T-LORAMIDS Tender | Updates & Discussion

[atatwolf]

So much of your cheap comment. By insulting the Turkish top level people for opting HQ-9, you are also insulting the judgement of Turkish people who choose this leadership. Only few words can describe you, is jealousy that cloud your judgement of China.

Actually if you had the attention level and read my post until the very end, I said Turkey made the right choice. Turkey doesn't have immediate threat. Russia can't even deal with Chechens, US or Europe won't have guts to double cross us, Greece/Armenia/other gutter states have been neutralized. So that is why I said it was good Turkey didn't go for top-self but for cheaper but possibility to upgrade and develop own system.

 

[Beast]

Actually if you had the attention level and read my post until the very end, I said Turkey made the right choice. Turkey doesn't have immediate threat. Russia can't even deal with Chechens, US or Europe won't have guts to double cross us, Greece/Armenia/other gutter states have been neutralized. So that is why I said it was good Turkey didn't go for top-self but for cheaper but possibility to upgrade and develop own system.

That is not my point. If you think Europe has not guts to double cross Turkey plus the fact, Turkey is heavily NATO wired for its defense. Easy choice will be Aster 30 with ease of intergration and the so called superior performance which you claimed. But not, Turkey didn't opt that. It opt for HQ-9. Money will not be a problem as Turkey is not a poor country with limited budget. So much of your cheap logic.

Besides superior performance, I cannot think of better reason Turkey military will opt for this hard choice of HQ-9.

 

[Beast]

I think they are too dumb founded to make any comment by Turkish decision that they need to go and re evaluate their so called superior weapon.

 

[flamer84]

That is not my point. If you think Europe has not guts to double cross Turkey plus the fact, Turkey is heavily NATO wired for its defense. Easy choice will be Aster 30 with ease of intergration and the so called superior performance which you claimed. But not, Turkey didn't opt that. It opt for HQ-9. Money will not be a problem as Turkey is not a poor country with limited budget. So much of your cheap logic.

Besides superior performance, I cannot think of better reason Turkey military will opt for this hard choice of HQ-9.

You're such a child
There is ful ToT and there is full Tot,for example Dassault is giving India full ToT for Rafale,more exactly full tehnology to built 108 Rafales in India,that doesn't mean India will be a Rafale producer to sell as its own.Turkey might want a technology start to produce something and then even sell it as its own without strings attached and the chinese gave them that.The europeans might not have offered the same thing,for example Saab produces the Gripen but relies on american engines,Turkey could have wanted to avoid that situation with the Aster maybe.

My bet is that we are going to see a whole lot of modifications in the future with the final defence shield for Turkey beeing somewhat different than the HQ 9.But mine are just guesses only you can be so immature on stating facts on "logical assumptions" on such a complex issue without having any technical data.

 

[ozi2000]

@Beast

What the article says is MBDA offered ToT as well. But it does not say HQ-9 better. If you seen Janes comment today as follows
actually Eurosam regarded better.

"""""""""Nick de Larrinaga, Europe Editor of IHS Jane's Defense Weekly, said the Chinese bid was long understood to have 'massively undercut other bidders'. He said Western competitors were also offering wide involvement for Turkish industry.

"The decision...is undoubtedly a surprise," he said.

"Meanwhile IHS Jane's understood that the Franco/Italian Eurosam SAMP/T was preferred by many in the Turkish Armed Forces from a capability point of view...although it was also believed to be the most expensive of all the bids."""""""""""""""""


But it does not mean FD-2000 is bad. The well-known web site Air Power Australia - Home Page gives great details of the system and finishes up the writing with interesting comment.

"""""""""""""Western bureaucrats continue to show absolute disdain for Chinese built air defence weapons. While in the short term, ignorance might be bliss, the pain will be felt acutely if several dozen US combat aircraft are shot down by modern HQ-9s in some remote corner of the world, by a country the US considers to be incapable of such a defence. """"""""""""""
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-061209-1.html
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-HQ-9-12-Battery-Radars.html


So in conclusion, In general Chinese offer combined both price and tot advantage to win. But Personally believe that there is more in it.

Everyone said Turkey using China to get others reduce the price but in fact exactly the other way around. China wanted so much to make its first sale especially to a reputable buyer like Turkey and made great concessions I believe.


"""""""One senior procurement official familiar with the program said the Turkish government has concluded that the Chinese proposal was technologically satisfactory, allowed technology transfer and was much cheaper than rival proposals."""""""
Turkey May Adopt Chinese Air Defense System | Defense News | defensenews.com


Turkey wanted 3 thing 1-technologically satisfactory 2- tot + co-development 3-cheaper Chinas offer combined the best simple is that

 

[Jguo]

Five million Turks live in Germany,alot of Pakistans live in UK,alot of Arabs live in France....Europa has long time ago rejected prejudice.
Turkey will become EU member when Europa needs a new strong economy to stabilze EU.

As someone who has lived here for over a decade and has many close friends and family of the nationalities you mentioned living in the EU (UK/Germany/France) from both sides, i.e. Indian/Pakistani, British/German, I can tell you that your point of view on the EU is wrong.

The consensus by the international community in the EU is that prejudice is on the rise, especially in current economic climates. Whether you're a just a street cleaner or a university professor, prejudice is apparent in some form or another. Even me and my colleagues who work in the financial sector (which is very internationalized) see the different between attitudes inside and outside the EU, the environment here in the EU is much worse than other western nations such as the US, it is precisely because there is 'too many of "us"' that the EU does not want anymore in. You see this shift in political attitudes as well as immigration policies.

Anyway this is a little OT, just thought I'd give you some insight.

 

[Beast]

@Beast

What the article says is MBDA offered ToT as well. But it does not say HQ-9 better. If you seen Janes comment today as follows
actually Eurosam regarded better.

"""""""""Nick de Larrinaga, Europe Editor of IHS Jane's Defense Weekly, said the Chinese bid was long understood to have 'massively undercut other bidders'. He said Western competitors were also offering wide involvement for Turkish industry.

"The decision...is undoubtedly a surprise," he said.

"Meanwhile IHS Jane's understood that the Franco/Italian Eurosam SAMP/T was preferred by many in the Turkish Armed Forces from a capability point of view...although it was also believed to be the most expensive of all the bids."""""""""""""""""


But it does not mean FD-2000 is bad. The well-known web site Air Power Australia - Home Page gives great details of the system and finishes up the writing with interesting comment.

"""""""""""""Western bureaucrats continue to show absolute disdain for Chinese built air defence weapons. While in the short term, ignorance might be bliss, the pain will be felt acutely if several dozen US combat aircraft are shot down by modern HQ-9s in some remote corner of the world, by a country the US considers to be incapable of such a defence. """"""""""""""
FD-2000 / HQ-9 SAM - China's Strategic ‘Game Changer’
HQ-9 and HQ-12 SAM System Battery Radars


So in conclusion, In general Chinese offer combined both price and tot advantage to win. But Personally believe that there is more in it.

Everyone said Turkey using China to get others reduce the price but in fact exactly the other way around. China wanted so much to make its first sale especially to a reputable buyer like Turkey and made great concessions I believe.


"""""""One senior procurement official familiar with the program said the Turkish government has concluded that the Chinese proposal was technologically satisfactory, allowed technology transfer and was much cheaper than rival proposals."""""""
Turkey May Adopt Chinese Air Defense System | Defense News | defensenews.com

ozi2000, all this article miss out one point. How would HQ-9 intergrate with Turkish NATO defense based network? I doubt price is the main factor. If you factor in the fact, it might be more time consuming and even more effort and money to intergrate HQ-9 into Turkish NATO based system rather than just go the easy route of getting a NATO based Aster 30 system. Yes, it might be more costly to acquire but ease of integrating will reduce further cost and increase Turkish defense operation efffectiveness faster compare to HQ-9.

But Turkish top level people still decide to opt for HQ-9. Think about it! Most of these western article will write western favour info without real solid facts. And most of the info they quote from Turkish personnel never included name. It cannot be verify.

Clearly, Turkish government see some great merit from HQ-9 besides money and ToT compare to Aster 30 that they can ignore the time , cost and difficuties of intergrating to their existing network.

 

[ajkhan7]

In my humble opinion Turkey shd go for Chinese or Russian Equipment with tech transfer agreements... American and Europeans are most un-reliable people and coutries.... they might have best quality butwill be useless without later spares and equipment or upgrades.

The history speaks for itself what an Ally USA and Europe has been to most. They have proven to be worst friends for any ally.

Last but not the least Turkey has the technology, and people ... self reliance is the key. By buying others equipment u r just funding R&D of the seller.

 

[Beast]

You're such a child
There is ful ToT and there is full Tot,for example Dassault is giving India full ToT for Rafale,more exactly full tehnology to built 108 Rafales in India,that doesn't mean India will be a Rafale producer to sell as its own.Turkey might want a technology start to produce something and then even sell it as its own without strings attached and the chinese gave them that.The europeans might not have offered the same thing,for example Saab produces the Gripen but relies on american engines,Turkey could have wanted to avoid that situation with the Aster maybe.

My bet is that we are going to see a whole lot of modifications in the future with the final defence shield for Turkey beeing somewhat different than the HQ 9.But mine are just guesses only you can be so immature on stating facts on "logical assumptions" on such a complex issue without having any technical data.

Isn't your explanation is based on assumption too? Clealry ozi2000 article mention MDBA agrees ToT and yet you come to conclusive that China ToT is more compare to Aster 30. Where is the hard fact?

China HQ-9 system being better and wins the bid infuriated you, isn't it? Who's the child and immature smart alec here?

 

[flamer84]

Isn't your explanation is based on assumption too? Clealry ozi2000 article mention MDBA agrees ToT and yet you come to conclusive that China ToT is more compare to Aster 30. Where is the hard fact?

China HQ-9 system being better and wins the bid infuriated you, isn't it? Who's the child and immature smart alec here?

Oh brother ....Yes i'm fumegating because i'm the owner of MBDA and now i'm 4 billion $ short.

My bet is that we are going to see a whole lot of modifications in the future with the final defence shield for Turkey beeing somewhat different than the HQ 9.But mine are just guesses only you can be so immature on stating facts on "logical assumptions" on such a complex issue without having any technical data.

 

[Safriz]

This is an article from 2010

As part of plans to bridge a gap in its air defences, Turkey is to acquire low-altitude air-defence missiles to protect TLFC (Turkish Land Forces Command) bases, as well as for the point defence of deployed units. Plans cover the procurement of 45 (with an option for a further 45) low-altitude air-defence missile systems (T-LALADMIS) for the TLFC and 12 systems for the Turkish Naval Forces Command (TNFC). A towed low-altitude missile defence system will be developed by Turkish corporation Roketsan Missile Industries as part of the T-LALADMIS project.

Turkeywill also acquire a medium-altitude air-defence system (T-MALADMIS) that will cover airborne strike fighter threats over a wider area and has extended the deadline for companies to enter submissions for its long-range air-and missile-defence systems (T-LORAMIDS) acquisition project. Russian and European consortiums are expected to prepare fresh bids.

The Turkish military has put the price of its tender relating to the acquisition of T-LORAMIDS at US$1 billion, covering the purchase of four batteries in total. A selection may be made later in 2010, with a contract being signed in the second quarter of 2011. Delivery of the systems would be required 2.5 years after contract signature.

However, Turkey has reportedly confirmed its interest in a potential US$7.8 billion purchase of Patriot missiles and is seeking the Pentagon’s approval for US participation in a contest to acquire such a system. It would potentially cover 13 Patriot ‘fire units’, 72 Patriot Advanced Capability-3 missiles and a range of associated hardware for ground-based air defence.

It shows all the Air defence procurements Turkey wanted to do.....Now we learn Turkey has selected HQ-9 for their T-LORAMIDS.
Previously Turkey was interested in Ratheon's RIM-156A and had Plans to Build VLS on their FD-2000 Frigates.
Havelsan, was provided some source codes to integrate the Missile into their GENESIS C4I system. But the ToT for missile was never offered..The missile was to be Produced by Raytheon and sold to Turkey. The trail of RIM-156A went cold and no news is available if Turkey is integrating the Missile on their FD-2000 Frigates or not (Unless some Turkish member come up with a news?).
Raytheon and HAVELSAN Partner for FFG 7 Fleet Modernization With GENESIS Program - Apr 28, 2009
Raytheon and Havelsan later reached an agreement on Co-producing GENESIS command and control system for Navy ships and Together they Integrated the system on Turkish/USA FFG-7 Oliver class Frigates,and later marketed the system to Pakistan Navy and Egypt (I dont know if integrated in F-22P or not? @fatman17 any news?).

It is plausible that HQ-9 will be integrated on FD-2000 on the ship's VLS. The system has similar Flight characteristics as Raytheon's RM-156,only at a lower cost and with much more ToT,as Chinese almost always do.

The only Problem here is that Turkish GENESIS Ship Integrated Combat Management System has a fire control system from Raytheon and that wont let a chinese system to be integrated...
From the looks of it Turkey is already doing R&D for their own Shipboard Fire control system . They already have VATOS Mk-II for Torpedo,and may be they will improve upon it or develop some other for integration into their GENESIS system and integrate HQ-9 (My speculation).

From the looks of it HQ-9 is far more adapted for VLS as its cold launch system unlike RIM-156 and Aegis,both being Hot launch systems and therefore VLS design is complicated...

 

[Beast]

Oh brother ....Yes i'm fumegating because i'm the owner of MBDA and now i'm 4 billion $ short.

Oh, ok! I dont insist HQ-9 is superior. I think HQ-9 is superior? Is that ok?

This is an article from 2010



It shows all the Air defence procurements Turkey wanted to do.....Now we learn Turkey has selected HQ-9 for their T-LORAMIDS.
Previously Turkey was interested in Ratheon's RIM-156A and had Plans to Build VLS on their FD-2000 Frigates.
Havelsan, was provided some source codes to integrate the Missile into their GENESIS C4I system. But the ToT for missile was never offered..The missile was to be Produced by Raytheon and sold to Turkey. The trail of RIM-156A went cold and no news is available if Turkey is integrating the Missile on their FD-2000 Frigates or not (Unless some Turkish member come up with a news?).
Raytheon and HAVELSAN Partner for FFG 7 Fleet Modernization With GENESIS Program - Apr 28, 2009
Raytheon and Havelsan later reached an agreement on Co-producing GENESIS command and control system for Navy ships and Together they Integrated the system on Turkish/USA FFG-7 Oliver class Frigates,and later marketed the system to Pakistan Navy and Egypt (I dont know if integrated in F-22P or not? @fatman17 any news?).

It is plausible that HQ-9 will be integrated on FD-2000 on the ship's VLS. The system has similar Flight characteristics as Raytheon's RM-156,only at a lower cost and with much more ToT,as Chinese almost always do.

The only Problem here is that Turkish GENESIS Ship Integrated Combat Management System has a fire control system from Raytheon and that wont let a chinese system to be integrated...
From the looks of it Turkey is already doing R&D for their own Shipboard Fire control system . They already have VATOS Mk-II for Torpedo,and may be they will improve upon it or develop some other for integration into their GENESIS system and integrate HQ-9 (My speculation).

From the looks of it HQ-9 is far more adapted for VLS as its cold launch system unlike RIM-156 and Aegis,both being Hot launch systems and therefore VLS design is complicated...

How do you leave out Aster 30 if you think ToT is the main problem? Best of all Aster 30 is also a Naval based VLS which shall have easy intergration into Turkish existing naval program.

 

[Saithan]

My patience has really been tested, while I tried to read through all the comments, but I end up with same conclusion.

1. People assume alot
2. People make up fairy tales inside their head
3. People insult each other even more than the two above mentioned

Turkey has been using western arms for a long time, changing all that would set us back decades. I believe that the choice of HQ-9 is interesting and like Cabatli said, it's not without a purpose. But the choice is not based on how good HQ-9 is. It's been said before and I'll repeat it for people who doesn't know, The turkish government values TOT more than the actual products, because there is a belief in Turkey that with knowledge, dedication and time, we can surpass what we've been offered. Possibly even compete globally with our products.

Atawolf pointed out about T-129 and how it was modified to suit our needs, so I think it's worth considering that he might not be wrong. We did buy a stand alone system after all.

Politically it's going to be interesting. The trouble in Syria, and possible missile attack on Turkey would be faced with the PAC-3 and HQ-9 system, and if one of them fails it's going to be a massive blow to either PAC-3 or HQ-9. HQ-9 is even more exposed because it'll be a Chinese/US system that failed to protect Turkey against missile attack.

Of course that's only if we're attacked, but think about it. I know our Pakistani brothers are quite fond of the Chinese because of the relations they have (since india has the US), but what would Pakistan think if the HQ-9 failed.

I think people should stop coming up with their speculations and stick to the facts. Failing that, just wait and see what's going to happen, it's quite interesting

 

[flamer84]

Oh, ok! I dont insist HQ-9 is superior. I think HQ-9 is superior? Is that ok?

Ofcourse,it's your opinion,altough in contradicts that of military experts and by the looks of it even that of turkish armed forces officers who have tested both of them.

 

[DejanSRB]

@Beast I dont know that HQ9 is better than S300,but it is BS to insist that HQ9 is better than S400.Ask any military expert here.
Dont be ignorant and arogant.Even western military analist say that S400 is probably best Air Defence system in the world.!

And if Russia offer S400 to any world country except US,every country will accept them wide eyed.