Taliban warn of reprisal if PML-N govt hangs militants

[RescueRanger]

Shall we declare , all Pakistani terrorists or terrorists sympathizer then , mate ? I do not understand what follows next - Islam is a terrorist religion ?

Aziz Ansari in Observe and Report Chick-fil-A Scene - YouTube

Shall we declare , all Pakistani terrorists or terrorists sympathizer then , mate ? I do not understand what follows next - Islam is a terrorist religion ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kJ8quYNFQE

 

[Secur]

Basically what needs to happen is that there needs to be a mass movement against terrorism and its toxic ideology. Why is terrorism thriving in Pakistan? Because the people allow it to thrive. When the majority want a change, the change will happen (an example is the movement towards "democracy" in the Musharraf era). As of right now people are either too scared, too indifferent, or may even support these extremist groups (a combination of all three is probably the case) which is why no one is doing anything.

The leaders in Pakistan confuse the masses by not outrightly saying that these terrorists are out enemies. They're too busy making excuses for their actions.

Until the ideology and basic thinking of the people don't change, you won't see terrorism go away any time soon. How to change the mindset of millions of people who have been indoctrinated with this ideology all their life? I wish I knew the answer to that

I wish I could refute you . This is again , just a wish , just a dream , nothing that is happening on the ground . Yes , there is a thriving environment created and encouraged by the same people . I am even not sure if that majority , I always speak of , even ' exists ' , my friend Musharraf was right to use the ' stick ' to discipline this nation and give them the ' Pakistan first ' and ' Enlightened Moderation ' doctrines . Did we value him ? We wanted democracy , now we have got it and we are seeing , what wonders it is doing at the moment . It seems like , because the situation is of chaos and anarchy , you cant expect people to think better and positively .

Precisely . Define the enemy first , before fighting it . When you yourself declare them ' martyrs ' , ' saviors ' and ' angry brothers on the mountain ' , what hope is the nation left with ? You know , ideologies takes a very long duration of time to sink in but when they do , they are extremely hard to uproot .

 

[muse]

Shall we declare , all Pakistani terrorists or terrorists sympathizer then , mate ? I do not understand what follows next - Islam is a terrorist religion ?

Excllent - What we do have t do is acknowledge that there is a great support base for islamist terrorism within Pakistan and among Pakistanis - Wouldn't that help us instead of having us poor misunderstood victims?

You have to realize that it's not just Pakistanis thinking this, the whole world is thinking this and you agree that they are not wrong to do so

Seems to me that in last few months there has been a sea change at Defense.pk - instead of being honest, those who should be honest refuse to do so, and instead imagine they can hide - @RescueRanger says he can't tell the good guys from the bad guys, and @Oscar simply refuses to deal with the subject

You ask, in desperation, what shall we do - lets be truthful about the problem and scale of the problem -- you say maybe there is no silent majority - why not build on that truth till we get to tipping point

Too much pain? You bet, is there any other way, something that avoids the pain? No! The pain is the teacher

 

[RescueRanger]

@RescueRanger says he can't tell the good guys from the bad guys

Pray tell where i said anything of the sort? In fact you know what.... Yeah you know what Muse, yeah your right. Pakistan is full of terrorist scum, and in fact all Muslims are terrorists. We are sorry we cannot live up to your expectations of what moderate human beings should be....

Heck why am i spending my hard earned income on my children education, i should just buy them an AK each, would be a lot bloody cheaper. Oh and another thing, if i drink alcohol i am an alcoholic, but if i drink Fanta, does that mean im fantastic....? It's all subjective brother, it's all subjective.

In closing here i a little gift from me to you:

 

[SQ8]

@Oscar -- Would Islamist terror thrive as it does in Pakistan without a nurturing environment?

So it seems a necessary condition for the thriving of islamist terror is the presence of large numbers of Muslims, would you agree?

I agree to quite an extent but with a slight(even if largely academic and inconsequential) addition.
There is a large support(or fear due to lack of knowledge) within the Pakistani population for ideologies that form the core basis for terror groups. How large is that support? It used to be 10-15% before Zia, it is now close to 50%(but not evenly distributed). let me elaborate on that by looking at a particular section of Pakistan.

You will find a large section of Muslims in Sindh and to an extent lower Punjab visiting the various Shrines of Saints. I will not indulge(nor tolerate) a derailing discussion on the underlying theological debate on the ideology(ies) that those people follow. But it is less likely that those people will be prone to blowing themselves up on other Muslims.since their interpretations of matters are less archaic and rigid than others. These people will and do disagree with other ideologies, sects etc. but are less likely to turn violent(unless provoked) on the others. Their religious leadership is however, most likely of the opinion that the western influence in the region is the cause for our problems.It must be said that there is NO evidence to suggest(at least to my knowledge) that these ideologies are funded by any other means than through their own adherents and mostly locally. However, they are more than likely to side with the state's stand as more of a hobsons Choice than anything else which I will explain next why

In the same region, there are also other ideologies that exist but shun these practices(whether right or wrong is not part of this debate and is not part of the discussion.. in which I hope @muse will agree with me). Their religious leadership actively preaches hatred against all other ideologies that disagree with them and more often than not preach a cessation of the activities of the other ideologies without overtly specifying limits to any actions that are to be carried out in this ideology war. These ideologies also are antagonist of the west's influence but unlike the former had much higher specified limits by their religious leadership nor in their idealogical teachings on what actions are acceptable and what are not. Again, within these group of ideologies are also milder versions but the general tendency is to provoke violence as a means to an end. These ideologies I refer to, are a collective of existing rigid interpretations and those imported and promoted from abroad. The promotion also includes certain nudges and indoctrinations to act against a particular sect ;sections of whom are financed by our neighbour to the west in their preaching activities and to act as a counter to the influence of the former mentioned ideologies that are imports from date-land.

Our military is divided in the ideologies that are promoted within it depending upon the most vocal at the time and the adherents present in the officer corps. So if one set of ideologies is prevalent in rank and file , then their flavour is generally pushed and preached within the ranks. However, there are internal checks and balances within the officer corps due to the diversity(due to existing military families and their adhering to milder interpretations) that were/are keeping check on the spread of particular ideals that are more explosive. That being said, anomalies like Zia ensure that this balance is disturbed and it has been.

Prior to 2001, and you are aware of this. There were increasing sectarian clashes most prevalent in larger cities. These were due to middle eastern states(please do not ASK me their names since i ran from this question elsewhere) playing out their idealogical proxy wars on our backyard(and not our eastern neighbour as we were all led to believe, since they realized the potential of this powderkeg rather late into the game). These clashes were fought from the majority sect's side by the same gentlemen that our state needed to bleed our eastern neighbour(as they did) in Kashmir. Again, you do have an idea of that history.

Today, however.. due to the rather ill planned, ill-negotiated, ill-fought and ill-advertised war on terror that we have had to bear both willingly and unwillingly, through fault of our own and not.. the number of people in padre positions within those more halwa-puri ideologies whose preaching of hatred was pre-existent have removed all limits due to both idealogical and financial factors. These in turn DO translate to a support by their flocks(which collectively were always large) for extreme activities even if they do not partake in those themselves(for a variety of personal, financial and gut based reasons).

No, Terror does not require a huge petri dish or billions of hosts to be successful. Like cancer, it can thrive easily within a few and the homegrown extremist from within the US and UK shows that even a small acerbic and acidic minority within a minority of Muslims is enough to turn extremist. All you need is one spore(preacher).
Another new addition to the spread of breeding is the internet. Its nature has allowed the spread of damaging and corruptive ideals much faster and with less investment(no preachers needed) and with much more tendency to mutate and turn even more dangerous and viral.

 

[Dance]

I wish I could refute you . This is again , just a wish , just a dream , nothing that is happening on the ground . Yes , there is a thriving environment created and encouraged by the same people . I am even not sure if that majority , I always speak of , even ' exists ' , my friend Musharraf was right to use the ' stick ' to discipline this nation and give them the ' Pakistan first ' and ' Enlightened Moderation ' doctrines . Did we value him ? We wanted democracy , now we have got it and we are seeing , what wonders it is doing at the moment . It seems like , because the situation is of chaos and anarchy , you cant expect people to think better and positively .

Precisely . Define the enemy first , before fighting it . When you yourself declare them ' martyrs ' , ' saviors ' and ' angry brothers on the mountain ' , what hope is the nation left with ? You know , ideologies takes a very long duration of time to sink in but when they do , they are extremely hard to uproot .

The only way democracy is successful is when you have an educated population who can elect educated leaders ideally on merit. A little more than half of Pakistan is literate plus people rather vote on ethnic/religious beliefs rather than merit.

Musharraf was right in his pursuit, unfortunately Pakistan did not appreciate him and now they are paying big time.

Yes ideology is very hard to uproot, but not impossible. If countries can end genocides and get rid of their hateful ideology, so can Pakistan-but only if it is willing too.

I have a bad feeling that we're in for a long and bloody ride. It took Sri Lanka 25 years to end their insurgency.

 

[muse]

I can't speak for Oscar, i can speak for myself and i said my piece. As for what the world thinks, i lol at that, last i checked the world is not putting bread on my dinner table or petrol in the tank of my car... As for anti Muslim and Anti Pakistani, i am no one to make that distinction, i would struggle to think who could be qualified to be able to pass such judgement.

So you can't tell whether a suicide bomber is anti Muslim or anti Pakistan? You can't Talib is a good guy or a bad guy or lej is a good guy or a bad guy?

and then this gem of victim hood:

Pray tell where i said anything of the sort? In fact you know what.... Yeah you know what Muse, yeah your right. Pakistan is full of terrorist scum, and in fact all Muslims are terrorists.

Isn't that your own post, in your own words??

 

[SQ8]

If yes, why then take offense when the rest of the world thinks so as well? Why be defensive when you guys know the truth all too well - Why make it about the evil West being anti Muslim, when you of all people, know better than most all people, exactly who it is that is anti Muslim, and anti Pakistan?

Evil muse deriding and ridiculing poor misunderstood, suicide bomber glorifying, murdering co religionists at the drop of a hat Muslims?

Here is the reasoning behind that.. read my posts. Your approach in joining the west in branding all and sundry without identifying and nurturing an antidote to the problem will further alienate those that have greater potential to reject the cancer.

Think of a tuberculosis patient. Do you ridicule him constantly? Tell him his whole body is now diseased and that he is a lost cause? or do you tell him where the problem is, identify the activity that is dangerous(smoking for eg) and make him stop it. Perhaps saving his life and eradicating the disease?

Ill let the rest be the judge of whether my approach is better or all out bashing.

 

[RescueRanger]

So you can't tell whether a suicide bomber is anti Muslim or anti Pakistan? You can't Talib is a good guy or a bad guy or lej is a good guy or a bad guy?

and then this gem of victim hood:



Isn't that your own post, in your own words??

Your out there mate, way out there... Like i said you have a mental picture of people on this forum, good for you. I am having no sleepless nights, so say what you will. My opinion on taliban is clear, my opinion on suicide bombers is clear, anyone who takes life is punishable by according to the state law, in a court of law.

Now enough of this, because i have come to the conclusion that no matter what i say, you wish to drag this debate into a quagmire of he said she said nonsense. Anyways, believe what you will brother, it bothers me not. If you feel i have said anything that equals me supporting hardline policies or restricting peoples freedoms or supporting terrorism then my friend share it with us or else please as people say in London "Leave it out love".

 

[muse]

Yes ideology is very hard to uproot, but not impossible. If countries can end genocides and get rid of their hateful ideology, so can Pakistan-but only if it is willing too.

I have a bad feeling that we're in for a long and bloody ride. It took Sri Lanka 25 years to end their insurgency.

How do you get to the willing part? How does someone who refuses to acknowledge that they are sick, ever get better??

We've just got to get over being Defensive about being Muslim -- truth is that talib and leJ they are inspired by islam, that suicide bomber shouting Allahu Akbar before he kills is also inspired by Islam

And all those repulsed by such behavior are also inspired by Islam

Unless we can be clear about the good guys and the bad guys and WHY they are good guys and WHY they are bad guys, we can be sure that we will bleed such that whatever is left of Islam after wards, will find few takers - is that what those of us who want to play osterich or defensive really want?

 

[SQ8]

To break their ideology is easier than you think, we need rehabilitation camps set up everywhere in tribal belt to begin teaching these people of what really is the world situation.

That would have worked fine in 2007. The Saudi's did so because they knew the origins and genetics of the problem well. Hence their local terror threat was countered easily.

 

[Secur]

Excllent - What we do have t do is acknowledge that there is a great support base for islamist terrorism within Pakistan and among Pakistanis - Wouldn't that help us instead of having us poor misunderstood victims?

You have to realize that it's not just Pakistanis thinking this, the whole world is thinking this and you agree that they are not wrong to do so

Seems to me that in last few months there has been a sea change at Defense.pk - instead of being honest, those who should be honest refuse to do so, and instead imagine they can hide - @RescueRanger says he can't tell the good guys from the bad guys, and @Oscar simply refuses to deal with the subject

You ask, in desperation, what shall we do - lets be truthful about the problem and scale of the problem -- you say maybe there is no silent majority - why not build on that truth till we get to tipping point

Too much pain? You bet, is there any other way, something that avoids the pain? No! The pain is the teacher

You made a mistake here . The thing is that you could have put your points , asked your questions and given your opinions straight away . Why assume this and that on behalf of others and take a hazy approach , mate ? Why so vague ? I dont see anybody , denying that there is no support base for the terrorists/extremists . But what to do of the fact , that a great deal of that support if coming from the misunderstanding , chaos and anarchy present due to the situation , people thinking Taliban are right because they wear Islamic attire ( the assumed one ) and keep a beard ? I talked of the donations and yearly Zakat , people aren't being told that they go , to kill their same brethren but that it will used for Madarsa Graduates , poor , needy and whatever the classes eligible for receiving that money ( Actually , results of breeding like rabbits who then their parents cant feed or teach or make them good citizens and hand them to the God's viceroy ) . The enemy of Pakistanis hides under the umbrella of the religion . Why cant you understand that ? Are we not fighting a war for the same world too ? Haven't we sacrificed more than them ? I can understand why the opinions about Pakistan have developed , but the problem isn't as simple .

Not really , this is called ' cautiousness ' on the matter because after all , its our own misguided nation , we are talking about . What if we start to criticize and blame them , so that it becomes criticism for the sake of it ? What the hell good do you think , is that gonna do ? What sideline those , who have a chance of recovery and can fight this ideology ? Trust me , today , we are more honest and truthful than we used to be , in the past ( at least some of them who were reluctant before ) . Yes , maybe .

 

[RescueRanger]

Any who...Coming back to topic, everyone remember this old chessnut doing the rounds in 2011:

 

[muse]

Ill let the rest be the judge of whether my approach is better or all out bashing.

But won't answer the question put to you

 

[Secur]

The only way democracy is successful is when you have an educated population who can elect educated leaders ideally on merit. A little more than half of Pakistan is literate plus people rather vote on ethnic/religious beliefs rather than merit.

Musharraf was right in his pursuit, unfortunately Pakistan did not appreciate him and now they are paying big time.

Yes ideology is very hard to uproot, but not impossible. If countries can end genocides and get rid of their hateful ideology, so can Pakistan-but only if it is willing too.

I have a bad feeling that we're in for a long and bloody ride. It took Sri Lanka 25 years to end their insurgency.

Indeed , what hope is there when you have a feudal/tribal leader or at times even a Mullah telling the poor and illiterate whom to vote and select the next Govt ? There is no merit , it is quite simple .

He's gone , well . Pakistan will continue to pay for the foreseeable future , let there be no doubt .

Hope is Eternal ? Yes , it is .