Tatas to invest heavily post FDI hike in defence

[Dillinger]

You posted the document here? Please give me those.

PHIR DHUDNA PADEGA, I had long time back!

 

[AMCA]

I'm not an engineer either, economics is far more suitable since I am a munshi.

Yaara, at the very basic level, anechoic chambers (which is what the pic you've posted depicts) are essential elements for designing modern aircrafts (no, not just 5th gen ACs, I mean all modern ACs, they aren't just simple RCS measurement chambers). We need them in sufficient quantities and possessed of sufficient size and instrumentation.

Economics:- ergo my mentioning of the lack of any planned expenditure head in the current defence budget for facility and infra expansion in this sector.

well I have a very basic understanding of what it does and yes I am sure we have better and bigger facilities in NAL or in ADA. There is no other way these guys could have tested the LCA. What do you think about the facilities in RCI's Near-Field Diagnostic RCS Facility

 

[Dillinger]

Wannabe Punjabi ?

Asal Punjabiyoon key kiyaa duuuum (tail) hotiii hai ?



From my rotting body flowers shall grow...I am in them & that is eternity !

From your rotting body indeed, with maggots crawling out of your eye sockets lard belly.

 

[Men in Green]

BRO! He meant "tatas"!

@Men in Green Samjha isse.

Agr smjhaya to banned na hojaun

 

[he-man]

Wannabe Punjabi ?

Asal Punjabiyoon key kiyaa duuuum (tail) hotiii hai ?



From my rotting body flowers shall grow...I am in them & that is eternity !

Agr smjhaya to banned na hojaun

****,,i feel stupid to not take notice.

waise its pronounced as tatte..........not tatas

 

[SrNair]

This is true, inherently the private sector does indeed have no lack of motivation.

BUT, within the system we have created, it is more profitable for them to engage in backdoor import (undeclared screw driver giri) then actually innovate and engage in R&D, now by their very nature they are profit oriented enterprises, IF we ourselves enforce a condition wherein backdoor imports are more profitable than actual innovation then what do you think they will do.

NO ONE is arguing that the private sector's entry is a bad thing in itself, what I am saying is that under the current structural setup it will not yield much, change that setup and these private companies will indeed do their fair share and produce some relevant products.

You are right.This is something that our govt must show extra care.Private sector's only aim is profit.And foreign companies will use their most dirtiest tricks for preventing innovation of our industry.
But then again same issues also raised in 1990's when we privatise our automobile sector.Communists morons during that time creates some MNC phobia that foreign MNC will swallow our companies like TATA ,Mahindra etc .But opposite happened .
TATA bought Jaguar and Land Rover etc.
GoI have their own plan.They have their own clear aims.By giving this deal to private sector they reduce the workload of HAL and at the same time gave a chance for private sector to prove their mettle.If they failed to create innovation at least in a small level ,Govt may prevent further dealings with them .
And HAL wont sit idly .They will also began extreme effort to protect their monopoly.

 

[Gessler]

PHIR DHUDNA PADEGA, I had long time back!

Tho dhundo !

Give me the document, I say !!

 

[Dillinger]

well I have a very basic understanding of what it does and yes I am sure we have better and bigger facilities in NAL or in ADA. There is no other way these guys could have tested the LCA. What do you think about the facilities in RCI's Near-Field Diagnostic RCS Facility

Still not good enough-

Although it can take a full scale aircraft, but the essential closed environment tests are not possible on this rig (which is what I have been emphasizing upon).

No, bro, we don't have better facilities, Avinash Chander (as much as I genuinely doubt most of his statements) was lamenting about the same in his moist recent lecture at IDSA.

We are basically making do with limited far field tests and limited closed environment tests, that's all.

For example you need to conduct electromagnetic environmental effects testing, including intra-system EMC, HERP, HERO, and P-Static tests etc.

Let me list it out-

We need

1) RCS bistatic chamber

2) RCS large anechoic chamber

3) Something akin to a Missile engagement simulation area

4) Electromagnetic interference chamber

ETC. ETC. ETC.

 

[AMCA]

Still not good enough-

Although it can take a full scale aircraft, but the essential closed environment tests are not possible on this ring (which is what I have been emphasizing upon).

No, bro, we don't have better facilities, Avinash Chander (as much as I genuinely doubt most of his statements) was lamenting about the same in his moist recent lecture at IDSA.

We are basically making do with far field tests and limited closed environment tests, that's all.

For example you need to conduct electromagnetic environmental effects testing, including intra-system EMC, HERP, HERO, and P-Static tests etc.

Let me list it out-

We need

1) RCS bistatic chamber

2) RCS large anechoic chamber

3) Something akin to a Missile engagement simulation area

4) Electromagnetic interference chamber

ETC. ETC. ETC.

Hope we get this fast.. Well Anyways, better late than never.

 

[he-man]

Has anyone seen the labs in the National institutes of technology??NIT'S
Thats the reason why we are so behind,,,shit u need to see it to believe it

 

[Dillinger]

Hope we get this fast.. Well Anyways, better late than never.

That's the whole point bro.

The Chitradurga facility was supposed to have some of the critical stuff but the National green tribunal halted its completion last year, no high altitude test facility (which was Boeing's agreed offset condition), all of this adds up and we lag behind. One can, of course, always hope that someone will see the light of reason.

 

[Abingdonboy]

@Dillinger @sandy_3126

One possible way to go has got to be a DPSU-PVT sector partnership. The Public sector entities (DRDO/NAL) can be responsible for the research and development (important to keep strategically sensitive technologies under Govt control) and then outsource the production to the private sector who can use industrial best practices to produce quality products in greater numbers. As they are private entities there will inherently be checks and balances built into the contractual agreements and thus ensuring (theoretically ) both quality and quantity.

Looking at the DARPA model in the US this surely is a winning formula.


In this fantasy though HAL would largely have to be privatised, either being left intact as a single entity as it is now (probably not ideal) or broken up into smaller specialised components (rotary wing, fixed wing, avionics, after sales, post purchase upgrades etc).

The positive thing is that I do see this as a viable model and one that the MoD is perhaps already contemplating, the Kestral is an example of such:

(yes a Norwegian turret and US ATGM but this is a globalised world and to date no Indian entity produces anything comparable)


Much of the vehicle was designed by the DRDO, TATA came on board and gave certain design inputs and refined the product thanks to certain global brands under their umbrella (Supacat for example) and it was left to TATA to fabricate, integrate the various elements (turret, weapon systems, FCS etc) and produce the finished product.

 

[AMCA]

That's the whole point bro.

The Chitradurga facility was supposed to have some of the critical stuff but the National green tribunal halted its completion last year, no high altitude test facility (which was Boeing's agreed offset condition), all of this adds up and we lag behind. One can, of course, always hope that someone will see the light of reason.

That would force us to use western labs to calibrate our efforts, which is so so unwise..

 

[Gessler]

@Dillinger

What exactly is the rig depicted in this picture ?

 

[Dillinger]

@Dillinger

What exactly is the rig depicted in this picture ?

That's the NFDRF.

@Gessler as I was telling @AMCA, we have a credible near field rig (which is what AMCA had mentioned) and we have limited far field testing capability and the smaller anechoic chambers limit the closed environment tests we can conduct.

The picture is the NFDRF which can take a full size aircraft.

DRDO