STM to develop new covette project For Pak-Navy

[TOPGUN]

Outstanding news much needed for the PN , the more she gets the more better .

 

[cabatli_53]

PN has Harpoon, yes, but which variant will it be and furthermore will the US be willing to give more Harpoons. Second, if there is a VLS who will supply it. If it is going to be Mk41 it will need to come from the US, and given how there is still no Mk41 on PNS Alamgir, i am willing to be US will not supply it or will not be willing to provide ESSM, at least not at a price PN can get. If that is the case what are the options?

Sylver A50 is similar in functionality and dimensions to Mk41. There my be Chinese options available as well. Weapons wise, PN may want the Atmaca or proceed with chinese weapons AShM/SAMs or even south african SAMs or if possible, CAMM from Italy/UK. . That may be why they are calling a a variant or new frigate "like MILGEM". It will likely have non-US components.

TN is going to use own anti-ship missile called "Atmaca" which is claimed to be better than Harpoons TN currently uses. The SSM launchers seen on design image belongs to Atmaca, not Harpoon so The I class frigate variant Pakistan will most likely construct, will also have Atmaca missiles on board.

If the deal is finalized, Pakistani warships will have Genesis ADVENT combat management system which is the improved variant of currently used Genesis CMS. The Advent system makes the Milgem class warships fully network enabled (it can use the radars of other boats, aircraft etc. and can remain stealth without using her own).

Pakistani Milgem warship will have Ares-2N electronic support/attack system on mast, under the 3D radar which is a sophisticated part of the warship. The effectiveness of Ares-2N proved on Milgem class corvette which is actively used by TN. The land variant of similar technologies are called as Koral and used on Syrian border.

I don't suppose that Pakistan is willing to integrate MK-41 launchers + ESSM to own Milgem. There are many other alternatives that Turkish engineers can easily integrate them to own combat management systems. Turkish equivalents called "Hisar" will be operational by 2019 as well.

Turkey plans to use Phalanx CIWS system on I class frigates but Industry is developing two alternative CIWS system to replace currently used foreign systems.
-Korkut-D CIWS Naval 25mm
-Korkut-Lazer gun

 

[RAMPAGE]

TN is going to use own anti-ship missile called "Atmaca" which is claimed to be better than Harpoons TN currently uses. The SSM launchers seen on design image belongs to Atmaca, not Harpoon so The I class frigate variant Pakistan will most likely construct, will also have Atmaca missiles on board.

If the deal is finalized, Pakistani warships will have Genesis ADVENT combat management system which is the improved variant of currently used Genesis CMS. The Advent system makes the Milgem class warships fully network enabled (it can use the radars of other boats, aircraft etc. and can remain stealth without using her own).

Pakistani Milgem warship will have Ares-2N electronic support/attack system on mast, under the 3D radar which is a sophisticated part of the warship. The effectiveness of Ares-2N proved on Milgem class corvette which is actively used by TN. The land variant of similar technologies are called as Koral and used on Syrian border.

I don't suppose that Pakistan is willing to integrate MK-41 launchers + ESSM to own Milgem. There are many other alternatives that Turkish engineers can easily integrate them to own combat management systems. Turkish equivalents called "Hisar" will be operational by 2019 as well.

Turkey plans to use Phalanx CIWS system on I class frigates but Industry is developing two alternative CIWS system to replace currently used foreign systems.
-Korkut-D CIWS Naval 25mm
-Korkut-Lazer gun

We've developed our own AShMs so I don't think we'd be going for Atmaca.

 

[TOPGUN]

Any idea how many will be placed on order if things get finalized ?

 

[I S I]

Any idea how many will be placed on order if things get finalized ?

3-4

 

[Penguin]

A50 is adequate for a ship in the 3-4000t which is likely what this would be. A70 is for large ships (5000t +) which are used for land attack. Given the disparity in fleet strength between IN and PN these ships will NOT be ised for Land Attack but rather antiship/antisub/and light air defense (40-50km range missiles). They will he little to not use to attack India when subs and air/surface launched cruise missiles are far better suited for the job. Hence A50 is the most reasonable option in the sylver line.

For PN frigate, A-43 or even A35 could do, depending on the SAM adopted. VT-1 is the successor missile to Crotale (the latter is the missile from which HQ7/FM80/FM90 derive). A70 would only be usefull for firing e.g. Babur. The only Western 2 AShM I know that will be VL launched are LRASM and JSM (NSM development). I'm not so sure an ASROC type of weapon would be usefull, as heli's provide much longer range for ASW. I don't see PN using Aster family or similar longer range missiles.

Get a Turkish boat and fit it with Chinese weapons? Wont make much sense i would say. Why not go for those Type 54 frigates directly on this case but the idea seem to be developing a new supplier (and a good one) so i am not quite sure if we will actually see Chinese systems on these boats, that is, when and if we actually buy these.

Why not. I don't see a reason why one couldn't take a basic Ada and used a Chinese AShM or FL2000N or a Chinese 30mm or 76mm cannon. Type 054 is a significantly larger and more manpower intensive ship (crew 165 versus 93). Given restricted funding and the need for a certain number of hulls, it is essential for PN to have surface combattants that are both cost-effective (to acquire) and efficient (to operate).

If its French Sylver than I hope its A 70 version and I do hope we get these ships soon.

Why A70?

the Chinese have a huge array of weapons. combining the hq-16 with the tf-100 your looking at a bad@*** combo there for mid range altitude targets

Consider HQ16 is similar in size and weight to Buk (5.5m long, around 700kg per missile) you would need an Sylver A70 equivalent VLU or Mk41 Tactical equivalent. Those are tall: at least 7m and 6.8m respectively). That's about 3 decks below main deck level, or 2 below deck plus a bit above main deck. Considering where the VLSs are on the TF100 model, van the V-shape of the forward hull, I'm not sure there is enough depth in those positions.

Mk41 VLS: 5.3m self-defense, 6.8m tactical, and 7.7m strike

^+1. But it would be better if they get a quad packable missile like CAMM (though the options are limited). Hopefully the ch8nese can come up with something based around Dk-10

Yeah, then a single 8 cell VLS would make sense, centrelined forward of the bridge on TF100 > 32 SAM max, or eg 16 SAM plus 4 ASW. You might have 2x4 AShM plus 2x4 land attack variant of the same rack launched missile.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Consider HQ16 is similar in size and weight to Buk (5.5m long, around 700kg per missile) you would need an Sylver A70 equivalent VLU or Mk41 Tactical equivalent. Those are tall: at least 7m and 6.8m respectively). That's about 3 decks below main deck level, or 2 below deck plus a bit above main deck. Considering where the VLSs are on the TF100 model, van the V-shape of the forward hull, I'm not sure there is enough depth in those positions.

.

the a-70 is 7 meters long and you have have 1.5 meters spare so i think i a Chinese solution would be best. also the a70 is over kill for a ship which is quiet small. i read that the pakistanis wanted a shipborne anti ship vls for 2018 i think it said that @HRK would know

 

[HRK]

i read that the pakistanis wanted a shipborne anti ship vls for 2018 i think it said that @HRK would know

no detail is available therefore I would restrain myself commenting about the subject, but I do agree with your interpretation of MODP year book-2014-2015 statement that the system which is under development is a VLS for Anti-ship & land attack missiles

 

[Penguin]

the a-70 is 7 meters long and you have have 1.5 meters spare so i think i a Chinese solution would be best. also the a70 is over kill for a ship which is quiet small. i read that the pakistanis wanted a shipborne anti ship vls for 2018 i think it said that @HRK would know

You miss the point: 054A has a Buk equivalent HQ16 missile > at least 5.5m long > VLS accommodates that at least.

Chinese VLS

GJB 5860-2006:
The GJB document provided a wealth of reliable information regarding the CN VLS’ dimensions and function.
-VLS canister diameter is 0.85m (which is larger than the US Navy’s new Mk-57 VLS, which only has a diameter of 0.71m, and further larger than the Mk-41 VLS, which has a diameter of 0.635m)
-VLS canisters come in three lengths, 9 meters, 7 meters, and 3.3 meters (which is similar to the strike length, tactical length and self defence length canisters for the Mk-41 VLS)
-The VLS is capable of quad-packing missiles, as well as firing surface to air missiles, cruise missiles, anti ship missiles, and anti submarine missiles
-The VLS is capable of cold launching missiles, whereby a missile is ejected (such as via compressed gas) out of its canister, and its engine only ignites once it is in the air well clear of the ship and the VLS.
-The VLS is capable of hot launching missiles, but each canister has its own “concentric” vent for missile exhausts. The CN VLS lacks a central vent that all eight VLS canisters are connected to (as in the Mk-41), but instead a vent is present (and likely removable) within each canister intended for hot launch.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/profile-chinese-navy-vertical-launching-system.414684/

So here too, the choice is either the shortest, which limits to self defence SAM, or a longer one (7m at least) if multiple missile types are to be accommodated. GIVEN a TF-100 as base design, I doubt that these long VLSs will fit where they are projected and seen on the model.

 

[Blue Marlin]

no detail is available therefore I would restrain myself commenting about the subject, but I do agree with your interpretation of MODP year book-2014-2015 statement that the system which is under is a VLS for Anti-ship & land attack missiles

indeed that's what i was referancing

You miss the point: 054A has a Buk equivalent HQ16 missile > at least 5.5m long > VLS accommodates that at least.

Chinese VLS

GJB 5860-2006:
The GJB document provided a wealth of reliable information regarding the CN VLS’ dimensions and function.
-VLS canister diameter is 0.85m (which is larger than the US Navy’s new Mk-57 VLS, which only has a diameter of 0.71m, and further larger than the Mk-41 VLS, which has a diameter of 0.635m)
-VLS canisters come in three lengths, 9 meters, 7 meters, and 3.3 meters (which is similar to the strike length, tactical length and self defence length canisters for the Mk-41 VLS)
-The VLS is capable of quad-packing missiles, as well as firing surface to air missiles, cruise missiles, anti ship missiles, and anti submarine missiles
-The VLS is capable of cold launching missiles, whereby a missile is ejected (such as via compressed gas) out of its canister, and its engine only ignites once it is in the air well clear of the ship and the VLS.
-The VLS is capable of hot launching missiles, but each canister has its own “concentric” vent for missile exhausts. The CN VLS lacks a central vent that all eight VLS canisters are connected to (as in the Mk-41), but instead a vent is present (and likely removable) within each canister intended for hot launch.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/profile-chinese-navy-vertical-launching-system.414684/

So here too, the choice is either the shortest, which limits to self defence SAM, or a longer one (7m at least) if multiple missile types are to be accommodated. GIVEN a TF-100 as base design, I doubt that these long VLSs will fit where they are projected and seen on the model.

ah at least.......oh ok
then it seem that the only option would be to go for the south africain missiles which is 3.4 meters long and future variants being and extra meter longer with a diameter of 0.18m. nots im talking about the missile, not the vls.

 

[Penguin]

9M38M1, 9M317 and 9M317ME surface-to-air missiles comparison for the Buk missile system

9M38M1 > 5.55 m (18.2 ft) long, weighs 690 kg
9M317ME > 5.18 m length, weight of the missile is 581 kg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system

It appears HQ-16 is a licenced derivative of the baseline 9M38 Gadfly missile using the long chord short span cruciform strake design, rather than the 9M317 series missile airframe.
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-PLA-IADS-SAMs.html#mozTocId121731

https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan...o-purchase-hq-16-and-hq-9-sam-systems.284420/

HQ16A/LY-80 > Length, 5.010 m, 690 kg
http://www.armyrecognition.com/chin...data_sheet_specifications_pictures_video.html

IMHO at least 5m, likely 5.5m excluding canister.

 

[Tank131]

Best solution is A35 or A43 with quad packed CAMM for 60km fire and forget. CAMM is 3.2m (A35 holds missiles up to 3.5m) and has a 166mm diameter (1mm mor than vt1). A35 and quadpack vt1 so it should be able to quad pack camm. With a 16cell vls that would give the ship 64 missiles. If CAMM is unavailable the alternatives fall dramatically in range. You have 20km umkhonto-ir (or 30km er-ir when available). Hisar-O from turkey will evetually be ready and will have be between 25-40km range. Other options include chinese 50km dk10 which would likely require A50 or a naval variant (if one ever developed) of 30km fm-3000.

 

[nadeemkhan110]

A Turkish Navy Ada-class corvette. Photo credit: Millisanayi.

Aug 29, 2016Bilal Khan -
STM TURKEY IN TALKS TO DESIGN CORVETTE FOR PAKISTAN
In its official press release, the Turkish shipbuilder Savunma Teknolojileri Mühendislik ve Ticaret A.Ş. (STM Turkey) noted that it was in talks with Pakistan “in order to develop [a] new corvette project, like MILGEM, in order to meet the needs of [the] Pakistan Navy.”

This follows an earlier statement by STM’s General Manager Davut Yilmaz, who had hoped to finalize at least one of two major export orders by the end of 2016, one of which is the Pakistan corvette program.

Pakistan formally requested four MILGEM corvettes in June when Turkey’s defence minister, Fikri Işık, made an official visit to Pakistan.

At the time, Defence Minister Fikri Işık announced that Pakistan’s request for a $400 million U.S. loan/line-of-credit to help finance the acquisition had been referred to the relevant Turkish government bodies.

Notes, Comments & Analysis

Pakistan had attempted to acquire four corvettes from Turkey in the late 2000s, but strenuous economic conditions caused those plans to be shelved. Fortunately for the Pakistan Navy, it appears that momentum is once again returning to this requirement. The corvettes are likely being sought to replace the Pakistan Navy’s six Tariq-class (Type 21) frigates, which are on average over 40 years of age. These ships would be used to patrol and defend Pakistan’s sea lines of communication.

At this time, the specific configuration of the Pakistan Navy’s corvette design has not been disclosed. STM seems to be suggesting that a platform could be designed based on the MILGEM, but to what extent it would be similar to the Ada-class corvette is not clear. STM does have numerous surface warship design concepts it could draw upon as it prepares a solution for Pakistan.

That said, there is a noticeable gap in the Pakistan Navy’s anti-air warfare (AAW) capabilities. Its newest warships – i.e. the Zulfiqar-class (F-22P) frigates – do not possess medium-range surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems, which are increasingly common on other modern surface combatants. At present, the Zulfiqar-class frigates depend on the short-range FM-90, which has a range of 15km.

It will be worth seeing if the Pakistan Navy specifies that the corvette design maintain sufficient space for a vertical launch system (VLS), which could be used by a medium-range SAM system.

Interestingly, in June the Pakistan Navy had expressed interest in the Denel Dynamics Umkhonto, though to what extent is not known. The South African SAM system currently possesses a range of 20km (and a maximum altitude reach of 8km). A 25-35km range variant – i.e. Umkhonto-EIR – is under development.

Alternative sources could potentially include Western Europe and China. In the former, the Pakistan Navy could seek the support of MBDA, which has two short-to-medium range SAM systems in its product line – the Aster-15and Common Anti-Air Modular Missile (CAMM). MBDA Italy and MBDA U.K. would likely be the principal vendors, respectively.

In China, Pakistan could closely monitor the development of the NORINCO DK-10A, which reportedly could have a maximum range of 50km. Alternatively, it could potentially wait for the Hisar-O, which is currently being developed in Turkey by Roketsan. The Turkish route would not be unexpected. While Pakistan may have to wait an additional period of time, it would be a simpler process considering it would only require the input of the Turkish defence industry.

Finalizing the corvette contract would amount to a very eventful year for STM, which has also secured the contract to upgrade the Pakistan Navy’s Agosta 90B submarines. In fact, the company is also anticipating to finalize another big-ticket contract, potentially from an Arab Gulf country. These contracts are not only an opportunity STM, but also other Turkish defence vendors, such as Aselsan, Havelsan and Roketsan.
Source: http://quwa.org/2016/08/29/stm-turkey-talks-design-corvette-pakistan/

 

[-------]

TN is going to use own anti-ship missile called "Atmaca" which is claimed to be better than Harpoons TN currently uses. The SSM launchers seen on design image belongs to Atmaca, not Harpoon so The I class frigate variant Pakistan will most likely construct, will also have Atmaca missiles on board.

If the deal is finalized, Pakistani warships will have Genesis ADVENT combat management system which is the improved variant of currently used Genesis CMS. The Advent system makes the Milgem class warships fully network enabled (it can use the radars of other boats, aircraft etc. and can remain stealth without using her own).

Pakistani Milgem warship will have Ares-2N electronic support/attack system on mast, under the 3D radar which is a sophisticated part of the warship. The effectiveness of Ares-2N proved on Milgem class corvette which is actively used by TN. The land variant of similar technologies are called as Koral and used on Syrian border.

I don't suppose that Pakistan is willing to integrate MK-41 launchers + ESSM to own Milgem. There are many other alternatives that Turkish engineers can easily integrate them to own combat management systems. Turkish equivalents called "Hisar" will be operational by 2019 as well.

Turkey plans to use Phalanx CIWS system on I class frigates but Industry is developing two alternative CIWS system to replace currently used foreign systems.
-Korkut-D CIWS Naval 25mm
-Korkut-Lazer gun

Bro, there are other systems on-board MILGEM that makes the ship stealthier to radars and sonars. I'm wondering if those equipment will be exported ?

 

[Muhammad Omar]

Sir g The Thread Already exists
https://defence.pk/threads/stm-to-d...oject-for-pak-navy.446431/page-4#post-8629945

@waz