Talks for Su-35, Mi-35 sales to Pakistan are underway: Russian Deputy FM

[batmannow]

I don't think it will happen ever as my above post suggests

I may be wrong but that is what i feel!

Friend ,
Just hold back your horses , for a while , & let our ACM visits Russia , then come back & put a clean NO ?

 

[Arsalan]

Friend ,
Just hold back your horses , for a while , & let our ACM visits Russia , then come back & put a clean NO ?

Agreed! Just presenting my argument against the one that claims that Pakistan and Russia will be the next big thing in defense cooperation. Anyway, i agree lets wait and see.

 

[araz]

Agreed! Just presenting my argument against the one that claims that Pakistan and Russia will be the next big thing in defense cooperation. Anyway, i agree lets wait and see.

I think the thought is reasonable but I, like you think that SU 35 maybe a bridge too far and will only happen if the Russians are giving us serious and significant concessions like choice of our own radar /EW suite and ability to fire Chinese weapons from the plane(the radar comment is more in relation of ease of integration of other hardware/software than any criticism of the actual radar) The need is definitely there but whether it is for this platform or whether we induct more F16s and bide our time for J31(probably 2023-25 rather than the next 2-3 yrs which you seem to suggest) to come on line remains to be seen. However, one thing needs to be noted, the US can no longer afford to say NO to us as the loss of influence would be huge and strategically it would be a mistake. From Pakistan's perspective we have played down all the hallabulo and HOO Haa in the US news media and quietly presented our case which is a more mature way of doing so. This is a good sign and we should now start asserting our non alligned status by having good relations with Both Russia and USA.
Araz

 

[Arsalan]

I think the thought is reasonable but I, like you think that SU 35 maybe a bridge too far and will only happen if the Russians are giving us serious and significant concessions like choice of our own radar /EW suite and ability to fire Chinese weapons from the plane(the radar comment is more in relation of ease of integration of other hardware/software than any criticism of the actual radar) The need is definitely there but whether it is for this platform or whether we induct more F16s and bide our time for J31(probably 2023-25 rather than the next 2-3 yrs which you seem to suggest) to come on line remains to be seen. However, one thing needs to be noted, the US can no longer afford to say NO to us as the loss of influence would be huge and strategically it would be a mistake. From Pakistan's perspective we have played down all the hallabulo and HOO Haa in the US news media and quietly presented our case which is a more mature way of doing so. This is a good sign and we should now start asserting our non alligned status by having good relations with Both Russia and USA.
Araz

mmmm well sir i do not say that the J31 will be next two three years,, It will surely take much more time then this, i will support your view of 2023-2025 time frame. However, the thing is that we simply do not have enough funds to by a bot of all the machines out there. PAF is in love with F-16 and we cant do anything about it. Considering the changing geopolitical situation and alliances, i see US meeting that requirement, even if reluctantly!
The JF-17 project is PAF's new love affair (and i feel rightly so) so we will see improvements in that plane in next blocks.

Even all of this above leave us not that well equipped but coming back to finances, this is what best we may see. NO matter how much i believe in the need for a larger heavier twin engine fighter jet for PAF for air dominance,naval strike and deep strike roles i feel the odds are stacked against any Su35 deal, the odd of money, lure of F-16 and the development of JF-17!!

 

[Hurter]

Friend ,
Just hold back your horses , for a while , & let our ACM visits Russia , then come back & put a clean NO ?

And when is ACM visiting Russia?

 

[Muhammad Omar]

And when ACM is visiting Russia?

November

 

[araz]

Regarding the time frame I merely responded to your post #2735 which to me suggested that you are saying that J31 will mature in a couple of yrs. Rest I full agree with and I dare say it would be amazing to have the 35 in PAF cameo. Even I can dream cant I?
A

 

[Muhammad Omar]

Shared By @Sulman Badshah

 

[batmannow]

Agreed! Just presenting my argument against the one that claims that Pakistan and Russia will be the next big thing in defense cooperation. Anyway, i agree lets wait and see.

Geo-politics around Pakistan is changing fast , it won't be a wonder if Russia & Pakistan come closer in defence .

 

[araz]

Geo-politics around Pakistan is changing fast , it won't be a wonder if Russia & Pakistan come closer in defence .

Fair statement. The change is coming and strategic reallignment is happening. However the relations and trust will take time to establish and whereas the russians are showing a new enthusiasm we just need to ensure we dont land out of the frying pan into the fire. We will slowly buy a lot more but need to do so while furthering our own progress and ensuring some support against a future like one which we are facing with the US. I understand the Russians have never sanctioned anyone but it is nust a matter of establishi g trust.
A

 

[batmannow]

Fair statement. The change is coming and strategic reallignment is happening. However the relations and trust will take time to establish and whereas the russians are showing a new enthusiasm we just need to ensure we dont land out of the frying pan into the fire. We will slowly buy a lot more but need to do so while furthering our own progress and ensuring some support against a future like one which we are facing with the US. I understand the Russians have never sanctioned anyone but it is nust a matter of establishi g trust.
A

Friend ,
Just remember , NEED is the mother of every invention ?
Do Russia need Pakistan ?
Do Pakistan need Russia ?
More then ever before ?
Yessssssss ! Lolzz

 

[araz]

Friend ,
Just remember , NEED is the mother of every invention ?
Do Russia need Pakistan ?
Do Pakistan need Russia ?
More then ever before ?
Yessssssss ! Lolzz

The problem is Russia has a habit of leaving things in a lurch. There have been many instances even though they have not embargoed nations. Iran comes to mind. That and the situation regarxing a steady supply od sparws maybe two issues that might need to be resolved.
A

 

[Arsalan]

Geo-politics around Pakistan is changing fast , it won't be a wonder if Russia & Pakistan come closer in defence .

Yes they are,, but not to an extent where i can see Russia dumping India and forming a new alliance with Pakistan. The way forward is actually in non-alliance policy, we need to be neutral in most of the aspects. Good relation all around is the keep to progress. SO YES, while Russian-Pakistan relations are improving and will keep on improving given the current Geo-political situation, it is not going to get to a point where Russia and Pakistan will become allies against the west as some people like to claim, neither it will be Russia-Pakistan relation at the cost of Russia-India relations, they cannot afford that, STILL, WE WILL GET CLOSER GIVEN THE NEW FOUND LOVE BETWEEN INDIAN AND US,, CLOSER I SAY, NOT CLOSEST! this is not going to happen.

 

[araz]

Yes they are,, but not to an extent where i can see Russia dumping India and forming a new alliance with Pakistan. The way forward is actually in non-alliance policy, we need to be neutral in most of the aspects. Good relation all around is the keep to progress. SO YES, while Russian-Pakistan relations are improving and will keep on improving given the current Geo-political situation, it is not going to get to a point where Russia and Pakistan will become allies against the west as some people like to claim, neither it will be Russia-Pakistan relation at the cost of Russia-India relations, they cannot afford that, STILL, WE WILL GET CLOSER GIVEN THE NEW FOUND LOVE BETWEEN INDIAN AND US,, CLOSER I SAY, NOT CLOSEST! this is not going to happen.

I don't think Russia is going to dump India. In modern age of sales everyone sells to everyone. US is selling to India and Pakistan why cant Russia do the same.I fully agree with you on the policy of non alliance in a world of polarization. However one needs to have mature and articulate politicians for that and you don't have them. I do however think regional interests will drive Pakistan closer to Russia albeit slowly and this would be good for Pakistan as a bit of direct interaction taking out middlemen would save us a few bucks.
A

 

[Arsalan]

Regarding the time frame I merely responded to your post #2735 which to me suggested that you are saying that J31 will mature in a couple of yrs. Rest I full agree with and I dare say it would be amazing to have the 35 in PAF cameo. Even I can dream cant I?

A

Oo yeah i read that,, i wrote "Couple of years" and that was wrong, it is wrong

I feel it will take some 5 to 7 years to get this flying in PAF. The Chinese are working on the plane, once they have made it capable enough and mature enough PAF (if interested to buy which it seems they will be) will also be giving some technical inputs and then some modifications/up gradations as per our requirement. Only after that we may see J-31 in PAF.


Till that time, i feel that it will be the F-16 (as PAF have shown again that they still totally believe in this plane and are always ready to buy a few more) and JF-17 future blocks. Ideally i will like, in fact love to see some of the underdevelopment systems of J31 being incorporated into future JF17 blocks in this time. This will deliver a much more potent 4.5 generation fighter an thus we can afford to wait for these 5 to 7 years for a proper 5th generation. Not only that but it will surely take JF-17 to a next level. Things like RAM coating, better AESA radar, IRST and avionics. Yes i understand that will make the plane expensive but remember that these we will be inducting as a 4.5+ generation platform and not the 4th generation we are producing currently AND will actually practically help us keep our air force on par for the time till be start getting fifth generation plane.