truthseeker2010
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as long as there is iran and saudia, there is and will not be islamic world...........
Spectacular dive of the ghazi general
- Thread starter Devil Soul
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as long as there is iran and saudia, there is and will not be islamic world...........
touqeer haq
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We should wait for some time to see the out come of this decision rather jumping to conclusion nd try to defame a true patriot..if he is going there for dollars than he would have done deal with NS nd get a lot more.
R Wing
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It is incredible how one can be labeled pro-Iran at the very first hint of Saudi criticism. Relax!
1.) The real threat to Pakistan today is not Iranian proxies; it is militant groups that derive their fundamental and ideological basis from a form of Islam funded and exported by the House of Saud --- i.e. Wahabbi/Salafi with the central concept of Takfeer, or the concept of declaring another Muslim a non-Muslim. This is the backbone of TTP, LeJ, ISIS, etc., and --- surprise --- it is a highly dangerous concept that has destroyed our society. Pls check statistics of Pakistanis killed by Iranian proxies vs. Wahhabi/Salafi terrorists --- there is no comparison.
2.) My first name is one that Shias never keep (in case it isn't clear, I'm Sunni). Yet that does not make me automatically politically biased against Iran, just because Iran is a Shia-majority country. Fortunately, I'm a little more mature than that.
3.) Iran is at the forefront of the fight against Takfeeri militants, especially ISIS. Saudi Arabia, on the other hand, has a hand in supporting/funding the likes of ISIS. Is Iran perfect? Obviously not! Does Iran also support violent proxies? Yes! The problem with the House of Saud is that it is so scared of losing its grip on power that it is willing to sleep with the worst of the worst --- whether ISIS or Israel --- to contain Iran. Say what you will, Iran is better than ISIS and Israel in my book.
4.) This is not an Iran vs. Saudi discussion or zero-sum-game; I dared to suggest that I would lose respect for Gen Shareef --- who contributed greatly to Pakistan's stability but, like any human being, is not perfect --- if he joined this controversial and non-inclusive military alliance. If ALL Muslim countries were a part of this, it would have been much better. If even just Saudi Arabia and Iran together were a part of this, that would have been huge progress. Gen Shareef should focus on his own country by educating young minds, working for veteran affairs, etc., as he promised.
5.) The most pathetic minds on this forum accuse others of putting other countries' interests before those of Pakistan; pls furnish proof of any of my posts where I have done anything close to what you are suggesting. I still am having a hard time believing you jumped to accusing me of being pro-Iran/anti-Pakistan based on a little criticism of a Pakistani citizen's (who is not a Prophet) potential move to serve another country.
6.) I am generally against, and all patriots should be, our national security leaders (whether civ or mil) being employed by another country. Gen Pasha went off to the UAE; an ex spymaster or COAS should never serve another country. Only Pakistan is available for rent. Shaukat Aziz served in various corporate roles. It is unbecoming of a commander-in-chief.
Is Pakistan not good enough? Is there not enough work to be done here for the welfare of the State?
Wait.
To get things straight: does criticizing Saudi Arabia, or a Pakistani general, make you an Iranian proxy? That's news!
Tell me more conclusions your brilliant mind draws. I'm genuinely curious.
On a serious note, grow up! Iran is fighting ISIS too. Our mil and civ leaders need to learn how to stay in and serve our own country before running off to make the most of lucrative offers. There is enough work to be done, even by retired leaders, within Pakistan. Teach, help, spearhead community service and de-radicalization drives. Whether it's going to serve in Iran, Saudi, UAE or the US --- I am equally against it. Our leaders should serve Pakistan, period.
I agree that we should wait before jumping to conclusions... that's why I said "IF" he joins...
And it's my personal opinion. Losing respect for a human being (who is not a Prophet) is not the end of the world. Gen Raheel's contributions to Pakistan's stability will remain remembered fondly.
But I'm not. It's incredible how quickly one gets labeled on this forum by blind followers of a monarchy (not accusing you because your posts are generally top notch)... just saddened at the quality (or lack thereof) of intellect on this forum of late...
AZADPAKISTAN2009
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Take the Command General Raheel , full support behind you
Don't worry about Journalist they are paid for , from outside they can hardly know what it means to Command a unified force. The only thing Journalist ever do is command which Dubai account their facilitators transfer the cash to or if their paid for appartment would be 2 bedroom or 4
The chance to Lead , and protect Two holy mosque does not comes every day and help bring countries closer
Its funny how folks with 2-3 posts are suddenly active on the form and commending or saying negative things about General Raheel , must be part of the BHANSA group promoting their agenda
Also it makes 100% sense that regional small issues are dealt by regional Joint forces , such as Terrorism problem regionally
There is no better Commander to lead such initiative , considering General Bajwa is focused on Pakistan's National Security
Lead the way, journalist will only harp about stuff what they were paid to harp about
Goals of Role:
1- Security of Two holy mosque
2- Regional cooperation enhancement
3- Tackling regional problems (Terrorism, regional conflicts, developing consenses on peace)
4- A unified stance on regional issues
What better way to bring regional Economic powers together
Turkey - Saudia - Pakistan
+ GCC / Iran
And most of OIC countriesc (Egypt / Libya / Tunis / Algeria / Morocco /Malasia / Indonesia etc )
Lead the way , becasue these Journalist only know how to follow or write or discuss million times a day , they can't solve a single problem by themselves.
Don't worry about Journalist they are paid for , from outside they can hardly know what it means to Command a unified force. The only thing Journalist ever do is command which Dubai account their facilitators transfer the cash to or if their paid for appartment would be 2 bedroom or 4
The chance to Lead , and protect Two holy mosque does not comes every day and help bring countries closer
Its funny how folks with 2-3 posts are suddenly active on the form and commending or saying negative things about General Raheel , must be part of the BHANSA group promoting their agenda
Also it makes 100% sense that regional small issues are dealt by regional Joint forces , such as Terrorism problem regionally
There is no better Commander to lead such initiative , considering General Bajwa is focused on Pakistan's National Security
Lead the way, journalist will only harp about stuff what they were paid to harp about
Goals of Role:
1- Security of Two holy mosque
2- Regional cooperation enhancement
3- Tackling regional problems (Terrorism, regional conflicts, developing consenses on peace)
4- A unified stance on regional issues
What better way to bring regional Economic powers together
Turkey - Saudia - Pakistan
+ GCC / Iran
And most of OIC countriesc (Egypt / Libya / Tunis / Algeria / Morocco /Malasia / Indonesia etc )
Lead the way , becasue these Journalist only know how to follow or write or discuss million times a day , they can't solve a single problem by themselves.
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Sheikh Rauf
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instead of hating or loving someone lets just say what ever he will do it will be best interest of Pakistan.
our political workers follow these corrupt leaders blindly why cant we trust our Army specially if its like GRS.
i trust you and support you Sir, what ever decision you make.
our political workers follow these corrupt leaders blindly why cant we trust our Army specially if its like GRS.
i trust you and support you Sir, what ever decision you make.
Cookie Monster
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It's easy for this writer and the keyboard warriors here to spout nonsense against Raheel Sharif. What's his crime exactly to deserve such idiotic comments? That he would be heading a force that would be fighting terrorism?
Must be nice to be able to sit behind the safety of ur walls and criticize him who ensured u ur safety by killing terrorists in Pakistan and is now moving on to fight another war.
Must be nice to be able to sit behind the safety of ur walls and criticize him who ensured u ur safety by killing terrorists in Pakistan and is now moving on to fight another war.
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DESERT FIGHTER
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I never quoted you to begin with... in this country you can be declared a kaffir and wajibulqatl... labelling to choti baat hai.
ADIL SHERDIL
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The thing is when he was in uniform he served and completed his duties like none other before him. He not only tackled terrorism but also made army respectable organization. He did what he was supposed to do. Now 34 nation muslim alliance its not a bad idea but it is. It would be like SHIA vs Sunni as we all know the love of SAUDI toward Iran and other country and this will turn messy in our country aswell as we have both sect. and other sect. whose sole purpose are to fight among themselves and declare other sect. kafir etc.Pakistan should be running from such scenario not running the show. Politicians are so hypocritical that they have started to bash the image of army and they are forgetting that it was Saudi who saved them when Mush came to power.
R Wing
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I know boss, that's why I didn't address my long lecture to you. I have always enjoyed your posts even though I'm a relatively new member!
My entire point was that this whole concept of declaring someone a kaafir / wajib-ul-qatal thing is a product of the concept of takfeer, which is a fundamental pillar of Wahabbi/Salafi thought --- funded and supported by the House of Saud via a network of poisonous madrassas that our State (and Deep State) is still having trouble controlling.
It provides endless fuel/fodder for militant recruiters.
BTW, I'm working on a film on Sultan Saladin to showcase a more tolerant form of Islam, even in times of war: www.SaladinFilm.com
Bratva
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Btw, what do you mean by more tolerant form of Islam? Islam is Islam, You have to own and accept every practice of Islam. You can't pick and choose. If there is tolerance in Islam, then there is strictness in Islam. Tolerance is shown when Muslims are in a weak Position. When They are in a dominate position, they get strict
Salahdin chose mercy over Revenge & Justice. This is one perspective. Other is Islam did not prohibited him from Taking revenge of all those muslims crusaders killed.
What Salahdin did was out of his own goodwill and kindness. Irrespective of the Religion. Or Else ISIS are also so called muslims carrying out religious commandments.
So it all boils down to the strength of Person character irrespective of his Religious convictions. Or else we all know What are the rules for female slaves in Islam.
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Hakikat ve Hikmet
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Mustafa Kemal Pasha was an officer in the Ottoman army. He was sent to Anatolia after the armistice by Sultan Vahdettin himself to organize a national struggle for freedom. The Sultan was warned by the Intelligence that Kemal Pasha had ulterior motives, yet the Sultan continued even it meant the end of Saltanat. Kemal Pasha organized the folks stating that he's working to restore Halife and Hilafet to its glory by dispatching the British. The author appears to be blinded by secularism..Spectacular dive of the ghazi general
Home / Today's Paper / Opinion / Spectacular dive of the ghazi general
By Ayaz Amir
January 10, 2017
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Islamabad diary
Our outgoing general on the basis of his record was considered a better commander than most in our water-logged history, taking decisions and risks that others were too afraid or nervous to take.
As a result he rose in popular estimation, hailed as a hero by ordinary people, truck-drivers and the like who put his portrait on the back of their vehicles. Armchair Stalinists such as myself who are good at nursing dreams of change and even revolution from the comfort of their sofas, played with the notion that after the defeat of terrorism the national stables could also somehow be cleaned.
The liberati kept its own counsel. Its votaries didn’t like the way military performance was outshining civilian fumbling. But as Fata was freed from the grip of the Taliban, and Karachi liberated from the clutches of the MQM, there was not much the liberati could do except for its champions to grit their teeth in silence. With the chief’s exit they started finding their voice and took to denigrating what the armed forces had achieved.
But nothing that the denigrators could do comes close to what the chief, expected to perform the labours of Hercules, has managed to do to himself. The word, now more than a rumour, that he is about to take service under the Saudi crown has at a stroke demolished the image built up over the last three years.
The Islamic Military Alliance he is supposed to head is a phantom organisation, certainly non-existent on the ground but, more alarmingly, existing not even on paper. Before Saudi Arabia’s all-powerful chequebook diplomacy needy Muslim nations defer, and as rich experience tells us none is more permanently in need than the Islamic world’s sole nuclear power, proud possessor of missiles with reaches near and far, known also in more heady moments as the Fortress of Islam. But deference is one thing, actual commitment something else.
Even those most ready to incline their heads before the Defenders of the Two Holy Mosques6, the Harmain Sharifain, will demur, and start coughing with fingers on their mouths, when it comes to actually putting troops under Saudi command, even if the troops are headed by Reichsmarschall Raheel Sharif, Nishan-e-Imtiaz, etc.
There are any number of Muslim countries that would not like to let down the Saudis verbally. But no one is rushing in with troops and equipment. So what Afrika Korps, what desert army, will Gen Raheel be commanding?
More to the point, are we so dumb in Pakistan that we don’t understand what’s happening in the Middle East and the nature of the wars raging there? The Saudis say that their phantom defence alliance – comprising 34 nations, which is another surprise – is to fight terrorism. One wishes it were that simple.
Terrorism lies in the eyes of the beholder. It means one thing to the Saudis, the Qataris and the Emiraatis; quite a different thing to Iran, Syria, Hezbollah and Russia. Along the battle-lines drawn today in a region that is burning, where societies stand destroyed and millions of refugees have been put on the march, one nation’s terrorists are another nation’s friends.
The Houthis in Yemen are terrorists in Saudi eyes. For Iran they are beleaguered allies deserving of help. In Syria, Saudi Arabia and Qatar are on the side of the anti-Assad forces. Iran and Hezbollah are Assad’s principal backers. Without their help he would not have survived. In Iraq, meanwhile, Iran and the government in Baghdad consider their enemy to be Daesh. For Saudi Arabia the main concern in Iraq is not the presence of Daesh but the dominance of the Shia element and the pro-Iranian tilt of the Baghdad government.
From all of which it becomes clear that far from there being a united Islamic front against terrorism, the Muslim world, as always, is divided from end to end. There are two coalitions in the Middle East today: one led by Saudi Arabia, the other by Iran, and never the twain shall meet.
So let not the Reichsmarscall, the ghazi general, kid himself or fool the Pakistani nation. If he goes on the no doubt extremely profitable but at bottom fool’s errand of commanding a force that does not exist, he will be going not as an emblem of unity, enhancing the honour of Pakistan, but as a partisan in a partisan setting, ending up doing Saudi bidding and serving Saudi interests…and reinforcing the unfortunate impression existing about Pakistan that for the right amount of recompense – let us avoid recourse to such crude terms as dollars – this country’s leading lights, its high and mighty, can be counted upon to do anything.
Still, the general is best judge of his own interest. If he thinks the move to the holy sands serves him best so be it. One more illusion shattered, that is all. And a hard lesson to armchair Stalinists: change doesn’t come just like that, and it certainly doesn’t come through any shortcuts. The way for it is long and we in Pakistan are not prepared to take it. We don’t have the stamina, we don’t have the will. We have just the talk and the empty yearning.
One other thing comes out from the ghazi’s expected move to the Holy Land. Whatever the sacrifices of officers and men in uniform, and their sacrifices have been great or reactionary militancy in Fata – threatening the foundations of Pakistan – would never have been pushed back, the Pakistan army remains a deeply conservative institution, almost genetically programmed to throw in its lot, when the chips are down, with the most reactionary tendencies in the wider world of Islam. From the Afghan ‘jihad’ to the choices made post-9/11 this defining proclivity has been fully on display.
Thank God we didn’t go into Yemen, as our brothers, warriors of the magical chequebooks, wanted us to. The general now seems to be making up for that lost opportunity.
The Tolstoyan question recurs: how much land does a man require? A three-star general, admiral or air marshal in the normal course of things here acquires – and legitimately enough, it’s all legal – so many plots to his name that should he so wish he could start a housing society of his own. Yet we see senior retired officers restless, itching for more profitable employment.
I’ve said it before but it bears repeating, the army should raise a monument to the Taliban. We sought not this war; the TTP forced it upon us. If the army is battle-hardened it is not out of choice but necessity. The higher echelons, however, have given up none of their old ways. You can see this from their housing colonies, the living style to which they have become accustomed. Do they invite comparisons with the high commands of legend: Prussian, Vietnamese, or even the Turkish under Mustafa Kemal?
Ah, the litmus test: would Mustafa Kemal have taken service under any crown?
Is there something wrong with the soil and water of Pakistan?
Email: bhagwal63@gmail.com
And, the author appears to be not understanding how much strategic footprints Pak is about to gain. Siyaset is all about taking calculated risks, and single-minded and painstaking efforts to pursue the goals. Moreover, he doesn't understand the tectonic shifts occurring in the geopolitics. It may be too much to ask from him to appreciate that it's all per PLANS & EXECUTIONS where no mortals have any say or share. Only HE is Ba'ki, every thing else is Fa'ni. Ahh Ga'fil folks Ahh!!!
R Wing
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Hello, sir!
You raise some very important questions that I myself have struggled with for a while now --- especially as I try to take part in projects that shatter the militant narrative. Having discussed this issue with those at the forefront of CT ops in Pakistan from various institutions, I realized that while we can keep killing militants, we can't stop the threat or the potential foot soldier recruitment till we kill the BS narrative that they have created.
I have come to the conclusion that while "Islam is Islam," it is also open to interpretation --- otherwise why would there be sects, sub-sects, fiqhs, etc. There are different rulings on the same issues from sect to sect, sub-sect to sub-sect, fiqh to fiqh and from scholar to scholar.
Therefore, in my opinion, I feel it is fair to say that there are interpretations of Islam that are definitely less tolerant than others (for example, the Wahabbi/Salafi approach, which 99% of Sunni militants follow --- and which includes the central pillar of takfeer, or declaring another Muslim a non-Muslim, a concept that is alien and not allowed in most other fiqhs). There are countless other examples --- from a woman's choice to marry without her parent's consent (again Hannafi rulings differ from other schools of thought) and so on.
The entire problem is that mullahs think there is only one approach and understanding of Islam. This is categorically false for the reasons mentioned above. I strongly feel this is the central issue in our fight against terror --- the govt/mil has failed to come up with a public counter-narrative that challenges the brainwashing being done on many of our young kids.
I hope you see what I mean.
I agree with you re: Saladin --- he was a man of great character and a very devout Muslim.
SoulSpokesman
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Gen RS is a professional soldier. He served Pak loyally and capably as a soldier, didn't stage a coup when he could have easily pulled it off and upon due date of retirement walked off into the sunset without a demur. Now he has taken a post retirement job in his area of core capability, why are we grudging him that?
Regards
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