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Beautiful Post : Kashmir - SarthakGanguly's Logical Comment

Levina be sensible; do you think 'articles' substantiate the presence of Chinese Troops anymore than 'articles' substantiated the presence of WMDs in Iraq - These are 5000 troops we're talking about....where the heck are they in GB ?

Are they hiding under a rock ?

Are they disguised as the local flora & fauna ?

How do you hide 5000 troops ?

There are Engineers in GB, in AJK, in Punjab, in Baluchistan, in Sindh, in KPK & any other part of Pakistan where Pakistan & China are collaborating !

Last I checked Engineers don't equal Soldiers !

And the Chinese Minister did not talk about the presence of troops in Pakistan but the presence of Chinese Personnel right after the article mentions Pak-China plans to build an Economic Corridor !

Besides ask yourself why would Pakistan want Chinese Troops in GB or AJK ? To what purpose ?

To fight you guys ? The Chinese don't fight for other countries & mostly they don't fight at all....their Foreign Policy isn't geared like that !

And why would we need the help of 5000 Chinese troops to fight India ? We've got a few hundred thousand eyeball to eyeball with their Indian counterparts already !

Don't believe me???

India asks China to cease activities in Azad Kashmir: Arun Jaitley - Economic Times

I'm sure minister of a state would not lie.


Armstrong said:
@levina - Who is that cutu bootuu in your avatar ? :kiss3:

Mary Kom :haha:
Wanna try my punch??? :lol:

:p::bunny:
 

The article reads: The presence of Chinese Army troops has been witnessed in recent times and there numbers were estimated to be around 5,000 by the Army couple of years ago. They were mainly involved in construction activities there.

What troops are involved in Construction Activities ? o_O

They are Engineers, Construction Workers etc. from both Private & Public enterprises in China !

Besides if the presence of Chinese Army Troops have been 'witnessed' - Surely no one was stopping them from taking a snap for evidence ? :undecided:

P.S Politicians lie all the time but more often than not they give twist to anything they think they can give a twist to. That coupled with sensationalist Journalism usually ends up creating such senseless claims ! :crazy:

Mary Kom :haha:
Wanna try my punch??? :lol:

:p::bunny:

Mary who ? :what:

Khair I was talking about that kid in your avatar ? If he was my nephew....than Thank God he didn't get your eyes ! :rofl:
 
The article reads: The presence of Chinese Army troops has been witnessed in recent times and there numbers were estimated to be around 5,000 by the Army couple of years ago. They were mainly involved in construction activities there.

What troops are involved in Construction Activities ? o_O

They are Engineers, Construction Workers etc. from both Private & Public enterprises in China !

Besides if the presence of Chinese Army Troops have been 'witnessed' - Surely no one was stopping them from taking a snap for evidence ? :undecided:
Call it whatever you want to but presence of Chinese in the region will soon be a headache for Pakistan, India's advice should be taken seriously.
Similarly India had forever been shouting from the roof tops about the presence of militant training camps in Azad Kashmir.And just when everyone turned a blind eye it started to back fire. Now Pakistan has to fight terrorism from within.
Understand that when someone as senior as Mr.Arun Jaitley talks about it then he does that only after gathering sufficient intelligence reports on the matter, because he's answerable to so many.Its not like reneging on the empty promises after elections.


Armstrong said:
Mary who ? :what:
You don't know her???
She's the best woman boxer India ever had.
Armstrong said:
Khair I was talking about that kid in your avatar ? If he was my nephew....than Thank God he didn't get your eyes ! :rofl:
By gods grace other than his Burmese nose and forehead none of his facial features are like mine.Hes ditto like his dad. Lol
 
Call it whatever you want to but presence of Chinese in the region will soon be a headache for Pakistan, India's advice should be taken seriously.
Similarly India had forever been shouting from the roof tops about the presence of militant training camps in Azad Kashmir.And just when everyone turned a blind eye it started to back fire. Now Pakistan has to fight terrorism from within.
Understand that when someone as senior as Mr.Arun Jaitley talks about it then he does that only after gathering sufficient intelligence reports on the matter, because he's answerable to so many.Its not like reneging on the empty promises after elections.

Auntie Jee there is much that we can advise you about too so keep your advice to yourself ! :bunny:

Surely some of those sufficient intelligence reports would've coughed up an atom's worth of evidence....or maybe us Pakistanis have a separate underground city in GB which is impermeable to any intrusion & perfectly concealed where we keep Chinese Soldiers ! :o:

You don't know her???
She's the best woman boxer India ever had.

No I don't know her; why would I know a woman boxer from India ? :what:

I don't follow boxing ! :undecided:

By gods grace other than his Burmese nose and forehead none of his facial features are like mine.Hes ditto like his dad. Lol

By god's grace ? Kiyun aap key shakal mein kiya kharabi haiii ? :unsure:
 
All of these proved to be defeats for Pakistan. There will always be "some others" present on Earth unless Pakistan moves to Mars. Oh wait, India is already there!

Oh so you holy highness are revealing that you have conducted objectives base analysis of all past adventures, based on that reached to this conclusion .... ???

plz share it here, it will be educating for all of ignorant people as till now we are thinking that except 71 all remain undecided ....

let me point out that you missed my point of third party mediation b/w India & Pakistan during all that situations but either you mistook it or that was a troll attempt
 
Filing the complaint under Chap 6 and not under Chap 7 was mere technicality.

my dear it was not just a 'mere' technicality as you suggest, but it reveal the actual understanding of Indian government of the situation and the situation on the ground in Kashmir during that time. (01 Jan 1948)

Indian Complaint to the Security Council, lst January 1948

For your Kind information these two different chapter of UN charter deals with different situations, clearly visible and understandable to everyone but not to Indians.

Chapter VI deals with 'Disputes' of any kind between states.

Indian Government by filling the complain against Pakistan under this chapter accepted Kashmir as a 'Disputed Territory' & denied to term local uprising of Kashmir as a threat to the Peace, breach of Peace or the act of Aggression which falls under the chapter VII.

Chapter VII deals with : ACTION WITH RESPECT TO THREATS TO THE PEACE, BREACHES OF THE PEACE, AND ACTS OF AGGRESSION

If the Kashmir upraising was an act of aggression by Pakistan and was a threat or a breach of peace of the region than

Why India did not file her complain under chapter VII ... ??

Why India accepted Pakistan as a Lawful & Equivalent party of the disputed under UN resolution .... ???

Why India didn't seek aggressive help of International community against Pakistan by filling the complain under chapter VII .... ??

My dear "Action Speak Louder then Word", now I request to please term it again a 'MERE' Technicality

Chap 6 resolutions are meant to be recommendatory while Chap 7 resolutions are obligatory. India didn't want anything that would bind her for life.

Dear there is just a difference b/w the implementation of resolutions under both chapters, as Chapter 6 prefers and recommend the settlement of the dispute between the parties of the dispute peacefully under the recommendation of UN / SC.

While under chapter 7 UN / SC can take 'appropriate' action, technically speaking every resolution of UN is obligatory to all of its members, but differ is just in the degree of implementation; some are just moral obligation and other are binding.

I don't want to say but India by not implementing the UN resolution passed under Chapter 6 on its own request proving herself as an immoral state.

India's complaint against Pakistan was, is and will always be that Kashmir had lawfully acceded to India and that Pakistan is the aggressor.

Following are excerpts from Sir Owen Dixon's report. He was narrating New Delhi's position.

Upon a number of occasions in the course of the period beginning with the reference on 1 January 1948 of the Kashmir dispute to the Security Council, India had advanced not only the contention to which I have already referred that Pakistan was an aggressor but the further contention that this should be declared. [Dixon Report, S/ 1791, pg 7]

I shall enumerate the objections briefly as I collected them from the telegram and from my discussion with the Prime Minister at Delhi. (1) Pakistan is an aggressor and it would be to surrender to aggression to allow her to take any part in the plebiscite. [Dixon Report, S/1791, pg 23]
It is amusing that you want to debate about Kashmir and yet don't know anything about India's official position.

Sarkar India changes its stance regarding Kashmir every now and then, its not something new.

India took this stance after the appointment of Sir Owen Dixon by UN as the mediator for India and Pakistan, as said previously the original seance of was not this.
 
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Auntie Jee there is much that we can advise you about too so keep your advice to yourself ! :bunny:
Betaji I've noticed that advices whoosh over your head so I'd stopped giving u one long back. :lol:

Armstrong said:
Surely some of those sufficient intelligence reports would've coughed up an atom's worth of evidence....or maybe us Pakistanis have a separate underground city in GB which is impermeable to any intrusion & perfectly concealed where we keep Chinese Soldiers ! :o:
who knows what're these 're Chinese soldiers disguised as??
Pakistan lets a lot of nefarious activities happen on its land.
Lashkar-e-Taiba was termed a terrorist group by the UN in 2010.Harkatul Mujahideen was termed a terrorist group by the UNin 2011. And you let these organisations operate in your country.
China uses Pakistan's friendship for its benefits, the silk route is their aim. But in the wake of recent terrorist attacks in China not sure how long Pakistan will be able retain this friendship.



Armstrong said:
No I don't know her; why would I know a woman boxer from India ? :what:

I don't follow boxing ! :undecided:
We are proud of this Olympic medal winner.If you don't know shes mother of 3 kids.Lol.


Armstrong said:
By god's grace ? Kiyun aap key shakal mein kiya kharabi haiii ? :unsure:
Bass yehi that I resemble my brother. :lol:
 
my dear it was not just a 'mere' technicality as you suggest, but it reveal the actual understanding of Indian government of the situation and the situation on the ground in Kashmir during that time. (01 Jan 1948)

Indian Complaint to the Security Council, lst January 1948

For your Kind information these two different chapter of UN charter deals with different situations, clearly visible and understandable to everyone but not to Indians.

Chapter VI deals with 'Disputes' of any kind between states.

Indian Government by filling the complain against Pakistan under this chapter accepted Kashmir as a 'Disputed Territory' & denied to term local uprising of Kashmir as a threat to the Peace, breach of Peace or the act of Aggression which falls under the chapter VII.

Chapter VII deals with : ACTION WITH RESPECT TO THREATS TO THE PEACE, BREACHES OF THE PEACE, AND ACTS OF AGGRESSION

If the Kashmir upraising was an act of aggression by Pakistan and was a threat or a breach of peace of the region than

Why India did not file her complain under chapter VII ... ??

Why India accepted Pakistan as a Lawful & Equivalent party of the disputed under UN resolution .... ???

Why India didn't seek aggressive help of International community against Pakistan by filling the complain under chapter VII .... ??

My dear "Action Speak Louder then Word", now I request to please term it again a 'MERE' Technicality



Dear there is just a difference b/w the implementation of resolutions under both chapters, as Chapter 6 prefers and recommend the settlement of the dispute between the parties of the dispute peacefully under the recommendation of UN / SC.

While under chapter 7 UN / SC can take 'appropriate' action, technically speaking every resolution of UN is obligatory to all of its members, but differ is just in the degree of implementation; some are just moral obligation and other are binding.

I don't want to say but India by not implementing the UN resolution passed under Chapter 6 on its own request proving herself as an immoral state.
Resort to 'technicality' when it is convenient and dismiss it when inconvenient. Noted.
'Acts of aggression' are not 'disputes'. 'Dispute' is what Pakistan would call 'dispute'. Noted.

For those who are interested:

The Security Council may investigate any dispute, or any situation which might lead to international friction or give rise to a dispute, in order to determine whether the continuance of the dispute or situation is likely to endanger the maintenance of international peace and security. [Chap 6, Article 34(1)]

Any Member of the United Nations may bring any dispute, or any situation of the nature referred to in Article 34, to the attention of the Security Council or of the General Assembly. [Chap 6, Article 35(1)] (Link)​

Missing the wood for the trees. Noted.

Previous claim:
Not even Indian government termed Pakistan as the aggressor in UN, again I would ask you to support your claim with the official document, or I should consider it as another Indian myth regarding Kashmir.
Current claim:
Sarkar India changes its stance regarding Kashmir every now and then, its not something new.

India took this stance after the appointment of Sir Owen Dixon by UN as the mediator for India and Pakistan, as said previously the original seance of was not this.
Attempt to shift goal post. Noted.
Egg on face. Noted.

Also, the UN resolutions can be implemented by India only and only if Pakistan implements it first.

PS:Can you please drop this 'dear' thingie. It is irritating.
 
Betaji I've noticed that advices whoosh over your head so I'd stopped giving u one long back. :lol:

who knows what're these 're Chinese soldiers disguised as??
Pakistan lets a lot of nefarious activities happen on its land.
Lashkar-e-Taiba was termed a terrorist group by the UN in 2010.Harkatul Mujahideen was termed a terrorist group by the UNin 2011. And you let these organisations operate in your country.
China uses Pakistan's friendship for its benefits, the silk route is their aim. But in the wake of recent terrorist attacks in China not sure how long Pakistan will be able retain this friendship.

Who knows what these 'Chinese Soldiers (are) disguised as' ? :rofl:

Thats a new one ! :lol:

We are proud of this Olympic medal winner.If you don't know shes mother of 3 kids.Lol.

No I didn't know that shes mother to 3 kids; waisee phir aap ko koi sharam karniii chahiyee you're mother to 11 of them....if she could compete in Boxing at the highest level you could've at least groomed your kiddos for a 11 sided Cricket Team ! :disagree:

Bass yehi that I resemble my brother. :lol:

Chalo koi nahin no one's perfect......not everyone can be as Immaculate as Armstrong the Magnificent ! :smokin:
 
Oh so you holy highness are revealing that you have conducted objectives base analysis of all past adventures, based on that reached to this conclusion .... ???

plz share it here, it will be educating for all of ignorant people as till now we are thinking that except 71 all remain undecided ....

let me point out that you missed my point of third party mediation b/w India & Pakistan during all that situations but either you mistook it or that was a troll attempt

It is a national self-delusion that Pakistan has not lost all its military adventures with India. The whole world knows that it has - all of them- but as long as people like you believe otherwise, the national policy of self-delusion and self-destruction continues.
 
It is a national self-delusion that Pakistan has not lost all its military adventures with India. The whole world knows that it has - all of them- but as long as people like you believe otherwise, the national policy of self-delusion and self-destruction continues.

Sir jee, I would request you to plz put forward your 'complete analysis' upon which your awarding victory to one party , not just one liner like 'the whole world knowns this or that'

just on the basis this one vague sentence I should revisit my thoughts .... ???

my stance is very clear except 71 all war of India and Pakistan remain 'indecisive'. Please prove it wrong.
 
my stance is very clear except 71 all war of India and Pakistan remain 'indecisive'. Please prove it wrong.
All wars were started by Pakistan with the objective of wrest Kashmir from India. And still, you would need Indian visa to get there. That is the defeat.
 
Sir jee, I would request you to plz put forward your 'complete analysis' upon which your awarding victory to one party , not just one liner like 'the whole world knowns this or that'

just on the basis this one vague sentence I should revisit my thoughts .... ???

my stance is very clear except 71 all war of India and Pakistan remain 'indecisive'. Please prove it wrong.

Look at Pakistan's standing in the world right now and what it has actually achieved (not claims) and compare it with India's. You will get your answers.

More importantly, look at where Pakistan is going, and the rest will be clear too.
 
Resort to 'technicality' when it is convenient and dismiss it when inconvenient. Noted.

I have not objected at the usage of word 'technicality' but at your attitude of ignoring the the fact under the term of 'MERE TECHNICALITY'

In my previous have explained it in detail

'Acts of aggression' are not 'disputes'. 'Dispute' is what Pakistan would call 'dispute'. Noted.

No act of aggression could not be termed as as you are suggesting

Can you answer Why there are two different chapters (VI & VII) cover dispute and act of aggression separately in UN charter ?

What was the need to write two different chapters ?

most importantly if dispute is same as an act of aggression then Why India did not file its complain against Pakistan in 'chapter VII' ?

For those who are interested:

The Security Council may investigate any dispute, or any situation which might lead to international friction or give rise to a dispute, in order to determine whether the continuance of the dispute or situation is likely to endanger the maintenance of international peace and security. [Chap 6, Article 34(1)]

Any Member of the United Nations may bring any dispute, or any situation of the nature referred to in Article 34, to the attention of the Security Council or of the General Assembly. [Chap 6, Article 35(1)] (Link)​

Missing the wood for the trees. Noted.

For those who are interested please also read:

Article 37 (2) Chapter VI

2- If the Security Council deems that the continuance of the dispute is in fact likely to endanger the maintenance of international peace and security, it shall decide whether to take action under Article 36 or to recommend such terms of settlement as it may consider appropriate.

& Article 36 of the same chapter

1- The Security Council may, at any stage of a dispute of the nature referred to in Article 33 or of a situation of like nature, recommend appropriate procedures or methods of adjustment.

2- The Security Council should take into consideration any procedures for the settlement of the dispute which have already been adopted by the parties.

3- In making recommendations under this Article the Security Council should also take into consideration that legal disputes should as a general rule be referred by the parties to the International Court of Justice in accordance with the provisions of the Statute of the Court.

Previous claim:

Current claim:

Attempt to shift goal post. Noted.
Egg on face. Noted.

plz read the Indian complain against Pakistan in UN link was shared third time during our discussion.

Indian Complaint to the Security Council, 1st January 1948

and in 1951 when Sir Owen Dixon appointed as mediator India change her stance started to termed State of Pakistan as aggressor; ignoring the fact that Pakistan had no military mean and resources available to to launch any aggressive campaign against any of its neighbour. This change of stance lead to the failure of Sir Owen Dixon mission.

The Sydney Morning Herald - Google News Archive Search


Also, the UN resolutions can be implemented by India only and only if Pakistan implements it first.

I believe this is the first time Indian raise this question during debate every time they are replied that as per UN resolution Pakistan had already fulfilled initial responsibility regarding the withdrawal of Tribesmen from the Kashmir, then as suggested in UN resolution it was India's responsibility to brought down the number of troops to the minimum level, if I remember correctly you were also involved in one of that discussion.

92eed29ee63405fb3bd7d8b66afbc73c.jpg

2ceb0e5a5d0a763fdebacde4eb3a9cf1.jpg

responsibilities for which Pakistan agreed

9c1eedf1951c078055f616bd6d069379.jpg


official link from UN website: http://www.un.org/en/sc/repertoire/46-51/Chapter%208/46-51_08-16-The%20India-Pakistan%20question.pdf

PS:Can you please drop this 'dear' thingie. It is irritating.

ok noted dear .... :angel:

All wars were started by Pakistan with the objective of wrest Kashmir from India. And still, you would need Indian visa to get there. That is the defeat.

your interpretation .....

Look at Pakistan's standing in the world right now and what it has actually achieved (not claims) and compare it with India's. You will get your answers.

More importantly, look at where Pakistan is going, and the rest will be clear too.

Changing the discussion topic .... ???

If you cant share the burden of being Pakistani (oh I forget by origin only) then don't show your empathy
 
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Changing the discussion topic .... ???
If you cant share the burden of being Pakistani (oh I forget by origin only) then don't show your empathy

I am on topic, and completely fair and factual:

Kashmir is a bilateral issue whose only realistic outcomes between two nuclear armed foes is conversion of the LoC/AGPL into a recognized international border, or maintenance of the status quo at the great cost of ignoring social development. Everything else is mere political posturing, mainly for domestic consumption, that will go no where.
 
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