SU-30 fighter pilots focusing on beyond visual range combat

[SipahSalar]

I was 'boasting' of IAF BVR capability on mig-29s.

And what relevance did that have to Kargil? The only relevance to Kargil is IAF losing its Migs and PAF did not.

You somehow think its a matter of poor skill to lose planes to ground fire,lol.In 1973 israeli air force lost 120 aircraft to grund fire and less than 10% of that to enemy aircraft,so losing to ground fire is hardly equivalent of losing to enemy aircraft,nor a testament of skill.

So you are comparing 1973 to 1999? Do you know how much the world changes in 25 years in terms of technology?

Secondly, the reason they lost more planes to ground fire is not because of ground fire being more effective than fighter jets, but the fact that there was very little Arab Air Force left to oppose them. It's like saying US Army lost more tanks to IEDs in Afghanistan than to other tanks, thus IEDs are better than Tanks. I hope my explanation is not too complex for you to grasp.

At least IAF had the courage to show up over the battlefield,unlike PAF which never came while the 'mujahideen' on the peaks were being destroyed by mirage-2000s from above.

That's the whole point I am making. If you guys lost Migs to lightly equipped irregular soldiers, imagine if you were facing the full force of Pak Fauj and Pak Fizaiya. And your Mirage-2000s' did nothing to the irregulars. After losing the Migs the IAF limited itself to fly sorties for Zee News clips.

Even your own leaders claim that it wasn't Indian military that caused them to leave the hills but rather international pressure.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

And what relevance did that have to Kargil? The only relevance to Kargil is IAF losing its Migs and PAF did not.

So you are comparing 1973 to 1999? Do you know how much the world changes in 25 years in terms of technology?

Secondly, the reason they lost more planes to ground fire is not because of ground fire being more effective than fighter jets, but the fact that there was very little Arab Air Force left to oppose them. It's like saying US Army lost more tanks to IEDs in Afghanistan than to other tanks, thus IEDs are better than Tanks. I hope my explanation is not too complex for you to grasp.

That's the whole point I am making. If you guys lost Migs to lightly equipped irregular soldiers, imagine if you were facing the full force of Pak Fauj and Pak Fizaiya. And your Mirage-2000s' did nothing to the irregulars. After losing the Migs the IAF limited itself to fly sorties for Zee News clips.

Even your own leaders claim that it wasn't Indian military that caused them to leave the hills but rather international pressure.

The relevance was that the point with BVRs came out when u mocked IAF saying they are finally catching up,and i retorted that IAF has been using BVR's much earlier than PAF and stopped f-16s in kargil from supporting land forces.You began by taunting IAF,i responded.Its not my fault u can't handle it.

I hope YOU understand that your ridiculous claim that somehow losing aircraft to ground fire doesn't imply a lack of skill.Even f-117 nighthawk stealth fighter was shot down over yugoslavia.Doesn't make USAF a poor skill airforce.Iaf lost its migs and PAF did not?well genius,how would PAF lose aircraft when it didn't even enter the battle?It hid in its bases.

As for Mirages doing nothing..i can show u pics of destroyed supply dumps and posts from mirage laser guided bombs.Mirages shattered the supply lines of the infiltrators and Pak minister was asking in desperation for IAF to stop its airstrikes.

 

[anyrandom]

I would be very happy if paks think that IAF is incompetent. Infact if I was an IAF strategist, I would *want* them to think this.

 

[45'22']

I would be very happy if paks think that IAF is incompetent. Infact if I was an IAF strategist, I would *want* them to think this.

Unlike the troll here, PAF is a professional force and knows how competent IAF is

 

[zambino]

I remember IAF planes swatted like flies. How many planes did PAF lose?
View attachment 262085

The pic is from kargil war. Ur air force was hiding under the bed because of mig29 . Your paf was so scared of bvr that they didn't took part in war. Poor paf.

4 Pages and no mention of their Atami Bum !! That has to be some form of record !!

And 1 jf17 = 10 su30mki too

 

[SipahSalar]

The relevance was that the point with BVRs came out when u mocked IAF saying they are finally catching up,and i retorted that IAF has been using BVR's much earlier than PAF and stopped f-16s in kargil from supporting land forces.You began by taunting IAF,i responded.Its not my fault u can't handle it.

My point was that planes that get shot down by Irregulars with MANPADs are not any threat to F-16's.

I hope YOU understand that your ridiculous claim that somehow losing aircraft to ground fire doesn't imply a lack of skill.Even f-117 nighthawk stealth fighter was shot down over yugoslavia.Doesn't make USAF a poor skill airforce.Iaf lost its migs and PAF did not?well genius,how would PAF lose aircraft when it didn't even enter the battle?It hid in its bases.

Oh please. The nighthawk was not lost to a bloody MANPAD. When you lose a civilian passenger plane or helicopters to a MANPAD, then it's acceptable, but when you lose a maneuverable high altitude fighter planes to a MANPAD, it IS the pilots fault and shows the quality of training.

As for Mirages doing nothing..i can show u pics of destroyed supply dumps and posts from mirage laser guided bombs.Mirages shattered the supply lines of the infiltrators and Pak minister was asking in desperation for IAF to stop its airstrikes.

Pictures of what? Unmarked buildings being bombed? That proves nothing. They make very good propaganda videos, i'll give you that. As for Pak Minister being desperate, I can show you an Indian minister claiming Indian army not being able to force out the mujahideen from the hilltops proved how incapable it was.

 

[SQ8]

You remember our chat about adder and alamo.... IAF put in foranother 350 odd alamos in 14.

That was bound to happen. Its just the more reliable platform... NOW.

 

[Kinetic]

Then in this field PAF is in much better position, they are using variety of standoff munitions since 90s as they know that its will be very difficult for them to go deep inside enemy territory in any future war.

Most of our airbases and deep inside India. How many of your airbases are outside Brahmos and PGM range of IAF?

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

My point was that planes that get shot down by Irregulars with MANPADs are not any threat to F-16's.

Oh please. The nighthawk was not lost to a bloody MANPAD. When you lose a civilian passenger plane or helicopters to a MANPAD, then it's acceptable, but when you lose a maneuverable high altitude fighter planes to a MANPAD, it IS the pilots fault and shows the quality of training.

Pictures of what? Unmarked buildings being bombed? That proves nothing. They make very good propaganda videos, i'll give you that. As for Pak Minister being desperate, I can show you an Indian minister claiming Indian army not being able to force out the mujahideen from the hilltops proved how incapable it was.

Well the mig-29s didn't get shot down by MANPADS did it?
MANPADS on high altitude peaks,lol.Not on flat ground.Training has nothing to do with it.In 1973 ,the original sa-7 strela MANPADS used by egyptians shot down mirage-3,which are of the same gen as migs and even phantoms which came a decade after introduction of mig-21.So its no surprise that armed with Later gen-Advanced MANPADS like stinger/ANZA,and helped by high altitude conditions,the infantry managed to shoot down a mig-21,an aircraft with its origins in 1950s.Lack of training has nothing to do with it,otherwise it would mean israelis are poorly trained.

Your a novice,so read up.This is a extensive research article from the well known American Carnegie foundation center on IAF use of airpower in kargil.Over 20 pages long.
Airpower at 18,000’: The Indian Air Force in the Kargil War - Carnegie Endowment for International Peace

Writer is a longtime specialist in international security affairs and air warfare, he holds a doctorate in political science from Harvard University and served previously in the Office of National Estimates at the Central Intelligence Agency.

Go and search what happened to the supply dump at Muntho dalo and the 300 soldiers and service personnel there.

 

[SrNair]

And what relevance did that have to Kargil? The only relevance to Kargil is IAF losing its Migs and PAF did not.

So you are comparing 1973 to 1999? Do you know how much the world changes in 25 years in terms of technology?

Secondly, the reason they lost more planes to ground fire is not because of ground fire being more effective than fighter jets, but the fact that there was very little Arab Air Force left to oppose them. It's like saying US Army lost more tanks to IEDs in Afghanistan than to other tanks, thus IEDs are better than Tanks. I hope my explanation is not too complex for you to grasp.

That's the whole point I am making. If you guys lost Migs to lightly equipped irregular soldiers, imagine if you were facing the full force of Pak Fauj and Pak Fizaiya. And your Mirage-2000s' did nothing to the irregulars. After losing the Migs the IAF limited itself to fly sorties for Zee News clips.

Even your own leaders claim that it wasn't Indian military that caused them to leave the hills but rather international pressure.

If you have had that confidence why didnt they showed up in Kargil ?
The soldiers body that we got from that hills had PA ID card .
Full force .Cut these BS man.
Our pilots in Mig 21 and Mi helicopter were bravehearts ,talented good pilots and sacrificed their lives for this nation.
Our Armed Forces always successful in repelling the offense from western side .During 1971 they showed their full potential.So you dont need to remind us about that.

My point was that planes that get shot down by Irregulars with MANPADs are not any threat to F-16's.

Oh please. The nighthawk was not lost to a bloody MANPAD. When you lose a civilian passenger plane or helicopters to a MANPAD, then it's acceptable, but when you lose a maneuverable high altitude fighter planes to a MANPAD, it IS the pilots fault and shows the quality of training.

Pictures of what? Unmarked buildings being bombed? That proves nothing. They make very good propaganda videos, i'll give you that. As for Pak Minister being desperate, I can show you an Indian minister claiming Indian army not being able to force out the mujahideen from the hilltops proved how incapable it was.

That is not due to incapability .That is an inevitability of mountain warfare.You was so capable in renegaging mututal agreements by holed up in kargil heights during winter season .And IA were incapable because they showed professionailsm.

You are just an armchair general in PDF .
Ask @MastanKhan in here .Then he was a soldier in that area .He will explain to you the devastation that caused by Mirage to your forces .Acccording to him India used both quality and quantity .Supply chain along the Munto dalo was perished due to constant bombing of Mirage .Whoever that planned that attack was dumb enough to ignore the capability of Mirage.

 

[GORKHALI]

Wonder how many air arms around the globe go on National TV to boast about an exercise or give press statements on their every action.....and then having to retract their tall claims.

Atleast No one claimed that their F 16 escorted Su 30 MKI loaded with BVR in 2009.

 

[Windjammer]

Atleast No one claimed that their F 16 escorted Su 30 MKI loaded with BVR in 2009.

You have repeated the same sentence so many times that you should remember it by heart but since a troll has so much confusion in his mind, it's difficult to remember the year much less all other detail..... come back when you have enlightened yourself.

 

[SipahSalar]

Well the mig-29s didn't get shot down by MANPADS did it?
MANPADS on high altitude peaks,lol.Not on flat ground.Training has nothing to do with it.In 1973 ,the original sa-7 strela MANPADS used by egyptians shot down mirage-3,which are of the same gen as migs and even phantoms which came a decade after introduction of mig-21.So its no surprise that armed with Later gen-Advanced MANPADS like stinger/ANZA,and helped by high altitude conditions,the infantry managed to shoot down a mig-21,an aircraft with its origins in 1950s.Lack of training has nothing to do with it,otherwise it would mean israelis are poorly trained.

Lack of training has everything to do with a fighter plane going down to MANPADs. ANZA 1 which shot your Mig is simply a copy of Chinese HN-5 MANPAD which itself is a copy of the Strela missile, and to lose to an old MANPAD after 25 years of known countermeasaures is really pathetic performance.

Your a novice,so read up.This is a extensive research article from the well known American Carnegie foundation center on IAF use of airpower in kargil.Over 20 pages long.
Airpower at 18,000’: The Indian Air Force in the Kargil War - Carnegie Endowment for International Peace

Writer is a longtime specialist in international security affairs and air warfare, he holds a doctorate in political science from Harvard University and served previously in the Office of National Estimates at the Central Intelligence Agency.

You haven't interacted with me before, so don't come to me with irrelevant articles to support your point and not expect to be scrutinized. Your own report mentions:

" The role of airpower, however, was tinged with controversy from the very beginning. Both during and immediately after the conflict, it was not clear whether the Indian Air Force (IAF) leadership of the time advocated the commitment of Indian airpower and under what conditions, how the IAF actually performed at the operational level and with what effects, and whether the employment of airpower was satisfactorily coordinated with the Indian Army at either the strategic or the tactical levels of war."
At another point it mentions that another report two years before it had said IAF had a "poor performance" in Kargil War. Reference 94.
So don't give me the authors credentials, i know how the literary world works and how to prove a point and you are not fooling me.

Also a "Doctorate" in Political science doesn't give him an expertise on Aerial Warfare. To be lenient, i'll give you that he might be very well versed in Political science but he knows bupkis on aerial warfare still.

What IAF bombed can never be proven, but what can be proven is that your Mig was blown out of the sky, and your Embassy in Pakistan refused to take charge of him when he was handed to them out of embarrassment and pure humiliation.

 

[aakash_2410]

lol, indians are getting excited for something that PAF already has in works for years now.

Our Ra'ad nuclear cruise missile can strike target within 350km deep inside india

Much like the reporter you don't know what you're talking about. Ra'ad may have a range of 350km and maybe air launched cruise missile but it's a SUBSONIC missile. Su-30MKI can dodge it at normal cruise speed whereas Brahmos is a supersonic missile with speeds of up to 3-3.5 Mach.

 

[GORKHALI]

You have repeated the same sentence so many times that you should remember it by heart but since a troll has so much confusion in his mind, it's difficult to remember the year much less all other detail..... come back when you have enlightened yourself.

Well my friend there is difference between a troll and a sarcasm.