional ambitions became clear and they started fomenting trouble in neighbouring Dagestan and Ingushetia and carrying out terrorists attacks in the heart of Russia, such as the twin apartment bombings (I know there are conspiracy theories about the FSB staging the attack to break the stalemate and trigger further conflict in Chechnya but a close study of the time line of the 2nd Chechen war, with particular reference to the Dagestan incursions and the twin bombings would reveal who fired the first shot)

Difficult to see why the Chechens would want to plant apartment bombs when they had just obtained the independence they wanted.

I am sure the Russians have carried out horrible atrocities in Chechnya but the root cause of the current insurgency in that country is oil money driven Wahabbism..

This must be that misty eyed 'romantic angle' that left your head in a dizzy spin for all these years.

The Chechen conflict has been going on for centuries, it's even older than Wahhabism. What is your explanation for the early Chechen wars with Imperial Russia when Wahhabism did not exist?

So the bottom line is..The Russians may be bad but the Chechnyan separatists are worse and allowing the province to secede from Russia or supporting such an outcome could have potentially dangerous consequences for the rest of the world, including Pakistan..

Pakistani army kills Chechen fighters at Taliban, al-Qaeda base | World | RIA Novosti

Pakistan Says Uzbek, Chechen Fighters Aiding Taliban in Swat - Bloomberg

Chechnya continues to bleed

Peace

The Chechens are insignificant in Pakistan and Afghanistan. The Afghan Taliban is an Afghan movement, TTP are Pakistanis. Chechens Uzbeks, Tajiks are amongst them but not in great numbers.

 

[notsuperstitious]

More open support of terrosim as a tactic.

Its been engrained now.

 

[KS]

btw do you think Cossacks were right to take the area by force in the 17th/18th century?

What a ridiculous logic.

Do you think the Muslims were right to conquer Bharat by force ?

 

[roadrunner]

What a ridiculous logic.

Do you think the Muslims were right to conquer Bharat by force ?

I'm amazed at how dense all but one Indian (not you or anyone on this thread) is on this forum.

I'm of the opinion it's not right to invade and conquer lands. Presumably you were assuming I was saying it was alright to conquer and invade lands?

 

[KS]

I'm amazed at how dense all but one Indian (not you or anyone on this thread) is on this forum.

I'm of the opinion it's not right to invade and conquer lands. Presumably you were assuming I was saying it was alright to conquer and invade lands?

So you agree with me that Central Asian/Afghans were wrong in conquering and ruling Bharat ?

And I had written in plain simple English, still you understood me wrongly.

 

[justanobserver]

What a ridiculous logic.

Do you think the Muslims were right to conquer Bharat by force ?

Let's use the more politically correct term Central Asians...

 

[KS]

More open support of terrosim as a tactic.

Its been engrained now.

I am surprised to see this from Senior members,Think tanks etc.

BTW is Chechnya a 'UN mandated dispute' for our neighbours to voice their moral support ?

Let's use the more politically correct term Central Asians...

Edited

 

[roadrunner]

Karthic Sri, fateh etc.

ALL forms of terrorism are wrong. Whether it be in Moscow, Chechnya, or the brutalizing of Kashmiris by Indian security forces.

But I'm not interested in discussing this with people that cannot understand English (you two individuals clearly do not). It's either that or you're displaying the typical Indian trait of spinelessness/trolling.

 

[notsuperstitious]

I'm amazed at how dense all but one Indian (not you or anyone on this thread) is on this forum.

I'm of the opinion it's not right to invade and conquer lands. Presumably you were assuming I was saying it was alright to conquer and invade lands?

How silly, really.

Its not a question of whether its right or wrong to decide now. Its history and one must live with it.

There are hundreds of wrongs done by ppl in human history, and there are hundreds of causes today too for which one can fight and try to provide justice to ppl. But supporting terrorism is not a just tool for it.

I wonder what happens when terrorism supporters get a dose of their own medicine in (non un recognised terroritories ). Oh yes we know, they lose even the usual pretence of sense and start blaming the jews.

Losers.

Karthic Sri, fateh etc.

ALL forms of terrorism are wrong. Whether it be in Moscow, Chechnya, or the brutalizing of Kashmiris by Indian security forces.

But I'm not interested in discussing this with people that cannot understand English (you two individuals clearly do not). It's either that or you're displaying the typical Indian trait of spinelessness/trolling.

Shall I say you are displaying the typically pakistani trait of condemning terrorism and then supporting it too? Wasn't it you who kept saying Ajmal Kasab is some hindu guy from calcutta?

 

[KS]

Karthic Sri, fateh etc.

ALL forms of terrorism are wrong. Whether it be in Moscow, Chechnya, or the brutalizing of Kashmiris by Indian security forces.

See since you are bringing in Chechnya which is clearly an undisputed area how about balochistan where there have been equal cases of sec forces kidnapping balochis who want freedom ? Clearly the Khan of Kalat never wanted to join Pakistan and he was forced to join.

Clearly they are terrorists to you...as the Chechens are terrorists to the Russians.

How about leaving this to the Russians to sort out as you have no locus standi on their 'internal matter'. ?

And yeah me too not interested in discussing further with a person who indirectly supports terrorism. Lets finish it here.

 

[roadrunner]

See since you are bringing in Chechnya which is clearly an undisputed area how about balochistan where there have been equal cases of sec forces kidnapping balochis who want freedom ? Clearly the Khan of Kalat never wanted to join Pakistan and he was forced to join.

Clearly they are terrorists to you...as the Chechens are terrorists to the Russians.

How about leaving this to the Russians to sort out as you have no locus standi on their 'internal matter'. ?

And yeah me too not interested in discussing further with a person who indirectly supports terrorism. Lets finish it here.

What on earth are you on about you?

This is a discussion forum. We discuss pass opinions, and give facts.

I'm sure American Eagle won't be tempted to get into his P-59 and interfere in Russia's affairs on the back of this.

On balochistan, two things.. a) it's very low intensity. b) the Baloch people do not vote for seperatist political parties.

If there's large scale revolt in balochistan then I'd agree that the Baloch people clearly don't want to be part of Pakistan, like bangladesh. But that hasn't happened.

If you can't hold more intelligent conversations, then this one's over.

 

[StormShadow]

RIP brothers...we have a common enemy and we will avenge these acts.