Tatas to invest heavily post FDI hike in defence

[Dem!god]

The Marine One choppers used by the US president often escape the halo of glamour enjoyed by his aircraft fleet Air Force One. The Marine One fleet, which is the preferred alternative for presidential motorcades for safety reasons, are always a group of identical choppers, one of which carries the president with the others serving as decoys.

After the 9/11 terrorist attacks, it was decided that the Marine One helicopter fleet's communication, transportation and security systems needed to be upgraded. By 2002, the department of defence flagged off the VXX programme for this endeavour, only for it to be dust-binned seven years later because of massive cost overruns.

The Marine Corps restarted the programme soon after; by May 2014, the US Navy awarded Sikorsky Aircraft a $1.24-billion contract to build six presidential helicopters, and by 2023, the Stratford, Connecticut-headquartered company will deliver a replacement fleet of 21 aircraft.

That's doubtless a prestigious order for Sikorsky — as well as for one Indian aerospace and defence company that will be busy building the main body, or fuselage, of the new fleet at its Hyderabad factory in a joint venture with the American aircraft maker.

Tata Advanced Systems Ltd (TASL), a wholly owned subsidiary of Tata Sons, has an agreement to produce helicopter cabins in India; and for good measure a joint venture in which Sikorsky has a 26% stake makes roughly 5,000 detailed aerospace components in India.

In the Cross Hairs

The TASL-Sikorsky venture is one of four JVs that the Tatas have in the aerospace and defence sectors (see The Foreign Partners...), with the foreign partners holding 26% and the Indian conglomerate the rest.

Then, there are another half a dozen technology transfer agreements that TASL has signed up for making a range of aerospace and defence equipment, from air-to-air refuelling to combat management for ships.

Armed with 14 companies with interests in defence, the Tata group would seem to have a ready launch pad for the impending action in the sector, with an order book of Rs 8,000 crore and collective revenues of Rs 2,500 crore for 2013-14.

Know-how built over the years and indeed decades — whilst TASL was set up in 2007 by Ratan Tata, another company Tata MotorsBSE 0.06 % Defence Solutions has been selling buses and trucks to the army since 1956 — puts the group in an enviable position to step up the pace and make everything from complete radar systems and aircraft to future infantry combat vehicles (FICV) and replacements for Bofors guns.


Tatas to invest heavily post FDI hike in defence - The Times of India

 

[kbd-raaf]

We really do need more private sector industrial giants other than the dozen or so odd companies that currently dominate in India.

 

[TimeToScoot]

Sounds great to me!

 

[he-man]

Its finally happening people........

 

[Dillinger]

Its finally happening people........

Don't get so upbeat, while they do have some good products to their name, TATA and co. are world champions at screw driver giri, so much so that they can make the OFB chaps blush.

No amount of cosmetic changes and JVs will build the MIC that India needs, for that concrete structural changes are required.

Lets start with the requisite infrastructure, of which there is so little in India, in fact I found my self (for the first time in a long time) nodding in agreement with Shri Avinash Ji as he lamented the absence of said infrastructure in detail in his recent IDSA lecture.

And that's what the DPSUs have to deal with, which do have access to a limited type and quality of test infra, the private entities don't even have that, compare this to small scale enterprises located in foreign countries which have their own private test ranges.

Torpedo ko test karne ke liye test rig hai nahi which can simulate sea state conditions lekin torpedo toh zaroor banayenge. Hell, Egypt had a flying engine test bed back in the 60s when it was contemplating engine development, aur bhai hamare pas to aaj bhi nahi hai. This is a very generic and super simplified overview, the details would be truly depressing.

The problems associated with the anemic nature of our defence manufacturing are systemic tendencies of the very structures we've put in place and systemic tendencies by dint of being inherent in the said system don't go away without an actual overhaul (in the truest meaning of said word).

 

[he-man]

Don't get so upbeat, while they do have some good products to their name, TATA and co. are world champions at screw driver giri, so much so that they can make the OFB chaps blush.

No amount of cosmetic changes and JVs will build the MIC that India needs, for that concrete structural changes are required.

Lets start with the requisite infrastructure, of which is there is so little in India, in fact I found my self (for the first time in a long time) nodding in agreement with Shri Avinash Ji as he lamented the absence of said infrastructure in detail in his recent IDSA lecture.

And that's what the DPSUs have to deal with, which do have access to a limited type and quality of test infra, the private entities don't even have that, compare this to small scale enterprises located in foreign countries which have their own private test ranges.

Torpedo ko test karne ke liye test rig hai nahi which can simulate sea state conditions lekin torpedo toh zaroor banayenge. Hell, Egypt has a flying engine test bed back in the 60s when it was contemplating engine development, aur bhai hamare pas to aaj bhi nahi hai. This is a very generic and super simplified overview, the details would be truly depressing.

The problems associated with the anemic mature of our defence manufacturing is a systemic tendency of the very structures we've put in place and systemic tendencies by dint of being inherent in the said system don't go away without an actual overhaul (in truest meaning of said word).

Yes u are right,,i am afraid.
We need at least 5-6 years to start designing something on our own i think

 

[Dillinger]

Yes u are right,,i am afraid.
We need at least 5-6 years to start designing something on our own i think

Lol, we have plenty of folks who can design systems, unfortunately said designs need to be then calibrated and debugged for which the aforementioned infrastructure is required, and that's putting it in very simple terms.

Even where basic test rigs are available, compare their quality to what the other's are working with, and mind you this is not an argument which can be objected to by stating that much like other's have better technology they also have better test rigs thereby insinuating that we somehow cannot build said infrastructure. We very much can, but we scrimp on it, cut corners (lack of higher order leadership in organisations, which do not take cognizance of the fact that the essentials are just not in place, an engineer can only do so much, imagine having achieved 90% of the dry thrust on the Kaveri in the absence of in-country aforementioned crucial infra, I call that a miracle) and then completely reject what the logical outcome (delays, time overruns, teething issues etc.) points towards (IKARA:- Insufficient knowledge and random action, born out of an absolute lack of any experience on part of the powers that be in said matters).

Here let me give you an example:-

That btw is a pretty big F-18 hanging in there. The picture depicts the Advanced System Integration Lab, NAWC.

Another pic from the ASIL.

The NAVAIR IBST.

AND NOW FOR THE PIECE DE RESISTANCE

The NAL CEM-Lab.

Spot the difference, mind you, if you can build a smaller and stringier anechoic chamber then you can build far bigger ones too with specific and differing testing parameters. Its all about pouring in the money.


BTW, since TATA and Mahindra AND Kalyani are all going to build artillery pieces, do any of them have their own firing ranges? The answer is no, why, because that's what our laws (yup, laws) stipulate. So they had best line up for using one of the army's firing ranges, and best of luck with that.

EDIT:- GOT THE MESA PIC WRONG, HAD MISLABELED IT IN MY ARCHIVES, ITS ANOTHER PIC OF THE ASIL ONLY.

@Abingdonboy @Gessler

 

[he-man]

Lol, we have plenty of folks who can design systems, unfortunately said designs need to be then calibrated and debugged for which the aforementioned infrastructure is required, and that's putting it in very simple terms.

Even where basic test rigs are available, compare their quality to what the other's are working with, and mind you this is not an argument which can be objected to by stating that much like other's have better technology they also have better test rigs thereby insinuating that we somehow cannot build said infrastructure. We very much can, but we scrimp on it, cut corners (lack of higher order leadership in organisations, which do not take cognizance of the fact that the essentials are just not in place, an engineer can only do so much, imagine having achieved 90% of the dry thrust on the Kaveri in the absence of in-country aforementioned crucial infra, I call that a miracle) and then completely reject what the logical outcome (delays, time overruns, teething issues etc.) points towards (IKARA:- Insufficient knowledge and random action, born out of an absolute lack of any experience on part of the powers that be in said matters).

Here let me give you an example:-

That btw is a pretty big F-18 hanging in there. The picture depicts the Advanced System Integration Lab, NAWC.

The Missile Engagement Simulation Arena.

The NAVAIR IBST.

AND NOW FOR THE PIECE DE RESISTANCE

The NAL CEM-Lab.

Spot the difference, mind you, if you can build a smaller and stringier anechoic chamber then you can build far bigger ones too with specific and differing testing parameters. Its all about pouring in the money.


BTW, since TATA and Mahindra AND Kalyani are all going to build artillery pieces, do any of them have their own firing ranges? The answer is no, why, because that's what our laws (yup, laws) stipulate. So they had best line up for using one of the army's firing ranges, and best of luck with that.

LOL,,,,damn we are fucked for sure.

have u seen the lego movie??

 

[Dillinger]

LOL,,,,damn we are fucked for sure.

have u seen the lego movie??

This is the government's job, to facilitate such infrastructure, at least for the DPSUs, and of course the private companies should have access till they get up to speed.

And, this is just one example as such, kahaani bhot hi lambi hai.

 

[he-man]

This is the government's job, to facilitate such infrastructure, at least for the DPSUs, and of course the private companies should have access till they get up to speed.

And, this is just one example as such, kahaani bhot hi lambi hai.

Sure man,,,i think u need to tell this to
@gslv mk3

I kinda know how bad our current position really is

 

[Dillinger]

Sure man,,,i think u need to tell this to
@gslv mk3

I kinda know how bad our current position really is

Why GSLV? Unless you're referring to the fact that the govt. finally relented and facilitated the setting up of the cryo test rig for the ISRO very late into the game thereby ensuring that our cryo efforts were derailed? ISRO's actually doing quite a bit of work even with limited infra, direct PMO supervision among other things has ensured that ISRO has a well oiled captive chain of labs and suppliers (will provide the ISRO document on the overwhelming amount of tech they've transferred to Indian private companies, its mind boggling).

 

[gslv mk3]

Sure man,,,i think u need to tell this to
@gslv mk3

I kinda know how bad our current position really is

I never said infrastructure is sufficient..

 

[he-man]

I never said infrastructure is sufficient..

U see the difference there!!
damn i am embarassed

Why GSLV? Unless you're referring to the fact that the govt. finally relented and facilitated the setting up of the cryo test rig for the ISRO very late into the game thereby ensuring that our cryo efforts were derailed? ISRO's actually doing quite a bit of work even with limited infra, direct PMO supervision among other things has ensured that ISRO has a well oiled captive chain of labs and suppliers (will provide the ISRO document on the overwhelming amount of tech they've transferred to Indian private companies, its mind boggling).

Yes isro has actually done very well with the stupid 1 billion$ budget per year,,last year it was just 800 million$ i think.
We can easily increase the research spending,,,,but we continue to not to..............

 

[gslv mk3]

U see the difference there!!

??

 

[he-man]

??

look at our stupid *** anechoic chamber,,,how the hell can we make anything meaningful??