T-72: Still Useful or Not For The Indian Army To Depend On

[CONNAN]

A failure to use tanks is a failure of a war planner's imagination and no self respecting war planner would want to do without tanks in a theatre of war. With more than 1500 T72s does Indian Army ever think of the gap that isz going to form in the next 10 years were Even the modernized T-72BM might not be state of the art anymore.

BASIC VERSION

Especially in Indias case one has to remember that we use T-72M1s. This T-72 version is less capable from the beginning than a T-72B. Putting modern optics, TIs and electronics into them as well as a new engine and zeroes transmission is not cheap. One might about purchasing new tanks not only in order to get a overall more modern vehicle but also to reduce maintenance costs.

The PLA was a infantry centric army in the 1962 Sino-Indian War.This is no longer the case today, as China has substantially 'transformed' the PLA (the largest army in the world) with significant mechanized elements for combined arms warfare (this would include amongst others, the Type 96 and the Type 99A2)

MODERNIZED VERSION



You would want to use armoured forces to deal with armoured forces because the mobility would compress time and space in war planning.That is why Russia is not pushing too hard for heavily modernized T-72 series exports, they very well know that they have better chances just offering up the T-90 and this is what the majority of inquiries/interest have been for. Also the all welded design turret is the route to go for protection values, proof in some of the testing that I have seen shows this.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

We arent facing Abrams and Challengers right now. So T 72 is good for the next decade. But after that they are as good as duck shoot.

 

[CONNAN]

We arent facing Abrams and Challengers right now. So T 72 is good for the next decade. But after that they are as good as duck shoot.

but we will be facing AL kalid and TYPE 99 not to forget t80s which are specifiaclly upgraded as per the requirements of pakistan army and half of our tanks are night blind

this isz what i am worried about t 72s

source

Army tanks battle night-blindness - India - The Times of India

‘Night blindness’ worries Indian Army

Pakistan Supremacy in Tanks over India - Topix

NEW DELHI: A majority of Army tanks continue to grope in the dark, stricken as they are with an acute case of night blindness, in yet another example of the Indian defence establishment’s sheer inability to take timely decisions in tune with strategic concerns.

Army’s long-standing objective to equip its mechanized forces, including the over 1,600 T-72 tanks which form the backbone of the country’s armoured might, with advanced night-fighting capabilities is still a long distance away from fruition, say sources. For instance, Army’s case for acquiring 700 TISAS (thermal imaging stand alone systems) and 418 TIFACS (thermal fire control systems) for its T-72 fleet at a cost of around Rs 1,150 crore is still hanging fire at the commercial negotiations stage.

This when the ‘‘acceptance of necessity’’ for the TISAS equipment was approved as far back as in March 2001. ‘‘The capability to conduct effective operations to hit the enemy after sunset is crucial,’’ said a source.

‘‘But the TISAS case has been stuck for a long time, resulting in continued inadequacy of night-fighting capability of the armoured corps,’’ he added. Similarly, the infantry too continues to grapple with only second-generation thermal imaging (TI) systems when actually third-generation ones in large numbers are required to conduct operations after sunset.

The defence ministry, on its part, says the contracts for TISAS and TIFCS for the T-72 fleet are ‘‘likely to concluded’’ within the 2009-2010 fiscal. One of the main reasons for the long delay has been the failure of defence PSU Bharat Electronics Ltd to resolve technology
transfer issues with the foreign supplier.

The Army did get 300 Israeli TISAS for its T-72 tanks in 2001, which were followed by 3,860 image intensifier-based night-vision devices. But the experience with them has been uneven, with even the integration of some of these thermal equipment with fire control systems running into problems.

Even the 310 T-90S main-battle tanks (MBTs) imported from Russia, for over Rs 3,625 crore under a February 2001 contract, have faced problems with their French Catherine TI cameras.

Not being ‘‘adequately tropicalised’’, the Catherine TI cameras have often malfunctioned in the extreme heat of the Rajasthan deserts at temperatures of 55-60 degree Celsius. Incidentally, Army’s requirement for 1,781 MBTs to replace the older T-55 and T-72 tanks is going to be met through the progressive induction of 1,657 T-90S tanks and 124 of the indigenous Arjuns.

In November 2007, India signed another Rs 4,900 crore deal with Russia to import 347 T-90S tanks. The Avadi Heavy Vehicles Factory factory, in turn, is slated to manufacture an additional 1,000 T-90S tanks under licence.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

You must first understand how the army lobbies for more funds. This is just hype.

Army’s long-standing objective to equip its mechanized forces, including the over 1,600 T-72 tanks which form the backbone of the country’s armoured might, with advanced night-fighting capabilities is still a long distance away from fruition, say sources. For instance, Army’s case for acquiring 700 TISAS (thermal imaging stand alone systems) and 418 TIFACS (thermal fire control systems) for its T-72 fleet at a cost of around Rs 1,150 crore is still hanging fire at the commercial negotiations stage.

They already have good capabilities and want to make them even better. It happens in all Armed forces. The T 72M1 is as good as the AK I and the T 90s are being inducted along with Arjuns. The NAMICA has also been ordered in large numbers and the Abhay IFV has entered production. The main thing we lack is the light tank. We have very good tank force in the required numbers. The LCH along with the Dhruv and the MI 35 can dent any advances by armour.

You dont need to worry about our Armoured regiment. what we need is Good soldier protection system, Rifles, Coagulants, night vision goggles, artillery. These are the unglamourous and neglected part of the Mechanised infantry.

 

[CONNAN]

what we need is Good soldier protection system, Rifles, Coagulants, night vision goggles, artillery. These are the unglamourous and neglected part of the Mechanised infantry.

agreed

the T 90s are being inducted along with Arjuns

better to have the above tanks in the place of t72

 

[satishkumarcsc]

agreed



better to have the above tanks in the place of t72

well tanks are inducted in phases...and you think induction of the tank just means buying a car?..there is training of the crew, development of doctrine, logistics, supply chain...lots more are there which a leader of mechanised infantry like Vladmir sir or S2 sir can tell you. Read why the Army actually didnt want Arjun and you will know they will point to the logistics nightmare they will be facing having different tank carriages and all. That is why the Army DGMF is still skeptical about the Arjun.And they are going to place Arjun only in the deserts and set up a repair facility in Rajasthan so that they dont need to take it here and there.

 

[flaming arrow]

t-72 upgrade ptogramme is going on and that is good eniugh for all us to believe that this tank will stay fr some more time,being light in weight it can b used near china border...specially the northern area of sikkim with flat terrain,IA in the past has put them on the border and will continue to stay

 

[CONNAN]

well tanks are inducted in phases...and you think induction of the tank just means buying a car?..there is training of the crew, development of doctrine, logistics, supply chain...lots more are there which a leader of mechanised infantry like Vladmir sir or S2 sir can tell you. That is why the Army DGMF is still skeptical about the Arjun.And they are going to place Arjun only in the deserts and set up a repair facility in Rajasthan so that they dont need to take it here and there.

you think induction of the tank just means buying a car?..Read why the Army actually didnt want Arjun and you will know they will point to the logistics nightmare they will be facing having different tank carriages and all.

you are the one who talked about arjuns . i never talked about arjuns u said that IA ISZ INDUCTING ARJUNS ALONG WITH T 90 read your post dont jump like a fool here and there and dont go rough ok

i meant instead of spending money on t72 just get t90 because they both share lot of similarities

 

[CONNAN]

you think induction of the tank just means buying a car?..there is training of the crew, development of doctrine, logistics, supply chain...lots more are there which a leader of mechanised infantry like Vladmir sir or S2 sir can tell you. Read why the Army actually didnt want Arjun and you will know they will point to the logistics nightmare they will be facing having different tank carriages and all

and u remember i dont mean inducting tanks means inducting cars ok stop being bossy dude. but indian army and GOI f******ked up when it comes to modernisization of amoured divisions and u agree or not i dont give a **** this isz the ultimate truth

finally mind you way of replying dont f***k with other members if you dont like just say you dont

APOLOGY TO MODERATORS FOR MY LANGUAGE

 

[flaming arrow]

and u remember i dont mean inducting tanks means inducting cars ok stop being bossy dude. but indian army and GOI f******ked up when it comes to modernisization of amoured divisions and u agree or not i dont give a **** this isz the ultimate truth

finally mind you way of replying dont f***k with other members if you dont like just say you dont

APOLOGY TO MODERATORS FOR MY LANGUAGE

Whats ur problem why so much of boil my dear friend..mind you we are here for discussion satish has pointed out the current things...u simply dnt buy a tank because you want to have the best tank in ur inventory if that was the case you would have seen abrahams wit indian flags.....
Army is very correct on the fact that it has gone for upgraded t-72,do you think the army chief was childish enough to say that our tanks are night blind...my dear friend its a different way of making your self heard by others..
lets see what all tanks and adverseries do we face
western border
T-80 ud (the most potent in PA's arsenal)
AL- KHALID
AL ZARRAR

NOW them we have

T-90
ARJUN
UPGRADED T-72

T-90 AND ARJUN ARE ALREADY BETTER THEN ANYTHING WHICH PA HAS RITE NOW...
FOR EXAMPLE HAVE THE LOOK AT THE ARMOUR TEST RESULTS BTW T-90 AND T-80

On October 20, 1999 extensive trials of T-80U and T-90 protection from various types of threats were conducted at TsNIIO 643a Testing Grounds. The tests involved firing large amounts of ordnance (including several versions of RPG ATGL, light and heavy ATGMs, and APFSDS rounds) at frontal projections of T-80U and T-90 MBTs both protected with Kontakt-V ERA and stripped of it.


Infantry ATGLs (fired at a distance of 40m)
o RPG-7 (using advanced 105mm grenade PG-7VR with a tandem warhead, pen. 650mm RHA)
o RPG-26 (disposable launcher, pen. >500mm RHA)
o RPG-29 (advanced 105mm launcher, pen. 750mm RHA)
* ATGMs (fired at a distance of 600m)
o Malyutka-2 (pen. >600mm RHA)
o Metis (pen. 460mm RHA)
o Konkurs (pen. 650mm RHA)
o Kornet (pen. >850mm RHA)
* APFSDS (fired from T-80U MBT at a distance of 1,500m, the most likely round is 3BM42)

The trials yielded the following outcome:

* ATGLs
o T-90: RPG-29 produced a total of 3 penetrations.
No other RPG rounds could penetrate even the stripped target.
o T-80U: RPG-29 penetrated 3 times with ERA, all 5 times without ERA.
Of all other grenades, one PG-7VR penetrated the stripped target.
* ATGMs
o T-90: No ATGMs could penetrate the ERA-equipped target. One Kornet ATGM penetrated the stripped {without kontakt-5 ERA} target.
o T-80U: 2 Kornet ATGMs penetrated the ERA-equipped target, all 5 penetrated the stripped target.
No other ATGMs could penetrate.
* APFSDS
o T-90: ERA-equipped target could not be penetrated. Furthermore, after firing the crew entered the vehicle, activated it and was able to execute the firing sequence.
Without ERA, one round penetrated.
o T-80U (data available only for stripped target): One round almost penetrated (3mm hole in the inner lining, no visible equipment damage); two penetrated to 1/2 thickness; one missed the target completely; one hit the gun
T-80U and T-90 Trials 20.10.99

THE ABOVE WAS TO SHOW THAT T-90's armour offes better protection then the most potent tank in armoury i.e T-80 UD

T-80U and T-90 Trials 20.10.99
we have been operating our t-72's since a very long time or i should say russian tanks for a lot of time war experience and the doctrine so forth formed is then of great significance..our war doctrine follows around small and light weight tak,but that never meant that Indian army never looked for something else.CENTURIAN TANK WAS used by the indian army in the 1971 war and it had doe very good....
Arjun is a tank which has been made upto GSQR specs...so now it is coming as it has prooved that it is better then other tanks which are prsent wit us...now the army is preparing for a two front war,,and god forbid if that happens you would need numbers and it will come from these old workhorses which are been upgraded so that they are not simple cannon fodder...do you know we still retain the t-55's....
even china holds it fleet of old obselete tanks.
so next time please dont fire off without understnading...why aplogising to the mods go n edit ur post simply and show others respect..

 

[yashchauhan]

India has substantial T 90s and Arjun MBT and is inducting more of them and upgraded T 72 and F INSAS program is also one the way and with superior radars ,numbers and network centric capability wining against PA will be like a piece of cake.

INDIAN ARMY TANK 2010 2020
T 90 630 1620
ARJUN MBT 63 125
(our best tanks)
-------
LCH 00 114

 

[CONNAN]

Whats ur problem why so much of boil my dear friend..mind you we are here for discussion satish has pointed out the current things...u simply dnt buy a tank because you want to have the best tank in ur inventory if that was the case you would have seen abrahams wit indian flags.....
Army is very correct on the fact that it has gone for upgraded t-72,do you think the army chief was childish enough to say that our tanks are night blind...my dear friend its a different way of making your self heard by others..
lets see what all tanks and adverseries do we face
western border
T-80 ud (the most potent in PA's arsenal)
AL- KHALID
AL ZARRAR

NOW them we have

T-90
ARJUN
UPGRADED T-72

T-90 AND ARJUN ARE ALREADY BETTER THEN ANYTHING WHICH PA HAS RITE NOW...
FOR EXAMPLE HAVE THE LOOK AT THE ARMOUR TEST RESULTS BTW T-90 AND T-80


T-80U and T-90 Trials 20.10.99
we have been operating our t-72's since a very long time or i should say russian tanks for a lot of time war experience and the doctrine so forth formed is then of great significance..our war doctrine follows around small and light weight tak,but that never meant that Indian army never looked for something else.CENTURIAN TANK WAS used by the indian army in the 1971 war and it had doe very good....
Arjun is a tank which has been made upto GSQR specs...so now it is coming as it has prooved that it is better then other tanks which are prsent wit us...now the army is preparing for a two front war,,and god forbid if that happens you would need numbers and it will come from these old workhorses which are been upgraded so that they are not simple cannon fodder...do you know we still retain the t-55's....
even china holds it fleet of old obselete tanks.
so next time please dont fire off without understnading...why aplogising to the mods go n edit ur post simply and show others respect..

THIS ISZ WHAT SATISH FIRST POSTED

They already have good capabilities and want to make them even better. It happens in all Armed forces. The T 72M1 is as good as the AK I and the T 90s are being inducted along with Arjuns

THIS ISZ HIS SECOND POST

well tanks are inducted in phases...and you think induction of the tank just means buying a car?..there is training of the crew, development of doctrine, logistics, supply chain...lots more are there which a leader of mechanised infantry like Vladmir sir or S2 sir can tell you. Read why the Army actually didnt want Arjun and you will know they will point to the logistics nightmare they will be facing having different tank carriages and all. That is why the Army DGMF is still skeptical about the Arjun.And they are going to place Arjun only in the deserts and set up a repair facility in Rajasthan so that they dont need to take it here and there

he needs to go and find out with the above mention members.

there isz no need for this

you think induction of the tank just means buying a car?.

at the end of the day i know about tanks

 

[CONNAN]

what i meant isz we got time and money so replace t72 with t 90 since both share lot of similarites. its my opnion

so next time please dont fire off without understnading...why aplogising to the mods go n edit ur post simply and show others respect..

what does he mean by this

you think induction of the tank just means buying a car?

he brought arjun and he should read it not me

They already have good capabilities and want to make them even better. It happens in all Armed forces. The T 72M1 is as good as the AK I and the T 90s are being inducted along with Arjuns

 

[satishkumarcsc]

and u remember i dont mean inducting tanks means inducting cars ok stop being bossy dude. but indian army and GOI f******ked up when it comes to modernisization of amoured divisions and u agree or not i dont give a **** this isz the ultimate truth

finally mind you way of replying dont f***k with other members if you dont like just say you dont

APOLOGY TO MODERATORS FOR MY LANGUAGE

You just dont know what the GoI is upto nor do I. The Armoured divisions are not mordernised enough you say. Lets look at the threat perception that we have around us and what we need to do. Our doctrine has changed my friend. The logistics and supply chain of the armoured division along with the support and engineering vehicles are the things that count in a battlefield. You want to know how the Germans were far more successful in the tank battles on the European plains because they understood tank warfare better. Why did the Pakistanis lose the Khemkaran battles and the Battle of Longewala...lack of logistics and poor air support. A war is fought as a system and every part must do its job. Building a tank regiment also takes building proper engineering vehicles, tow vehicles, bridge layers, carriages, fuel carriers and all. This is what logistics concentrate on. Dont blame the GoI...and you call me Bossy? Ask anyone here and how long they have known me and how I talk to them.

Understand the terrainbefore you start talking about stuff. I am a lay man when it coems to tank tactics, but I can figure out something which is very basic.

T 72 with its upgrades are good enough to take on the threat perception that we are going to face and the GoI is taking necessary steps to modernise and meet the requirements of the army.

I was just trying to explain you why it is taking such a long time to induct tanks into the army...GET IT!!!

 

[CONNAN]

and finally give respect and take respect