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Talks minus Kashmir with India not acceptable to Pakistan: Sartaj Aziz

Mr Dawood is no one in Balochistan. He had hardly ever set foot here. His grandfather had a small state around Qalat which he acceded to Pakistan. His father was also loyal. Mr Dawood has no support here. And btw there were no kings of Baluchistan. We have a different system.
Is the situation serious there or everything is OK. Infact trains coming from Rawalpindi to Quetta r routinley attacked. Yesterday some polio workers were attacked
 
Is the situation serious there or everything is OK. Infact trains coming from Rawalpindi to Quetta r routinley attacked. Yesterday some polio workers were attacked

It depends. There are more than one factions with different motives.

1. Attacks in Quetta are done by sectarian and religious extremists. Taliban associates mostly.
2. Kidnappings, car snatching and ransom mostly by criminal gangs which are sheltered by Tribal Chiefs. They are also responsible for abductions of Sikh and Hindus for ransom. Many are government ministers by the way.

3. Target killings of non locals by locals who are paid a handsome money for each person he kills. Locals don't have personal enmity but they are poor and do it for money. Money comes from London and Dubai.

4. Attacks on national infrastructure, installations and security forces comes from foreign trained militants. Trained mostly in South Afghanistan, Iran and India. Their targets are decided by foreign intelligence. ( these things are no secret to us)

While this will paint a very bleak picture, they only make less than 5% of population. In the overall picture, people remain loyal to Pakistan. Army has recruited alot from Baluchistan recently and this has brought jobs and sense of belonging to people. Baluchistan is very vast. Situation is nowhere near as bad as news media depicts it. In major populated cities, things are fine.
 
Obviously Kashmir is most problematic issue between two countries. Why would India shy away from discussing Kashmir?
It wants to but Pakistan gives priority to talking with the lame duck Hurriyat instead which has almost zero credibility in Kashmir.

And does the Hurriyat represent the Kashmiris in Pak Occupied Kashmir too?
 
It depends. There are more than one factions with different motives.

1. Attacks in Quetta are done by sectarian and religious extremists. Taliban associates mostly.
2. Kidnappings, car snatching and ransom mostly by criminal gangs which are sheltered by Tribal Chiefs. They are also responsible for abductions of Sikh and Hindus for ransom. Many are government ministers by the way.

3. Target killings of non locals by locals who are paid a handsome money for each person he kills. Locals don't have personal enmity but they are poor and do it for money. Money comes from London and Dubai.

4. Attacks on national infrastructure, installations and security forces comes from foreign trained militants. Trained mostly in South Afghanistan, Iran and India. Their targets are decided by foreign intelligence. ( these things are no secret to us)

While this will paint a very bleak picture, they only make less than 5% of population. In the overall picture, people remain loyal to Pakistan. Army has recruited alot from Baluchistan recently and this has brought jobs and sense of belonging to people. Baluchistan is very vast. Situation is nowhere near as bad as news media depicts it. In major populated cities, things are fine.

what about the attacks on polio workers,if the workers giving polio vaccinations stop doing their job,don't u think polio will spread not in Balochistan but entire pakistan. Polio is a dreaded disease
About the Indian hand in Balochistan,I am not aware. All I know the revolt against Pakistan has been going on right 1948,even RAW was not born,recently I saw a footage of Balochis protesting against Pakistani rule.
 
It wants to but Pakistan gives priority to talking with the lame duck Hurriyat instead which has almost zero credibility in Kashmir.

And does the Hurriyat represent the Kashmiris in Pak Occupied Kashmir too?

Attach a condition that Pakistan has to meet say pro India groups from Kashmir as well. If Hurriat has no roots in Kashmir then it is even better for India.

The thing is this issue has bogged us down for way too long. I see a general sentiment here in Indian members that India has grown powerful enough that it does not need to resolve this issue. This is not a good sign, for India itself. There are always ups and downs for a nation. Pakistan will not always be in problems and India will not always be favored by west. We are still to overcome our resentments from Moghul era. Pakistan will always be there on your west in future. We keep sowing hatred with arrogance and our generations will curse us. And let's face it, it happens on both sides. Sane thing will be to resolve our issues and start moving forward. It will take a long time but process should start.
 
I see a general sentiment here in Indian members that India has grown powerful enough that it does not need to resolve this issue. This is not a good sign, for India itself.
I disagree here. It's not as simple as that.

Can one have talks with a gun pointed at one's head? For far too long has Pakistan indulged in double speak and keeping Kashmir on the boil through their stooges in Kashmir, the Hurriyat, the self styled 'representatives' of the Kashmiris who have almost zero credibility in the Valley.

The truth is that the Pak Army which controls Pakistan's foreign policy especially in relation to India and Afghanistan, needs to keep the Indian 'threat' alive, without which their very raison d'etre would be at stake. They would be sidelined and lose their importance in Pakistan. So they need an enemy to keep up the charade, which needless to say is India. And what better way than to keep Kashmir on the boil?

And then there are vested interests in Pakistan that want to keep Indo-Pak hostilities alive. An example is the JuD that collects millions of rupees from the sheeple, by its anti-India tirades, without which contributions would dry up. They need a reason which is the 'liberation of Kashmir'. A very convenient motive as this could last for decades resulting in a steady flow of funds into their coffers.

There are wheels within wheels and too many vested interest who do not want peace. And the Hurriyat is a convenient Trojan Horse planted in Kashmir by Pakistan's ISI and the Pak Establishment at large.

The Pakistan Army must seriously reconsider their geopolitical strategy and cease supporting groups inimical to peace in the region, press the restart button in foreign policy that uses terrorist groups as 'strategic assets' (as Gen Kayani himself had said) and change the dynamics in its relations with India that poses no threat at the present juncture.
 
what about the attacks on polio workers,if the workers giving polio vaccinations stop doing their job,don't u think polio will spread not in Balochistan but entire pakistan. Polio is a dreaded disease
About the Indian hand in Balochistan,I am not aware. All I know the revolt against Pakistan has been going on right 1948,even RAW was not born,recently I saw a footage of Balochis protesting against Pakistani rule.

Not since 1948. Your media will want to situation worst. There was a small incident in Qalat in 1948 but no fight or insurgency. Then in 1957 against one unit of Ayub Khan. In 1973 against dismissal of provincial governments by ZA Bhutto. And then in Pervez Musharraf era. None of these except the current one lasted more than a couple of years. It does not have widespread support. People of Baluchistan are not fanatics like TTP though some have joined them. People are more concerned with making a livelihood in this arid land.

People here have no issue with polio vaccine. Attacks mostly are from Taliban who see it as a way of making a news headlines and way of humiliating government. Polio teams are easy target so they pay the price unfortunately. Lately, some attacks on polio teams were also by foreign funded militants. I am not expecting you to believe it but your new government works to isolate and humiliate Pakistan. Intelligence Agencies play dirty games and none is white lily here but really wish your government had given them some red lines. Polio teams are just not a fair target just so as to humiliate Pakistan internationally. Balochistan actually has been polio free for two years but only last year it resurfaced here.
 
Not since 1948. Your media will want to situation worst. There was a small incident in Qalat in 1948 but no fight or insurgency. Then in 1957 against one unit of Ayub Khan. In 1973 against dismissal of provincial governments by ZA Bhutto. And then in Pervez Musharraf era. None of these except the current one lasted more than a couple of years. It does not have widespread support. People of Baluchistan are not fanatics like TTP though some have joined them. People are more concerned with making a livelihood in this arid land.

People here have no issue with polio vaccine. Attacks mostly are from Taliban who see it as a way of making a news headlines and way of humiliating government. Polio teams are easy target so they pay the price unfortunately. Lately, some attacks on polio teams were also by foreign funded militants. I am not expecting you to believe it but your new government works to isolate and humiliate Pakistan. Intelligence Agencies play dirty games and none is white lily here but really wish your government had given them some red lines. Polio teams are just not a fair target just so as to humiliate Pakistan internationally. Balochistan actually has been polio free for two years but only last year it resurfaced here.
Thanks for sharing the information. I hope there r no future attacks against Polio workers,not only in Balochistan or any other Pakistani city but entire world. Let us make the whole world POLIO FREE.
 
I disagree here. It's not as simple as that.

Can one have talks with a gun pointed at one's head? For far too long has Pakistan indulged in double speak and keeping Kashmir on the boil through their stooges in Kashmir, the Hurriyat, the self styled 'representatives' of the Kashmiris who have almost zero credibility in the Valley.

The truth is that the Pak Army which controls Pakistan's foreign policy especially in relation to India and Afghanistan, needs to keep the Indian 'threat' alive, without which their very raison d'etre would be at stake. They would be sidelined and lose their importance in Pakistan. So they need an enemy to keep up the charade, which needless to say is India. And what better way than to keep Kashmir on the boil?

And then there are vested interests in Pakistan that want to keep Indo-Pak hostilities alive. An example is the JuD that collects millions of rupees from the sheeple, by its anti-India tirades, without which contributions would dry up. They need a reason which is the 'liberation of Kashmir'. A very convenient motive as this could last for decades resulting in a steady flow of funds into their coffers.

There are wheels within wheels and too many vested interest who do not want peace. And the Hurriyat is a convenient Trojan Horse planted in Kashmir by Pakistan's ISI and the Pak Establishment at large.

The Pakistan Army must seriously reconsider their geopolitical strategy and cease supporting groups inimical to peace in the region, press the restart button in foreign policy that uses terrorist groups as 'strategic assets' (as Gen Kayani himself had said) and change the dynamics in its relations with India that poses no threat at the present juncture.

It's not simple off course. But in fact India right now is in unique position to make progress here on this issue, if you could shed the impression of talk and mediator as a sign of weakness. Political parties in India are highly dependent on voter sentiment for their survival and it ties their hands on making bold decisions for the long term good of India itself. Consider following:

1. India has a degree of leverage on US and west now along with Russia. If India feels Pakistan will betray its commitments they can act as guarantors, given the weak economy of Pakistan right now and the leverage they have on Pakistan.

2. Resolving this issue frees up a lot of resources for India which it can divert to social development, which let's agree needs attention. These resources will also help India in its look east policy and bolster its status there.

3. Making people of Kashmir part of the solution will bolster India's image at diplomatic level which, let's agree again does not match its economic image.

4. Army does control foreign policy but army also keeps Pakistan stable. I know you will disagree here but the truth is army is the only institute which is trusted by people and internal threats don't play well for its own very existence. There has been a change in Army's thinking and it has become more state minded than non state actors minded. There is opportunity for India right there.

5. Truth be told, we in Pakistan have been wary of threats to our existence and independence. So we react sharply even if it just is our perception. More hostile and insulting Indian attitude gets, more we will go in overdrive to react. Now if you can step back a little and see things in long term, you will know for better part of our history we have been ahead than India in terms of life style, growth and poverty etc. Population to resource ratio for Pakistan is better than it is for India. But you have set your economy on right path in two decades and we have not. So you are better off. But Pakistan is not doomed, it is no small country and can do alot better in reasonably less time. If threat remains in our perception, all that growth turns into weapons, for both countries. This has the potential of undoing growth for both nations. Till what time we will keep indulging in conflicts?

Europe is a good example. They have small and large countries. They fought and hated each others for centuries. Worst of conflicts in entire human history happened there. When they had killed enough of their neighbors, they realized either they can not change their neighbors, ever! Either keep killing and dying or sort out their differences and look to developing their countries. So India and Pakistan can fight and kill for next many centuries and come to same conclusion or just use their heads and realize they can not finish off each other. Not even with nuclear weapons. Both countries will have to show flexibility here. Not as a sign of weakness but as a sign of prudence.

Or just keep killing each other. That would please some here.
 
If you have something else in mind, please share with us we are open to suggestions.......

The Pakistani desire that talks would make India give Kashmir to Pakistan is just a fairly tale or day dreaming by Pakistan at best.

The longer Pakistan stays in this dreaming world, the worst for Pakistan. It does not hurt India one bit, if Pakistan remains in this dreamy state and keeps making statements to this regards.

The practical/realistic solution is only one - make LOC into IB. In addition there could be special visa free travel for people of the two states. There could be give and take of a few positions on border. That's all. The sooner Pakistan realizes this the better for itself.

All arguments/statements/dreams/desires/struggle/comments by Pakistan on Kashmir are futile. No country has ever given its state to another country based on comments. Pakistan is digging its own grave by focusing on only one issue - Kashmir and forgetting about the importance of developing its country. Anyhow we do not mind even if you continue this way, you gonna hurt yourself only and destroy your country future.

Pakistan already lost B/D in bid to take Kashmir. Its not too late, stop now, or else there is nothing to stop further downfall of Pakistan. But no matter what happens every REALISTIC/PRACTICAL Pakistani should know Kashmir is always gonna stay with India. Only day dreamer Pakistani living in fantasy world would think talks will lead India to give Kashmir to Pakistan. More Pakistanis live in this fantasy world, more worse for Pakistan.

It's not simple off course. But in fact India right now is in unique position to make progress here on this issue, if you could shed the impression of talk and mediator as a sign of weakness. Political parties in India are highly dependent on voter sentiment for their survival and it ties their hands on making bold decisions for the long term good of India itself. Consider following:

1. India has a degree of leverage on US and west now along with Russia. If India feels Pakistan will betray its commitments they can act as guarantors, given the weak economy of Pakistan right now and the leverage they have on Pakistan.

2. Resolving this issue frees up a lot of resources for India which it can divert to social development, which let's agree needs attention. These resources will also help India in its look east policy and bolster its status there.

3. Making people of Kashmir part of the solution will bolster India's image at diplomatic level which, let's agree again does not match its economic image.

4. Army does control foreign policy but army also keeps Pakistan stable. I know you will disagree here but the truth is army is the only institute which is trusted by people and internal threats don't play well for its own very existence. There has been a change in Army's thinking and it has become more state minded than non state actors minded. There is opportunity for India right there.

5. Truth be told, we in Pakistan have been wary of threats to our existence and independence. So we react sharply even if it just is our perception. More hostile and insulting Indian attitude gets, more we will go in overdrive to react. Now if you can step back a little and see things in long term, you will know for better part of our history we have been ahead than India in terms of life style, growth and poverty etc. Population to resource ratio for Pakistan is better than it is for India. But you have set your economy on right path in two decades and we have not. So you are better off. But Pakistan is not doomed, it is no small country and can do alot better in reasonably less time. If threat remains in our perception, all that growth turns into weapons, for both countries. This has the potential of undoing growth for both nations. Till what time we will keep indulging in conflicts?

Europe is a good example. They have small and large countries. They fought and hated each others for centuries. Worst of conflicts in entire human history happened there. When they had killed enough of their neighbors, they realized either they can not change their neighbors, ever! Either keep killing and dying or sort out their differences and look to developing their countries. So India and Pakistan can fight and kill for next many centuries and come to same conclusion or just use their heads and realize they can not finish off each other. Not even with nuclear weapons. Both countries will have to show flexibility here. Not as a sign of weakness but as a sign of prudence.

Or just keep killing each other. That would please some here.


Resolving Kashmir. What you mean by resolution? Give you Kashmir by plebiscite or make it a free country. Day dreaming too much? Not gonna happen.

So tell me a solution which is also acceptable to India? tell me?
 
The Pakistani desire that talks would make India give Kashmir to Pakistan is just a fairly tale or day dreaming by Pakistan at best.

The longer Pakistan stays in this dreaming world, the worst for Pakistan. It does not hurt India one bit, if Pakistan remains in this dreamy state and keeps making statements to this regards.

The practical/realistic solution is only one - make LOC into IB. In addition there could be special visa free travel for people of the two states. There could be give and take of a few positions on border. That's all. The sooner Pakistan realizes this the better for itself.

All arguments/statements/dreams/desires/struggle/comments by Pakistan on Kashmir are futile. No country has ever given its state to another country based on comments. Pakistan is digging its own grave by focusing on only one issue - Kashmir and forgetting about the importance of developing its country. Anyhow we do not mind even if you continue this way, you gonna hurt yourself only and destroy your country future.

Pakistan already lost B/D in bid to take Kashmir. Its not too late, stop now, or else there is nothing to stop further downfall of Pakistan. But no matter what happens every REALISTIC/PRACTICAL Pakistani should know Kashmir is always gonna stay with India. Only day dreamer Pakistani living in fantasy world would think talks will lead India to give Kashmir to Pakistan. More Pakistanis live in this fantasy world, more worse for Pakistan.




Resolving Kashmir. What you mean by resolution? Give you Kashmir by plebiscite or make it a free country. Day dreaming too much? Not gonna happen.

So tell me a solution which is also acceptable to India? tell me?

You sir, are not a person who can find solutions. I'm pretty sure there are many in your country who can.
 
The Pakistani desire that talks would make India give Kashmir to Pakistan is just a fairly tale or day dreaming by Pakistan at best.

The longer Pakistan stays in this dreaming world, the worst for Pakistan. It does not hurt India one bit, if Pakistan remains in this dreamy state and keeps making statements to this regards.

The practical/realistic solution is only one - make LOC into IB. In addition there could be special visa free travel for people of the two states. There could be give and take of a few positions on border. That's all. The sooner Pakistan realizes this the better for itself.

All arguments/statements/dreams/desires/struggle/comments by Pakistan on Kashmir are futile. No country has ever given its state to another country based on comments. Pakistan is digging its own grave by focusing on only one issue - Kashmir and forgetting about the importance of developing its country. Anyhow we do not mind even if you continue this way, you gonna hurt yourself only and destroy your country future.

Pakistan already lost B/D in bid to take Kashmir. Its not too late, stop now, or else there is nothing to stop further downfall of Pakistan. But no matter what happens every REALISTIC/PRACTICAL Pakistani should know Kashmir is always gonna stay with India. Only day dreamer Pakistani living in fantasy world would think talks will lead India to give Kashmir to Pakistan. More Pakistanis live in this fantasy world, more worse for Pakistan.




Resolving Kashmir. What you mean by resolution? Give you Kashmir by plebiscite or make it a free country. Day dreaming too much? Not gonna happen.

So tell me a solution which is also acceptable to India? tell me?

Exactly anything will work as long as India losses the Control of J&K & the Rivers
 
Then i dont wanna talk to you either. Katti.

images

Reminds me of how US uses a mere lure of "talks" with NK/Iran to get them do what it wants!

I am amazed at how Pakistan has turned "talks" into some kind of "carrots" for India! What is in those talks for India anyway?
 
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