Su-30MKI & JF-17 Air Fight

[maverick2009]

HJ786...

Re: Your comment F15/F16 versis SU30MKI in USA.

We have all seen/studied the Vedio from the USA Pilot several times.

Regardless of wat happened in that Excercise the USA Officer pointed out the relative Strength of SU30MKI VERSIS F15/F16 VERSIS F22...

" Using his arms he clearly states SU3OMKI is a good plane in the right circumstances used by experienced pilots and is in his words a tad (slightly/marginally) superior to USA teen planes meaning F15/F16...

To demonstrate this gap he rises one hand slightly above the other = Marginal

He then proceeds to compare SU30MKI v F22 and shows a huge gap between F22 su30mki saying that F22 was way above MKI... n

No argument there.

With regards SU30MKI in South Asia context the flanker will not be fighting AESA equipped F15/F16 backed by multiple force multiplers like Awacs JSTARS & Satallites... anytime soon.

For this reason unless PAF acquires in large nos a western combat plane in the tech range of F16/60 F15S or Rafale/ Typhoon the MKI sets the bar/standard.

The reason i say large nos the MKI is already equipping 5 Sqds and will rise to 12 Sqds by 2014 or 230 Planes..

PAFs answer thus far is 36 FC20 in 2015 And
If war in SWAT goes to USA likeing 18 F16 block52.. in 2010-2011..

IS THAT ENOUGH ???

 

[Munir]

In case of a war? I think India bugged out twice when it had chance to fight outdated F7p and later combo F7PG and block15 F16... No BVR's, no AWACS no refuelers and no Ra'ad or Babur... What makes you sure they will risk against a few more BVR armed planes like JF17's and Block52 from june 2010?

 

[Gucci Juice]

by the time those j-10s arrive the mki is due for an upgrade with a new aesa, al-41 engine, and new avionics/ew equipment.

and the mki by then will be backed by 6 networked aewacs, and a satellite.

i believe the structure will be like this

mki: intended to dominate the skies over both countries and shoot down anything that comes in the way.

mrca, m2k, and jaguar: strike a/c supported by the mki

lca, and mig-29: mainly used for airspace defense and sometimes for strike in the lca's case.

mig-27, mi-24/35, lch, and new attack chopper: ground attack on tanks and stuff

6 phalcons: primary radar and controllers and also signit, elint, and other ew roles.

other aew: secondary radars

satellites: provide networked communications and spy on enemy movements

12 refuellers: 4 for keeping aewacs/escourts in air 24/7 and the rest for the other planes.



that's compared with

f-16/j-10: ground attack and air superiority (although not to the extent of the mki due to range, combat load, and radar restrictions)

jf-17, mirage rose, and j-7: air defense

eryie, hawkeye, and y-8 aew: primary radars

tankers: will be used to keep the aewacs/escourts in the air 24/7

 

[maverick2009]

Munir

If a SU30MKI pilot bugged out from shooting at a F7P OR F16 it was because of rules of engagement.

These guys are professionals following strict guidelines. ..

Don,t make the mistake that the MKI pilot chickened out.

A single SU30MKI carries up to 12 BVR/WVR missles
2 pilots 2 engines and combat radius of 1500km
Radar that can track 16 targets and engage 6 planes at once at over 100km

The flankers are the most talked about combat planes in the world and photographed like no other...

 

[ouiouiouiouiouioui]

JF17 FACT FILE:

Comparable flights to JF17 are

1.LCA- Tejas

2.F-16

3.MIG 29-A

Best comparable fighter to JF17 is Tejas and F-16.

Comparison:

Type: Tejas / LCA

Country: India
Function: fighter
Crew: 1
Engines: 1 (83.4 kN GTRE GTX-35VS augmented turbofan)
Wing Span: 8.20 m
Length: 13.20 m
Empty Weight: 5500 kg
Ceiling: 16400 m
Range: 850 km
Armament: GSh-23 twin-barrel 23mm cannon (220 rounds);
7 hardpoints, max external load over 4000 kg
G limit :8.5
Unit cost: 21 million USD

Type : F16C/D block 50+
Crew :1
Length :15.03m
Height : 5.1m
Span :10.0m
Max Speed :Mach 2.05
Max Weight :17010kg
Ceiling :16750m
Range :1000km
Armament :1 cannon, 2 Sidewinders, ext load 4500 kg.
Engines: P&W F100-PW-220
Control Systems :Triplex DFCS with one Analog Backup on MIL STD 1553B Bus

Type : JF-17
Crew :One
Wingspan : 9.00 m
Height : 5.10 m
Length : 14 m
Weight : Empty 6,321 kg, Normal take-off 9,100 kg, Max take-off 12,700 kg, Max weapon payload 3,800 kg
Max. Weapon Load : 4,000 kg
Max. Speed : Mach 1.6
Range : Ferry range 3,000 km; Operational Radius 1,355 km
Service Ceiling :16,500 m
G Limit : 8.5

There may be changes in configuration for LCA and JF17 when they enter service..

Ultimate Verdict:

LCA and JF17 will stand on same Level until operated by a clever pilot.

 

[Munir]

by the time those j-10s arrive the mki is due for an upgrade with a new aesa, al-41 engine, and new avionics/ew equipment.

and the mki by then will be backed by 6 networked aewacs, and a satellite.

i believe the structure will be like this

mki: intended to dominate the skies over both countries and shoot down anything that comes in the way.

mrca, m2k, and jaguar: strike a/c supported by the mki

lca, and mig-29: mainly used for airspace defense and sometimes for strike in the lca's case.

mig-27, mi-24/35, lch, and new attack chopper: ground attack on tanks and stuff

6 phalcons: primary radar and controllers and also signit, elint, and other ew roles.

other aew: secondary radars

satellites: provide networked communications and spy on enemy movements

12 refuellers: 4 for keeping aewacs/escourts in air 24/7 and the rest for the other planes.



that's compared with

f-16/j-10: ground attack and air superiority (although not to the extent of the mki due to range, combat load, and radar restrictions)

jf-17, mirage rose, and j-7: air defense

eryie, hawkeye, and y-8 aew: primary radars

tankers: will be used to keep the aewacs/escourts in the air 24/7

We all know that D E L A Y is the most important factor in all Indian projects. Build or bought. I bet you wil not have a nice list but not realistic. Let me make it transparant. Which project in the Indian history was on time and within budget? It is your call.

 

[ouiouiouiouiouioui]

JF-17 will need a better radar. Current it cannot even be used against the Su-30 in a BVR mode. The R-77 has a higher range and they can track the JF-17 much before the JF-17 can do the same.

JF-17 would need to play the numbers game and will need it's Thrust Vectoring. It will be fired upon once before it gets a chance to fire back.

This is not a scenario the PAF will pit against the IAF. Unless the Su-30's already close by when the JF-17s are sent for interception. The SD-10 is a damn good missile given that it's in range.

further to add some comparable stats for JF17
LCA
Country: India
Function: fighter
Crew: 1
Engines: 1 (83.4 kN GTRE GTX-35VS augmented turbofan)
Wing Span: 8.20 m
Length: 13.20 m
Empty Weight: 5500 kg
Ceiling: 16400 m
Range: 850 km
Armament: GSh-23 twin-barrel 23mm cannon (220 rounds);
7 hardpoints, max external load over 4000 kg
G limit :8.5
Unit cost: 21 million USD

Type : F16C/D block 50+
Crew :1
Length :15.03m
Height : 5.1m
Span :10.0m
Max Speed :Mach 2.05
Max Weight :17010kg
Ceiling :16750m
Range :1000km
Armament :1 cannon, 2 Sidewinders, ext load 4500 kg.
Engines: P&W F100-PW-220
Control Systems :Triplex DFCS with one Analog Backup on MIL STD 1553B Bus

Type : JF-17
Crew :One
Wingspan : 9.00 m
Height : 5.10 m
Length : 14 m
Weight : Empty 6,321 kg, Normal take-off 9,100 kg, Max take-off 12,700 kg, Max weapon payload 3,800 kg
Max. Weapon Load : 4,000 kg
Max. Speed : Mach 1.6
Range : Ferry range 3,000 km; Operational Radius 1,355 km
Service Ceiling :16,500 m
G Limit : 8.5

There may be changes in configuration for LCA and JF17 when they enter service..

Ultimate Verdict:

LCA and JF17 will stand on same Level until operated by a clever pilot.

 

[Munir]

How can one compare basis data and say x is better then y? You talk about radars, weapons, avionics and real planes. Not something that is on the drawing board for three decades.

 

[ouiouiouiouiouioui]

Country: India
Function: fighter
Crew: 1
Engines: 1 (83.4 kN GTRE GTX-35VS augmented turbofan)
Wing Span: 8.20 m
Length: 13.20 m
Empty Weight: 5500 kg
Ceiling: 16400 m
Range: 850 km
Armament: GSh-23 twin-barrel 23mm cannon (220 rounds);
7 hardpoints, max external load over 4000 kg
G limit :8.5
Unit cost: 21 million USD

Type : F16C/D block 50+
Crew :1
Length :15.03m
Height : 5.1m
Span :10.0m
Max Speed :Mach 2.05
Max Weight :17010kg
Ceiling :16750m
Range :1000km
Armament :1 cannon, 2 Sidewinders, ext load 4500 kg.
Engines: P&W F100-PW-220
Control Systems :Triplex DFCS with one Analog Backup on MIL STD 1553B Bus

Type : JF-17
Crew :One
Wingspan : 9.00 m
Height : 5.10 m
Length : 14 m
Weight : Empty 6,321 kg, Normal take-off 9,100 kg, Max take-off 12,700 kg, Max weapon payload 3,800 kg
Max. Weapon Load : 4,000 kg
Max. Speed : Mach 1.6
Range : Ferry range 3,000 km; Operational Radius 1,355 km
Service Ceiling :16,500 m
G Limit : 8.5

There may be changes in configuration for LCA and JF17 when they enter service..

Ultimate Verdict:

LCA and JF17 will stand on same Level until operated by a clever pilot.

 

[ouiouiouiouiouioui]

How can one compare basis data and say x is better then y? You talk about radars, weapons, avionics and real planes. Not something that is on the drawing board for three decades.

3 facts
the design
the rated output
the performance

it is this permeter that describes the mean m/c and not some hogus bogus claims ..but yes it is as always said "men not machines"
regards

 

[hj786]

HJ786...
Re: Your comment F15/F16 versis SU30MKI in USA.
We have all seen/studied the Vedio from the USA Pilot several times.
Regardless of wat happened in that Excercise the USA Officer pointed out the relative Strength of SU30MKI VERSIS F15/F16 VERSIS F22...
" Using his arms he clearly states SU3OMKI is a good plane in the right circumstances used by experienced pilots and is in his words a tad (slightly/marginally) superior to USA teen planes meaning F15/F16...
To demonstrate this gap he rises one hand slightly above the other = Marginal
Marginal difference in capability, you said it yourself. Can be overcome by tactics.

With regards SU30MKI in South Asia context the flanker will not be fighting AESA equipped F15/F16 backed by multiple force multiplers like Awacs JSTARS & Satallites... anytime soon.
The flanker WILL be facing hundreds of BVR attack capable fighters, fitted with up to date ECM suites ("focused interference" jamming according to a Chinese article on JF's Chinese avionics suite) and data-linked to AWACS.

For this reason unless PAF acquires in large nos a western combat plane in the tech range of F16/60 F15S or Rafale/ Typhoon the MKI sets the bar/standard.
Wrong, FC-20 will be comparable in terms of BVR attack capability to say the least - not factoring in advantages in supersonic agility provided by the delta-canard layout of the FC-20 airframe, which plays a large part in BVR combat. Phased array radar according to photos of prototype, TVC according to PAF.


The reason i say large nos the MKI is already equipping 5 Sqds and will rise to 12 Sqds by 2014 or 230 Planes..
PAFs answer thus far is 36 FC20 in 2015 And
If war in SWAT goes to USA likeing 18 F16 block52.. in 2010-2011..
Wrong. By 2015 PAF, according to an interview with the PAF COAS, PAF will have: ~46 F-16AM and 18 F-16C/D armed with AIM-120C5, at least 36 FC-20 and ~240 JF-17 (upgraded). That's ~340 medium and high tech. fighters data-linked to 4 Erieye + 4 ZDK03 AEWC and refuelled by 4 IL-78. Plus ~50 F-7PG interceptors armed with AIM-9M.
Oh and if the war in SWAT doesn't go to America's liking, PAF will replace ~64 F-16 with FC-20. PAF's high tech. requirement is 150 aircraft, to be fulfilled by F-16 and FC-20. Whether its 150 FC-20 or 150 F-16 and FC-20, these high tech fighters alone could defend against 230 flankers.

IS THAT ENOUGH ???

For 230 flankers? Yes it is.

by the time those j-10s arrive the mki is due for an upgrade with a new aesa, al-41 engine, and new avionics/ew equipment.
What's the big deal? Barring AESA (which may or may not happen), even the JF will be upgraded similarly.

and the mki by then will be backed by 6 networked aewacs, and a satellite.
PAF will have 8 networked AWACS and Pakistani satellites will be launched from 2011.


f-16/j-10: ground attack and air superiority (although not to the extent of the mki due to range, combat load, and radar restrictions)
Wrong, no radar restrictions when datalinked to AEWC.


jf-17, mirage rose, and j-7: air defense
Wrong, JF is multi-role and is being integrated with strike weapons. It has been clearly seen carrying dumb bombs in testing and the Durandal anti-runway bomb was sent to China for integration. In fact there is a new cruise missile based on Ra'ad under development specifically for carriage on the JF's under-wing hardpoints according to respected inside sources. Most ROSE Mirages are upgraded for low-level night-time strike missions.

Munir
If a SU30MKI pilot bugged out from shooting at a F7P OR F16 it was because of rules of engagement.
These guys are professionals following strict guidelines. ..
Don,t make the mistake that the MKI pilot chickened out.
A single SU30MKI carries up to 12 BVR/WVR missles
2 pilots 2 engines and combat radius of 1500km
Radar that can track 16 targets and engage 6 planes at once at over 100km The flankers are the most talked about combat planes in the world and photographed like no other...

A single mki will jettison nearly all BVR/WVR missiles as soon as an inbound AMRAAM or SD-10 is detected. 2 pilots means InAF loses more each time one aeroplane gets shot down. 2 engines means mki has to spend double the time in maintenance, flies less missions. Combat radius 1500 km means mki will face opponents with more fuel weight, reducing its performance. An mki can't engage other fighters at anywhere near 100km, R-77 does not have enough NEZ. Lastly, flankers are the most talked about by fanboys, nobody else. Photographed like no other by fanboys too.

 

[paritosh]

Patriosh doesn't know basics and keeps asking stupid qestions... Waste of time.

what is your problem?
just yesterday on some different thread you called me stupid...while others gave me valid answers...i refrained myself from engaging you the other time....be sober for your own good.
and about this thread...if you cant prove a point dont vent your angst on me...

 

[maverick2009]

HJ786

you talk about a FC20 as cutting edge which won,t arrive in PAF until 2015.

You claim it will have canards for extreme agility and phassed array radar..

Thats great wen these 36 planes arrive in 2015.

Yet SU30MKI x 5 SQDS have Canards TVC & Bars radar here and now. The best part of 100 planes.

In 2015 THE ENTIRE MKI programmed will have finished. Tranch3 of the SU30MKI IS A Ibris Aesa equipped mki with a KH172 ramjet missle.

Do you honestly believe the next 140 mki are going to be identical to the first 100..

 

[Gucci Juice]

hj786

i understand where ur coming from, but the satellite ur talking about isn't for military its for communications.

the 100s of bvr planes is true by 2015 it should be around 350

although those planes will have a good jammer the mki's will be better since mki is 3x heavier than the jf-17 and 2x heavier than the f-16/j-10. 2 engines means more electric power which means more jamming power.

and the bvr thing... mki flies higher, faster, and longer not to mention the rear facing radar which allows it to turn the other way and still guide missiles i can see the f-16 being comparable to the mki in bvr due to the aim-120 but the jf-17 and j-10... no they wont have aim-120.

and 150<230 and even the pilot from red flag said the mki was a tad better than the f-16 and the f-15 and those were both top of the line with aesa, the best avionics available, etc... the f-16 block 52 come close but not close enough.

and 230 is almost 100 more than 150... so i dont know about that, and u forgot to mention 126-200 mrca fighters as well and from the looks of it it could be either typhoon, mig-35 and f/a-18. if the typhoon/f-18 win the meteor comes in if the mig-35 wins the new ramjet r-77 comes in.

the big deal with the mki upgrade? it will have the newest stuff available in terms of ew equipment and avionics and the al-41 will allow it to supercruise, and i just dont see the jf-17 going for an upgrade in just 6 years time, it took the mki almost 15 years for an upgrade.

and the jf-17 wont jettison its payload as well? remember in airshows the mki has done manuveres with full payload.

and the opposite is true in dogfights the more fuel u have the better since u can stay and fight longer, if the opponent runs out of fuel and runs u can shoot them down easily.

and yes the 2 engines part is right it means more maintenence but that can be overcome with good training on the maintenence crews part and in red flag the mkis had a good sortie rate.

also the j-10 uses the same engine as the mki and the jf-17 uses another engine build by the same country.

 

[hj786]

HJ786
you talk about a FC20 as cutting edge which won,t arrive in PAF until 2015.
The first 36-40 (36 single seat, 4 duel seat trainers) will arrive BY 2015 according to interviews.

You claim it will have canards for extreme agility and phassed array radar..
It HAS canards for extreme agility and according of pictures of the prototype, it is specifically designed for phased array radar installation.


Yet SU30MKI x 5 SQDS have Canards TVC & Bars radar here and now. The best part of 100 planes.
So?

In 2015 THE ENTIRE MKI programmed will have finished. Tranch3 of the SU30MKI IS A Ibris Aesa equipped mki with a KH172 ramjet missle.
Exactly. mki will be finished, FC-20 will have only just begun.


Do you honestly believe the next 140 mki are going to be identical to the first 100..
Do you honestly believe PAF think the next 140 mki are going to be identical to the first 100?

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