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T-72: Still Useful or Not For The Indian Army To Depend On

You just dont know what the GoI is upto nor do I. The Armoured divisions are not mordernised enough you say. Lets look at the threat perception that we have around us and what we need to do. Our doctrine has changed my friend. The logistics and supply chain of the armoured division along with the support and engineering vehicles are the things that count in a battlefield. You want to know how the Germans were far more successful in the tank battles on the European plains because they understood tank warfare better. Why did the Pakistanis lose the Khemkaran battles and the Battle of Longewala...lack of logistics and poor air support. A war is fought as a system and every part must do its job. Building a tank regiment also takes building proper engineering vehicles, tow vehicles, bridge layers, carriages, fuel carriers and all. This is what logistics concentrate on. Dont blame the GoI...and you call me Bossy? Ask anyone here and how long they have known me and how I talk to them.

Understand the terrainbefore you start talking about stuff. I am a lay man when it coems to tank tactics, but I can figure out something which is very basic.

T 72 with its upgrades are good enough to take on the threat perception that we are going to face and the GoI is taking necessary steps to modernise and meet the requirements of the army.

I was just trying to explain you why it is taking such a long time to induct tanks into the army...GET IT!!!

By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 3rd Feb 2010

The Indian Army chief�s dismaying disclosure last month, that India�s tank fleet was largely incapable of fighting at night, highlighted only a part of the problem with the Russian T-72, the army�s main tank. In fact, the T-72 is in far worse shape than General Deepak Kapoor let on.

Another signal of the T-72�s obsolescence was its recent withdrawal, by the army�s Directorate General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF), from next month�s comparative trials with the indigenous Arjun tank. An embarrassed DGMF has realized that, without major refurbishing, the T-72 was not in the Arjun�s class.

But in the army�s long-term planning, the T-72 --- which the more advance T-90 will replace only gradually --- will continue to equip almost half of the army�s 59 tank regiments as far in the future as 2022.

Business Standard has accessed a sheaf of technical reports and funding requests that actually quantify the state of the T-72. Exactly 32 years have passed since the first T-72s arrived in India; army guidelines stipulate 32 years as the service life of a tank. The earliest tanks from the army�s 2418-strong T-72 inventory should have already been retired, making way for a more modern tank, such as the T-90 or the Arjun.

Instead, the DGMF --- longstanding advocates of Russian equipment --- plans to spend Rs 5 crores per T-72, hoping to add another 15-20 years to that tank�s service life by replacing crucial systems, such as its fire control system, main engine and night vision devices.

The military�s Annual Acquisition Plan for 2008-2010 (AAP 2008-10) lists out the cost of modernizing the T-72 fleet as follows:

� New 1000-horsepower engines (identical to the T-90 tank) to replace the T-72�s old 780 horsepower engines. The cost of each engine: Rs 3 crores.

� Thermal Imaging Fire Control Systems (TIFCS) that will allow the T-72 gunners to observe, and fight at night. Each TIFCS will cost Rs 1.4 crores.

� Thermal Imaging (TI) sights to provide T-72 tank commanders with night vision. Each TI sight costs Rs 0.4 crores.

� An auxillary power unit (APU) to generate power for the tank�s electrical systems. Each APU will cost Rs 0.16 crores.

The Rs 5 crore cost of upgrading each T-72 knocks out the argument that the T-72 --- at Rs 9 crores apiece --- is value-for-money. Retrofitting upgraded systems will escalate the cost of the T-72 to Rs 14 crores. In contrast, a brand new Arjun, with a 1500 horsepower engine, state-of-the-art integrated electronics, and the indigenous, widely praised Kanchan armour, can be had for a marginally more expensive Rs 16.8 crores.

�It is folly to stick with Russian tanks despite having developed the Arjun, and the design capability to continuously improve it?� says Lt Gen Ajai Singh, who headed the army�s Directorate of Combat Vehicles before becoming Governor of Assam. �India can tailor the Arjun to our specific requirements and continuously upgrade the tank to keep it state-of-the-art. Why upgrade old T-72s? It is time to bring in the Arjun.�

The T-72�s galloping obsolescence is magnified by the MoD�s failure to overhaul tanks on schedule: some 800 T-72s are years overdue for overhaul. Originally, each T-72 was to be overhauled twice during its service life of 32 years. But as the overhaul agencies --- the Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadi; and 505 Army Base Workshop, Delhi --- failed to meet their overhaul targets of 70 and 50 tanks respectively, the army decided that one overhaul was good enough. And with even that schedule not implemented, a desperate MoD has approached Indian industry to play a role in overhauling the T-72 fleet.

The total expenditure on the T-72 tank, budgeted for AAP 2008-10, is over Rs 5000 crores. The cost of overhaul has not been accurately determined.

so my point isz why dont we produce more T 90 TANKS

source
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/02/rather-than-buying-more-arjun-tanks.html
 
I was just trying to explain you why it is taking such a long time to induct tanks into the army...GET IT!!!

this thread isz about reliability and cost effectiveness why spend soo much money on a old tank when we got time and money for replacements
 
this thread isz about reliability and cost effectiveness why spend soo much money on a old tank when we got time and money for replacements

It is a stop gap measure and the induction of more T 90s means more training must be imparted and the army needs time to absorb the technologies. The training part costs more than the induction part. The logistics are already in place for the T 72 and hence it is fully understandable why the army is upgrading it's T 72. The T 90 is a good tank no doubt but the production capacity is around 50 to 60 tanks only and increasing production capacity means starting up a new production line which is going to cost more. It is a stop gap measurre adopted by the army to meet the immediate requirements of the Mechanised forces.
 
Ok lets put it this way...the Mirage 2000 upgrades are at $2.5 billion. You can replace all the 50 Mirage 2000s with F 18 whose unit cost is at $50 million a piece...why did the IAF stick to modernising the Mirage 2000? Dosent it seem illogical?

Mods this is only an example to prove my point.
 
Ok lets put it this way...the Mirage 2000 upgrades are at $2.5 billion. You can replace all the 50 Mirage 2000s with F 18 whose unit cost is at $50 million a piece...why did the IAF stick to modernising the Mirage 2000? Dosent it seem illogical?

Mods this is only an example to prove my point.

reason LCA DELAYED

depleating in no of fighter planes

but not in the case of indian army
 
and please spend some time to read this

Broadsword: Rather than buying more Arjun tanks, Indian Army to spend billions on refurbishing outdated T-72s

forget about arjuns in the article just read about the expenditure
T 90s means more training must be imparted and the army needs time to absorb the technologies. The training part costs more than the induction part. The logistics are already in place for the T 72
T90 and T72 share the same logistics this is the main reason for army going for T90 in large numbers
 
this thread isz about reliability and cost effectiveness why spend soo much money on a old tank when we got time and money for replacements

we have OVER 1000 T-72 currently in our inventory...how long will it take replace all of them by t-90 or arjun????? can you tell me???
currently avadi can produce 50 arjun per annum
say if the army orders for 500 Arjun mkI & mkII it wil take avadi 10 years to rol all of them out..i have not included the fact that avadi is also producing T-90 and upgarding T-72 (MORE WORK PRESSURE U SEE)

BY 2020 the design of Arjun and T-90 will become obsolete..army is far sighted we will have a FMBT WORK going on it could be russian or it could be a joint venture...
now you tell me what will be better to fill the gap of these 10 years

making new tanks that will take very long or upgrade already exsisting tank to T-90 level which will take less time and wil fetch you almost the same product ????? now you decide:cheers:
 
The T-90 was developed by the Kartsev-Venediktov Design Bureau at the Uralvagonzavod factory in Nizhny Tagil. The production model is based on the T-72BM, with some added features from the T-80 series.
 
and finally QUALITY IS BETTER THAN QUANTITY
 
we have OVER 1000 T-72 currently in our inventory...how long will it take replace all of them by t-90 or arjun????? can you tell me???
currently avadi can produce 50 arjun per annum
say if the army orders for 500 Arjun mkI & mkII it wil take avadi 10 years to rol all of them out..i have not included the fact that avadi is also producing T-90 and upgarding T-72 (MORE WORK PRESSURE U SEE)

BY 2020 the design of Arjun and T-90 will become obsolete..army is far sighted we will have a FMBT WORK going on it could be russian or it could be a joint venture...
now you tell me what will be better to fill the gap of these 10 years

making new tanks that will take very long or upgrade already exsisting tank to T-90 level which will take less time and wil fetch you almost the same product ????? now you decide:cheers:

that isz the reason i said

when it comes to modernisization of amoured divisions and u agree or not GOI MESSED UP this isz the ultimate truth
 
that isz the reason i said

when it comes to modernisization of amoured divisions and u agree or not GOI MESSED UP this isz the ultimate truth

Sorry our economy wasnt as robust as today during the nineties. An I asked you waht the chief was trying to tell there and you jumped into IAF.

When asked why Air Force was spending millions of dollars in upgrading old Mirages as the money could well be used in buyingnew Sukhois, Naik said, “When you buy an (fighter) aircraft itis not only the aircraft that you buy, you spend money in training people, erecting infrastructure, logistics, spares supply and life time support.”
 
Quantity has its own quality.....you need a balance between quantity and quality for the end result to achieve availability.

thats why if avadi production line isz full buy off the shelf t 90s from russia thats what we did in the begning of t90 deal. then we all can say
Quantity has its own quality.....you need a balance between quantity and quality for the end result to achieve availability.
 

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