Syrian Civil War (Graphic Photos/Vid Not Allowed)

[Falcon29]

@Saif al-Arab

I don't see need to gain reputation among the West. The visions of the people are to develop their society and form functioning state rule. It has nothing to do with the West. West intervenes and opposes the people because they want control over Middle East in favor of Israel.

Islamists shouldn't get involved in politics. They should play military role and develop military capabilities in Syria.

100% BS. Recent rebel offensive in Dar'a miserably failed.

No it's not BS, you are always here to remind us that it is BS in order to keep the narrative that Iran/US are enemies legitimate. You think we are stupid, any knowledegable person who studies political affairs in this region knows the whole game being played here. The victims are Sunni Arabs. Ahmed Jo is a dumb, naive person who doesn't understand how world works. But many of us Arabs are realizing the agenda here.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

@Saif al-Arab

I don't see need to gain reputation among the West. The visions of the people are to develop their society and form functioning state rule. It has nothing to do with the West. West intervenes and opposes the people because they want control over Middle East in favor of Israel.

Islamists shouldn't get involved in politics. They should play military role and develop military capabilities in Syria.

There would not be any need to consider the opinion of the West or anyone for that matter if the Arab world/Muslim world was the top dog as once before or a strong unit but that's sadly not the case. If Islamists were able to gain better publicity in the West they would have more room to grow in at home. You have to understand that the regimes in place in the Muslim world are extensions of the West. Here I mean that they are not truly independent regimes. They are all under the "mercy" of the West some way or another. If not they will end up as Iran but even their regime understood the need to submit to the West. That or they would have collapsed in a few years.

I am not an Islamist but if I was I would first try to improve my reputation and then work from that point on.

Please reread my entire post. I don't think that I am wrong here. It's based on what I have observed for years in all of the camps (Islamists, nationalists, secularists, people that don't care about politics and just their own little world etc.). Both locally and in the diaspora.

What we agree with fully here (it seems) is that the West has no preference for the Syrian opposition and it's more or less bullshit that the West is working actively to topple the Al-Assad regime. We don't see anything of that on the ground or politically wise other than lip service. As I wrote their main concern are refugees and extremists (read Daesh). Other than that the priorities are few and far between IMO.

If Russia (their new enemy) was not backing Al-Assad I have no doubt that they would have supported Al-Assad. Al-Assad despite his anti-West, pan-Arab, anti-Israeli rhetoric only cares about power. He would love the support of the West if that meant that his regime could continue ruling.

 

[Falcon29]

There would not be any need to consider the opinion of the West or anyone for that matter if the Arab world/Muslim world was the top dog or a strong unit but that's sadly not the case. If Islamists were able to gain better publicity in the West they would have more room to grow in at home. You have to understand that the regimes in place in the Muslim world are extensions of the West. Here I mean that they are not truly independent regimes. They are all under the "mercy" of the West some way or another. If not they will end up as Iran but even their regime understood the need to submit to the West. That or they would have collapsed in a few years.

I am not an Islamist but if I was I would first try to improve my reputation and then work from that point on.

Please reread my entire post. I don't think that I am wrong here. It's based on what I have observed for years in all of the camps (Islamists, nationalists, secularists, people that don't care about politics and just their own little world etc.). Both locally and in the diaspora.

What we agree with fully here (it seems) is that the West has no preference for the Syrian opposition and it's more or less bullshit that the West is working actively to topple the Al-Assad regime. We don't see anything of that on the ground or politically wise other than lip service. As I wrote their main concern are refugees and extremists (read Daesh). Other than that the priorities are few and far between IMO.

They don't need to grow, they need to leave the political scene completely. Let the Arab people deal with their administrations and have fun with them. The people in Syria or Palestine simply have no support and have to deal with it for several more decades. Nothing will change in the region, since the liberals and dictators keep telling us that Islamists are the problem. Then Islamists should leave politics and allow the regimes to deal with the region. Since this is what you Arabs want, everyone in Syria fighting Assad regime, everyone in Palestine fighting Israeli regime are terrorists(maybe not your personal view but definitely Arab gov view), then there's no point in suffering at all. Syrians should give all of Syria back to iran, palestinians should disarm and make Israel reoccupy Gaza. Then let the Arab regimes deal with Iran and Israel.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

They don't need to grow, they need to leave the political scene completely. Let the Arab people deal with their administrations and have fun with them. The people in Syria or Palestine simply have no support and have to deal with it for several more decades. Nothing will change in the region, since the liberals and dictators keep telling us that Islamists are the problem. Then Islamists should leave politics and allow the regimes to deal with the region. Since this is what you Arabs want, everyone in Syria fighting Assad regime, everyone in Palestine fighting Israeli regime are terrorists(maybe not your personal view but definitely Arab gov view), then there's no point in suffering at all. Syrians should give all of Syria back to iran, palestinians should disarm and make Israel reoccupy Gaza. Then let the Arab regimes deal with Iran and Israel.

How will they have any influence other than a shadow one if they don't enter the political arena? If modern and enlightened Islamists, the type like Tariq Ramadan, and his likes gained power in for instance a free Syria one day through elections, they would be able to convince the people that their way is the best way or at least better than the predecessors ways.

The current status quo in the Arab world in terms of leadership/system etc. has largely failed and need changes or at least serious reforms. Islamists as an important part of the population in the Arab world should take part in that actively and there should be room for them.

You know just like me that most Arabs are supporting the Syrian opposition fully and that most Arabs are practicing Muslims and those that are not are mostly cultural Muslims. You also know that many of the regimes (Islamic as non-Islamic) are influenced by Islam on all fronts. Even secular Syria before the revolution had many laws that derived from Islam, much more so than Muslim Turkey next door.

First of all it could be interesting to know what kind of society/Islamist rule that you would want to see and whether you are by principle against a "Turkish model" or basically a secular system in a majority Muslim nation where Muslim rights are not combated but where non-Muslims have freedom too.

You have such models in the Arab world too. Look at Tunisia for instance. Or Lebanon. Turkey was just an example as they are quite similar.

Maybe some of us should create a thread about this topic and have a discussion about this some day. It's for sure very much needed and it would be interesting. The problem is that the Arabs based in the Arab world can't talk freely here or some just don't want to. Another problem. Well…..

But you are right, the Syrian people are unfortunately very much alone outside of lip service here and there. This just shows how pathetic the leadership is of the Muslim world and the Arab world.

 

[Falcon29]

How will they have any influence other than a shadow one if they don't enter the political arena? If modern and enlightened Islamists, the type like Tariq Ramadan, and his likes gained power in for instance a free Syria one day through elections, they would be able to convince the people that their way is the best way or at least better than the predecessors ways.

The current status quo in the Arab world in terms of leadership/system etc. has largely failed and need changes or at least serious reforms. Islamists as an important part of the population in the Arab world should take part in that actively and there should be room for them.

You know just like me that most Arabs are supporting the Syrian opposition fully and that most Arabs are practicing Muslims and those that are not are mostly cultural Muslims. You also know that many of the regimes (Islamic as non-Islamic) are influenced by Islam on all fronts. Even secular Syria before the revolution had many laws that derived from Islam, much more so than Muslim Turkey next door.

First of all it could be interesting to know what kind of society/Islamist rule that you would want to see and whether you are by principle against a "Turkish model" or basically a secular system in a majority Muslim nation where Muslim rights are not combated but where non-Muslims have freedom too.

You have such models in the Arab world too. Look at Tunisia for instance. Or Lebanon. Turkey was just an example as they are quite similar.

Maybe some of us should create a thread about this topic and have a discussion about this some day. It's for sure very much needed and it would be interesting. The problem is that the Arabs based in the Arab world can't talk freely here or some just don't want to. Another problem. Well…..

But you are right, the Syrian people are unfortunately very much alone outside of lip service here and there. This just shows how pathetic the leadership is of the Muslim world and the Arab world.

Yeah...honestly they shouldn't have any influence at all. All Syrian rebels in Syria should withdraw from Syria and give it back to Iran. Hamas in Gaza should disarm and allow Israel to reoccupy Gaza. ISIS in Iraq should disarm and allow Iran to take all of Iraq. This is what the people want them to do, all this hatred from Arabs against Islamists, lack of any political and moral support to them. I don't know why they're putting up with it. They need to do exactly the above. So the pig populations and governments who keep demonizing Islamists end up dealing with Iran on their own. Let them deal with Israel on their own. Let them deal with theirselves on their own. And when Iran ends up causing chaos in Saudi Arabia, the Gulf, and Israel causing chaos near Egypt and Jordan after they take over all remaining Palestine lands, then Islamists should not respond to any pleas by the scum Arabs to come to their support.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

Yeah...honestly they shouldn't have any influence at all. All Syrian rebels in Syria should withdraw from Syria and give it back to Iran. Hamas in Gaza should disarm and allow Israel to reoccupy Gaza. ISIS in Iraq should disarm and allow Iran to take all of Iraq. This is what the people want them to do, all this hatred from Arabs against Islamists, lack of any political and moral support to them. I don't know why they're putting up with it. They need to do exactly the above. So the pig populations and governments who keep demonizing Islamists end up dealing with Iran on their own. Let them deal with Israel on their own. Let them deal with theirselves on their own. And when Iran ends up causing chaos in Saudi Arabia, the Gulf, and Israel causing chaos near Egypt and Jordan after they take over all remaining Palestine lands, then Islamists should not respond to any pleas by the scum Arabs to come to their support.

You are being too dramatic here and exaggerating to get your points across. Iran can't do anything other than supporting a few Shia proxies in tiny Lebanon and Southern Iraq and they can't go too far the locals won't accept any Iranian supremacy. Many Shia Arabs don't see them (Iranians) as equals to begin with even. It's all exaggerations. They would have no influence at all if they did not play the "Islamist" and "Palestine" card in those countries and the Mullah regime knows it. They won't stand a chance against the Arab world which outnumbers them in population with a ratio 1:6/7 and which is much richer, powerful etc. Even despite the conflicts. If Iran could they would have damaged GCC long ago but they can't.

It will remain a proxy war at most in failed states/states at war.

In reality Arabs are their own biggest enemies. Regimes in particular and the various political fractions who are not mature and have grown up in a culture where it is either "my way or the highway". We need to remove this attitude if we want to see improvements.

Trust me, I am as sick and tired of the status quo as you are and most sincere Arabs are that too. I dislike the regime aass lickers too with a great passion. Or at least I have developed an antipathy for them because they are an obstacle for the region and fooling nobody but themselves. Similarly I have the same view in regards to shallow Islamists - the type that think that they can suddenly and magically improve everything while in reality they derive from the same rotten tree.

Hence my main point here - the new generation needing to take over eventually. A new generation that hopefully remains steadfast to our religion, ancient customs and religions but at the same time do not shun modernity JUST like past Caliphates did.

 

[Falcon29]

You are being too dramatic here and exaggerating to get your points across. Iran can't do anything other than supporting a few Shia proxies in tiny Lebanon and Southern Iraq and they can't go as far as they won't either as the locals won't accept Iranian supremacy. It's all exaggerations.

In reality Arabs are their own biggest enemies. Regimes in particular and the various political fractions who are not mature and have grown up in a culture where it is either "my way or the highway". We need to remove this attitude if we want to see improvements.

Trust me, I am as sick and tired of the status quo as you are and most sincere Arabs are that too. I dislike the regime aass lickers too with a great passion. Or at least I have developed an antipathy for them because they are an obstacle for the region and fooling nobody but themselves. Similarly I have the same view in regards to shallow Islamists - the type that think that they can suddenly and magically improve everything while in reality they derive from the same rotten tree.

Hence my main point here - the new generation needing to take over eventually. A new generation that hopefully remains steadfast to our religion, ancient customs and religions but at the same time do not shun modernity JUST like past Caliphates did.

The new generation can do what they want, I have no clue what that will be. What I'm saying is Syrian rebels need to withdraw from Syria and give it to Iran, ISIS withdraw Iraq, Hamas disarm and give Gaza to Israel. Then the Arabs can deal with Iran on whomever else on their own since they have so much hatred against Islamists and willing to kill Muslims, make them suffer in order to get that point across. So let the pigs deal with the regional situation on their own. Islamists would become stupid and failed people if they don't do what I mentioned.

If Saudi Arabia got attacked and MB and whomever else Islamists whatever you want to call them came to your aide we would still see the Arab media with headlines: "Muslims Brotherhood terrorists aided Iran in destroying Mecca". Your guys fucking Hiqd is out of control.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

The new generation can do what they want, I have no clue what that will be. What I'm saying is Syrian rebels need to withdraw from Syria and give it to Iran, ISIS withdraw Iraq, Hamas disarm and give Gaza to Israel. Then the Arabs can deal with Iran on whomever else on their own since they have so much hatred against Islamists and willing to kill Muslims, make them suffer in order to get that point across. So let the pigs deal with the regional situation on their own. Islamists would become stupid and failed people if they don't do what I mentioned.

You are writing nonsense now bro. The frustration has gotten to you here and it's understandable. No sane person can be content with the status quo of the region but after doing some thinking and studying the recent events, the different camps, history etc. I have come to the conclusions that I have mentioned in my previous posts.

When you say that "Arabs" are willing to kill Muslims I am not sure if you are truly serious here or sarcastic. Arabs are the flag bearers of Islam and always where. People in general might move away from religion slowly but the Arab world is still a bastion of Islam regardless of incompetent rulers. I am talking about the common man.

If you are frustrated with the Islamist cause in the Arab world what do you think about it elsewhere? Be serious here.

Also I think that it is wrong to believe that only Islamists can solve the problems. That's IMO wrong. We need to involve EVERYONE. Something that many regimes have failed. This is exactly why, among other things, that we see the problems we see. Arabs are much more than Islamists and we as Arabs should accept that. Whether we are talking about the Christian Palestinian, nationalist Arab, Yemeni Jew or whatever.

That's where many of the Islamists have failed in the Arab world. I am not talking about Tariq Ramadan and his likes.

 

[Falcon29]

You are writing nonsense now bro. The frustration has gotten to you here and it's understandable. No sane person can be content with the status quo of the region but after doing some thinking and studying the recent events, the different camps, history etc. I have come to the conclusions that I have mentioned in my previous posts.

When you say that "Arabs" are willing to kill Muslims I am not sure if you are truly serious here or sarcastic. Arabs are the flag bearers of Islam and always where. People in general might move away from religion slowly but the Arab world is still a bastion of Islam regardless of incompetent rulers. I am talking about the common man.

If you are frustrated with the Islamist cause in the Arab world what do you think about it outside of it? Be serious here.

No I'm not writing nonsense, by 'Arabs' I mean the pigs who have hiqd on Ikhwan and other Islamists such as Gulf Arabs and Egyptians and Jordanians. You guys are responsible for the failure and miserable situation Arabs are in currently. All this pathetic hatred against Islamists means one thing: Get the **** out of Syria, Iraq and Palestine and let the fuckers from Gulf , Egypt and Jordan deal with Iran. I can't believe they're dying for ungrateful pigs who label them as terrorists organizations and refuse to support Syrian peolpe unless one little faction of FSA takes over everything. 95% of rebels in Syria are Islamists, they should withdraw and let Arab pigs implement their plans.

The Prophet himself stated that majority of Muslims will be scum at end of times.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

@Falcon29

Forget the regimes for a second and the often state-controlled media and the few bullshitters on all camps.

You, I need to ask ourselves whether we want progress for our countries and the Arab world or whether we want divisions to rule the show. I want a region where most people regardless of differences can have a peaceful coexistence although we should never forgot our ancient heritage, culture, religion, values etc.

Look, I don't belong in any camp here. I am a rare breed it seems at least among the Arab users on PDF.

I am a practising Muslim. I am content with the model in the GCC in terms of Islamic law (although it is not perfect) but I would also have no problem with the Tunisian or Turkish model. Or even the Western one. After all Muslims in the West can freely practice their religion and they have not become lesser Muslims just because they don't live in Sharia ruled KSA.

As I wrote this mentality of "my way or the highway" is a disease that most Arabs have caught due to the environment that they have grown up in (regimes). Not everyone of course but almost all of those in power have as you need to have that mentality to rule in the Arab world.

We need to move away from that attitude.
.
Can you feel me here or not?

No I'm not writing nonsense, by 'Arabs' I mean the pigs who have hiqd on Ikhwan and other Islamists such as Gulf Arabs and Egyptians and Jordanians. You guys are responsible for the failure and miserable situation Arabs are in currently. All this pathetic hatred against Islamists means one thing: Get the **** out of Syria, Iraq and Palestine and let the fuckers from Gulf , Egypt and Jordan deal with Iran. I can't believe they're dying for ungrateful pigs who label them as terrorists organizations and refuse to support Syrian peolpe unless one little faction of FSA takes over everything. 95% of rebels in Syria are Islamists, they should withdraw and let Arab pigs implement their plans.

The Prophet himself stated that majority of Muslims will be scum at end of times.

Not sure if serious.

 

[Falcon29]

@Falcon29

Forget the regimes for a second and the often state-controlled media and the few bullshitters on all camps.

You, I need to ask ourselves whether we want progress for our countries and the Arab world or whether we want divisions to rule the show. I want a region where most people regardless of differences can have a peaceful coexistence although we should never forgot our ancient heritage, culture, religion, values etc.

Look, I don't belong in any camp here. I am a rare breed it seems at least among the Arab users on PDF.

I am a practising Muslim. I am content with the model in the GCC in terms of Islamic law (although it is not perfect) but I would also have no problem with the Tunisian or Turkish model. Or even the Western one. After all Muslims in the West can freely practice their religion and they have not become lesser Muslims just because they don't live in Sharia ruled KSA.

As I wrote this mentality of "my way or the highway" is a disease that most Arabs have caught due to the environment that they have grown up in (regimes). Not everyone of course but almost all of those in power have as you need to have that mentality to rule in the Arab world.

We need to move away from that attitude.
.
Can you feel me here or not?

I have no idea what is the solution and I'm being honest. I'm not gonna try drawing up a initiative. I just want Islamists to leave the scene 100% since 24/7 all Saudi's, Egyptians, Emirates and Jordanians are doing is demonizing them in their media, oppressing them, killing them and being ungrateful to them. So they should do what the Saudi's, Egyptians, Emirates and Jordanians are requesting so we no longer hear any complaints from them.

 

[Frogman]

How will they have any influence other than a shadow one if they don't enter the political arena? If modern and enlightened Islamists, the type like Tariq Ramadan, and his likes gained power in for instance a free Syria one day through elections, they would be able to convince the people that their way is the best way or at least better than the predecessors ways.

You're assuming that generally enlightened and sensible Islamists (in comparison to those at the fore of Arab politics that is) are a considerable portion of the wider Islamist movement in the Arab world, they're not.

Many such as Tariq Ramadan are even considered 'sell outs' by the more dogmatic Islamists and they generally exist either on the fringe of Islamist politics or have completely jumped ship to other liberal or revolutionary parties or movements.

For instance the youth that splintered from the Muslim Brotherhood after the coupvolution that opposed the continuation of the Rabaa protests and the return of Morsi have spread themselves among many liberal or revolutionary parties in Egypt, notably the Constitutional Party and the 6th of April movement.

I don't agree with Hazzy in his analysis that Islamists form a buffer against Iran or Israel. They haven't historically and their current standing does not allow them to carry out that role without the support of major players around the region.

 

[Falcon29]

I don't agree with Hazzy in his analysis that Islamists form a buffer against Iran or Israel. They haven't historically and their current standing does not allow them to carry out that role without the support of major players around the region.

They're more than just buffer, they're sacrificial lamb. You don't have to agree, but if it actually happened that they withdrew completely there's 99% chance I am right in my analysis. Let the 'major players' do it on their own. They won't, they're cowards who are busy demonizing the people who are protecting them.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

You're assuming that generally enlightened and sensible Islamists (in comparison to those at the fore of Arab politics that is) are a considerable portion of the wider Islamist movement in the Arab world, they're not.

Many such as Tariq Ramadan are even considered 'sell outs' by the more dogmatic Islamists and they generally exist either on the fringe of Islamist politics or have completely jumped ship to other liberal or revolutionary parties or movements.

For instance the youth that splintered from the Muslim Brotherhood after the coupvolution that opposed the continuation of the Rabaa protests and the return of Morsi have spread themselves among many liberal or revolutionary parties in Egypt, notably the Constitutional Party and the 6th of April movement.

I don't agree with Hazzy in his analysis that Islamists form a buffer against Iran or Israel. They haven't historically and their current standing does not allow them to carry out that role without the support of major players around the region.

I know this fully hence why I wrote that many Islamists in the Arab world should reform and learn from those based in the West which have mostly realistic goals and who understand that Islam cannot stand alone. Progress and everything else that most of humanity has always sought after (regardless of time period and place on the planet) should follow too.

Please read my initial posts about this topic on the previous page. If they won't they will not succeed. Partially because the regimes in power will be against them and secondly the majority of the people who are content with living in states (albeit not perfect) that mostly protect their culture, traditions, values and religion. For instance I see no restrictions whatsoever for practicing Muslims in the GCC, Jordan, Egypt etc. as long as they don't oppose the regimes.

In a perfect world it should not be like that (not being able to oppose regimes) but that is exactly why secularism might be a solution. In such a case those people and those who disagree with those same people would be protected and their voices/complains would be freely hurt. Nowadays this cannot happen.

Anyway some of my own views I have described in this thread and you might disagree or agree with them but I think that I am pretty much spot on with my analysis.

 

[Ahmed Jo]

Maybe some of us should create a thread about this topic and have a discussion about this some day. It's for sure very much needed and it would be interesting. The problem is that the Arabs based in the Arab world can't talk freely here or some just don't want to. Another problem. Well…..

Yeah, there are not enough Arabs on here to get a fair representation of different Arab peoples. Some of my views, for example, are only held by a small minority of Jordanians (unfortunately lol) so I don't represent the typical Jordanian mindset when I say certain things, although on other things I believe I completely do. I certainly hope hazzy doesn't represent most Palestinians, although he probably represents enough Palestinians to render the future of Palestine even more tragic than it is currently. You can probably admit that a majority of Saudis don't hold some of your views either..

I have no idea what is the solution and I'm being honest. I'm not gonna try drawing up a initiative. I just want Islamists to leave the scene 100% since 24/7 all Saudi's, Egyptians, Emirates and Jordanians are doing is demonizing them in their media, oppressing them, killing them and being ungrateful to them. So they should do what the Saudi's, Egyptians, Emirates and Jordanians are requesting so we no longer hear any complaints from them.

That would be perfect bye bye 'Muslim' Brotherhood, y'all won't be missed. In the real word though we (countries that know what s best for themselves) have to force you into irrelevance before you bring us all down.

You're assuming that generally enlightened and sensible Islamists (in comparison to those at the fore of Arab politics that is) are a considerable portion of the wider Islamist movement in the Arab world, they're not.

Many such as Tariq Ramadan are even considered 'sell outs' by the more dogmatic Islamists and they generally exist either on the fringe of Islamist politics or have completely jumped ship to other liberal or revolutionary parties or movements.

For instance the youth that splintered from the Muslim Brotherhood after the coupvolution that opposed the continuation of the Rabaa protests and the return of Morsi have spread themselves among many liberal or revolutionary parties in Egypt, notably the Constitutional Party and the 6th of April movement.

I don't agree with Hazzy in his analysis that Islamists form a buffer against Iran or Israel. They haven't historically and their current standing does not allow them to carry out that role without the support of major players around the region.

What they form a buffer between are societies and progress.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
UNHCR - Jordan's Za'atari refugee camp turns three, challenges for the future of thousands living there un-registered Syrian refugees in Jordan are increasingly opting to go to the refugee camps because of high cost living in the cities and high unemployment.

This is why I don't like the notion that we can just ignore the Syrian war and be neutral, because hundreds of thousands of kids are growing up displaced and poor in countries that are not doing so well themselves. It's an unprecedented humanitarian crisis, only second to ww2 because major world powers want to keep playing their chess game in countries they don't care about instead of putting an end to it. Btw @Saif al-Arab i disagree that the American Russian rivalry is only played out in Ukraine, it's played out everywhere that it can. The Russians don't care about alawites or Assad, just influence in this region. Same for Americans, no hurry to end anything, couldn't care less. Actually the American apathy to foreign crisis will only grow in coming years, most Americans want focus on domestic reform and not foreign wars (even though they are partially complicit in those wars..)


I'll also add that the result of the refugee crisis will produce more conflict in the future so what you see today in the Mideast is in fact only the beginning of much bigger historical tragedies, if history provides any clues (and it does).