Su-30MKI & JF-17 Air Fight

[Adux]

UAE, Singapore, Israel, US etc does use'em.

F-16I is a modified F-16 Block 52+

 

[blain2]

Isn't that F-16I? with Conformal tanks?
Does any other AF operates F-16 with conformal tanks?

That is a Hellenic AF block 52. UAEAF, RSAF, IDFAF all fly F-16s with CFTs as will PAF. USAF does not. There is such a significant IFR capability available to the USAF F-16 fleet that its considered an expensive upgrade especially when F-35s are on the horizon.

 

[blain2]

UAE, Singapore, Israel, US etc does use'em.

F-16I is a modified F-16 Block 52+

F-16I is not a modified blk 52, its simply a customized blk 52. Its actually a version of the blk52 with Israel's own systems integration and weapons mating. The radar is the same as the one on every other blk52+. They use different ECM suit and other indiginous capabilities.

The only massively modified blk 52 is the blk 60 (many say its a whole new aircraft).

 

[Chukkar]

Accepted Stealth is the mother of all tech...only Uncle has it for now.

Just a note: What if the stealth is nothing more than a propaganda? Who independantly has seen the F-22. All are just relying too much on the handouts of LM.

Bythe way Sicko-30 is no stealthy ...it is a big bird seen from long distances with big signature.

Thats only if the Sukhois (name calling an aircraft is rather silly, dont you think- its not like it makes the aircraft bad or good?) have not undergone signature reduction measures. Take a look at the ITAE conference papers at which the Russian unit describes what its achieved for the Flanker family. Pretty interesting stuff since it lowers the RCS especially, the frontal RCS of the Flankers, substantially.

 

[Titanium]

Chukker,

Are we talking of the current inventory or the future to be designed aircraft? The current Sukhois of whatever nomenclature have 10 square meter RCS and the russians claim of reducing it to 1 square meter is to be seen to belive.
Till then my above opinion holds true...............what do you say?

 

[blain2]

Thats only if the Sukhois (name calling an aircraft is rather silly, dont you think- its not like it makes the aircraft bad or good?) have not undergone signature reduction measures. Take a look at the ITAE conference papers at which the Russian unit describes what its achieved for the Flanker family. Pretty interesting stuff since it lowers the RCS especially, the frontal RCS of the Flankers, substantially.

The only problem with such papers is that they are written and compiled by Russians with a vested interest in showing their own products as superior. The same cannot be said of the western hardware (especially US) as it is in use by various countries who may not be averse to calling a spade a spade if they find issues and flaws.

 

[su-47]

MKI vs JF-17 is an unfair comparison as they are both of a different class and generation.

JF-17 is a 4th gen plane whereas an MKI is a 4.5 gen air superiority aircraft thats rated amongst the best in the world. As such it'll be better to compare JF-17 with J-10s and LCAs

 

[Chukkar]

The only problem with such papers is that they are written and compiled by Russians with a vested interest in showing their own products as superior. The same cannot be said of the western hardware (especially US) as it is in use by various countries who may not be averse to calling a spade a spade if they find issues and flaws.

I think this is a very subjective view, which ignores the fact that Russian products are in service with many countries around the world, who routinely call a spade a spade, and hold the Russians responsible when the latter s*crew up.
That apart, the first line doesnt really make much sense- scientific papers presented at academic conferences and seminars are invariably of a certain quality, and the ITAE presentation was comprehensive. The work was seen and commented upon by multiple industry sources. And Russias strengths in experimental physics, radar calculations are world reknowned. The infrastructure and work began long back, but the breakup of the Soviet Union caused huge problems and hence a hiatus. The fact is that while Russia is lagging in certain areas, it can and does produce items which are very competitive against other systems produced elsewhere.

 

[Chukkar]

Chukker,

Are we talking of the current inventory or the future to be designed aircraft? The current Sukhois of whatever nomenclature have 10 square meter RCS and the russians claim of reducing it to 1 square meter is to be seen to belive.
Till then my above opinion holds true...............what do you say?

Current inventory. The Russians reduced the RCS of a MiG-29 from the 5Sq Mtr range and upwards to 1 many years back. Its now in production for serial MiG-29s, including MiG-29Ks for the Indian Navy. The Sukhoi has a RCS of anywhere between 12 -16 Mtr square depending upon the source. The Russian ITAE treatments bring it to the 3 Sq Mtr class, a fairly significant achievement. According to reports, some 100 VVS Flankers are being modified per year. And there are other reports that these RCS reduction techniques were exported to India for the Bison and Su-30 MKI programs as well. If the former is true, it would partly explain why even the AWACS during Cope II at KalaiKunda AFB had a hard time tracking the Bisons.

This is from 4 years back.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=awst&id=news/081103top.xml

The Su-35 of course, involves extensive LO modifications.

I quote some excerpts from a Janes article on the issue.

A problem of huge size" is how the researchers describe the Su-35 inlet, with a straight duct that provides direct visibility to the entire face of the engine compressor. The basic solution has been to apply ferro-magnetic radar absorbent material (RAM) to the compressor face and to the inlet duct walls, but this involves challenges. The researchers note: the material cannot be allowed to constrict airflow or impede the operation of anti-icing systems and must withstand high-speed airflows and temperatures up to 200ºC. The ITAE team has developed and tested coating materials that meet these standards. A layer of RAM between 0.7mm and 1.4mm thick is applied to the ducts and a 0.5mm coating is applied to the front stages of the low-pressure compressor, using a robotic spray system. The result is a 10-15dB reduction in the RCS contribution from the inlets.

The modified Su-35 also has a treated cockpit canopy which reflects radar waves, concealing the high RCS contribution from metal components in the cockpit. ITAE has developed a plasma-deposition process to deposit alternating layers of metallic and polymer materials, creating a coating that blocks radio-frequency waves, is resistant to cracking and crazing and does not trap solar heat in the cockpit. The plasma-coating process is then carried out robotically in a 22 m3 vacuum chamber.

ITAE and its partners have also developed plasma-type technology for applying ceramic coatings to the exhaust and afterburner. The conference video also showed the use of hand-held sprays to apply RAM to R-27 air-to-air missiles.

ITAE has studied at least three techniques for reducing the RCS contribution of the radar antenna, in addition to the simplest method of deflecting the antenna upwards and treating or shrouding other components. One of these is to design a radome that can be switched from RF-transparent to RF-reflective. The interior of the radome would be coated with a cadmium sulphide or cadmium selenide thin-film semiconductor material which changes conductivity when illuminated with visible or ultra-violet light.

A second technique that is also described in Western literature is to place a frequency selective surface screen in front of the antenna. This is a foil-like metal screen etched with small apertures which allow RF energy to pass within a narrow waveband, corresponding to the radar's own operating frequency. This reduces RCS, according to ITAE, but at the expense of radar performance.

Its interesting to note that India itself has either already developed/or is developing several of these technologies- RAM, treated cockpit canopies and Radio selective radomes. What this means is that it could go be going it alone to reduce the RCS or that if it takes technology from the Russians, it could absorb it fairly quickly and apply it to its fleet.

To sum it up- I wouldnt think that the Indians would ignore the Sukhoi signature issue. Everything I have read so far indicates that they have done all they could to maximize the strengths of the Sukhoi airframe and minimize its weaknesses.

 

[Titanium]

And there are other reports that these RCS reduction techniques were exported to India for the Bison and Su-30 MKI programs as well. If the former is true, it would partly explain why even the AWACS during Cope II at KalaiKunda AFB had a hard time tracking the Bisons.

Would you care to point out the reports to that effect, which imply RCS reduction is done way back 4 years!!!

The russians are not providing SU-30 agreed upon and they are providing RCS reduction technique... which by all accounts recent development!!!!

Its interesting to note that India itself has either already developed/or is developing several of these technologies- RAM, treated cockpit canopies and Radio selective radomes.

Please either you say India has developed or developing.......if you do not know DON'T BS here .

What this means is that it could go be going it alone to reduce the RCS or that if it takes technology from the Russians, it could absorb it fairly quickly and apply it to its fleet.

To sum it up- I wouldnt think that the Indians would ignore the Sukhoi signature issue. Everything I have read so far indicates that they have done all they could to maximize the strengths of the Sukhoi airframe and minimize its weaknesses.

See you first started with Russian exported the technique now India going it alone!!! What kind of credibility you and your DODO spreading for the last 30 years.

P.S: Next time if you do have to say anything technical please think over before posting.

 

[Keysersoze]

Titanium I suggest you deal with facts alone and do not take the sneering undertone with your posts. It does not help your argument. Allow your facts to stand or fall on their own

 

[Titanium]

kEYSERSOZE,

I do understand you are mod here, I would be more than willing to rectify anything which you deemed " sneering undertones " but care to point out. I have seen ugly slug feast here, which gone unnoticed.

 

[Keysersoze]

kEYSERSOZE,

I do understand you are mod here, I would be more than willing to rectify anything which you deemed " sneering undertones " but care to point out. I have seen ugly slug feast here, which gone unnoticed.

Titanium It is the curse of South Asia that a simple technical discussion cannot remain civil.......

I suggest you look to senior posters from both sides as to how to post. Blain,Malay,Joey (to name a few)for example have the ability to argue their corner well without the usual silliness that can affect other south Asian fora.

This is merely a matter of presentation. Simply present your argument in a different manner.

 

[Titanium]

What exactly did I mentioned in my previos post, I asked him to backup his claim of RCS reduction measures supposed to have been in india for 4 years...........is it bad?

I asked him either he know whether India developed or developing ..no inbetween ...that is if he know...............is it tooo much to ask ?

Russia is supplying the RCS reduction technique.........when 4 years back or in the future.... can i know that from the Mr.Realiable source?

Do you see sillyness in this?????
My sillyness wouldl be to learn from your so called seniors like Joey, Adux and party

 

[Keysersoze]

What exactly did I mentioned in my previos post, I asked him to backup his claim of RCS reduction measures supposed to have been in india for 4 years...........is it bad?

I asked him either he know whether India developed or developing ..no inbetween ...that is if he know...............is it tooo much to ask ?

Russia is supplying the RCS reduction technique.........when 4 years back or in the future.... can i know that from the Mr.Realiable source?

Do you see sillyness in this?????
My sillyness wouldl be to learn from your so called seniors like Joey, Adux and party

Titanium i have said my part in this and will stand by it...If you choose not to take it on board then it will be to your own detriment.