Southern Han Chinese and their relationship with the Baiyue

[jkroo]

I talked of wet rice cultivation in red river delta 1,000 bc, while you...
okay, as you are a farmer pls enrich my knowledge of rice planting culture 12,000 years ago. I am always ready to learn.

Its not bad, right?

can you elaborate a bit more what you mean with

Our culture has the specific of containment and harmony which you never learn.
Our people always listen what you say and observe what you do.

no doubt, China made a lot of good things and contributed positively to the development of Vietnam, including the supports you mention during the wars against the foreign invaders. however, you destroyed all of these again. worse, the bad things outweigh the good ones. it may be better for all of us, if we both agree to build a highrise wall along the entire Sino-Vietnam border and separate the countries permanently.

Vietnam future lies in SE Asia. Many of us are really tired of the Chinese.

Look, you are so naive. You cant put your head in the sands. Welcome to 21st century. If you tired then have some rest. Its a nature. Dont hurry to jump out to defend something. Try hard to live happy.

 

[EastSea]

I never say Jiaozhi people is not your ancestor, I said they are not your true root understand? original Jiaozhi people is Tai not your Mon-Khmer root who came later and take over, then is start of Viet identity and culture

Dong Son have nothing to do with your Annams
In the second half of the twentieth century, the bronze drum became a symbol of “the antiquity of Việt nation.”
However, from the time that the people we refer to as the Việt started to record information about themselves until the present – a time period roughly equivalent to the thousand years of the second millennium AD – bronze drums were never part of the cultural lives of the Việt. Instead, it is people whom the Việt perceived to be different from themselves, and whom the Việt looked down upon, who employed bronze drums in their cultural lives.In any case, none of the details that Lê Tắc provided were his own. Instead, they can be found in earlier “Chinese” sources. Some people will argue that Lê Tắc probably wrote this way because he wrote this book when he was in “China,” but the nineteenth-century geographical text, the Đại Nam nhất thống chí 大南一統志, likewise cited “Chinese” sources to explain what bronze drums were.
So prior to the twentieth century, bronze drums, which are now the symbol of “the antiquity of the Việt nation,” were basically unknown to the Việt.


read here your language
This revised narrative challenges traditional concepts of the multi-millennial “survival” of the Vietnamese language,
suggesting instead a “birth” of Vietnamese, significantly not in the depths of pre-Chinese history but during and immediately following Annam’s long centuries of membership within the Chinese imperial order.
First, I argue that Annam witnessed a “language shift” among sectors of its elite population away from a local variety of Middle Chinese (spoken regionally), and towards the local, non-Chinese language of “Proto-Viet–Muong” (i.e. the immediate ancestor of the modern Vietnamese and Muong languages). This process of “language shift” radically transformed the grammar and vocabulary of Proto-Viet–Muong.
Applied to turn-of-the-millennium Annam, this case suggests that a population of Annamese Middle Chinese speakers shifted to Proto-Viet–Muong, thereby inducing a number of linguistic innovations that were subsequently imitated by the Proto-Viet–Muong community as a whole and thus “permanently established in the language”.
The arguments I have made here—the existence of a local dialect of Middle Chinese, its obsolescence in favour of Proto Viet–Muong, and the eventual emergence of a new language from among the hybridized dialects that followed—plainly challenge the notion of a multi-millennial “Vietnamese” identity. They strongly imply that a recognizable culture for the Vietnamese, like their language, formed during the first few centuries of independent kingship, rather than in a vague and distant, pre-Chinese era.

Dong Son culture is not related only to bronze Drum, it is a symbol of development of technology in ancient time.

Read my post above again: It could related to people were living in South East Asia.

In Vietnamese, we call such music instruments: Cồng, Chiêng, Trống. Such music instruments were made from Bronze.

reading an entry in Lê Tắc’s fourteenth-century Brief Treatise on An Nam (An Nam chí lược) in Section " Biên cảnh phục dịch" translated in to Enghlish: "Frontier Services" in the Chapter number 1.

Le tac has been described that (in the year 1,303 ACE) for the people in Vietnam, called the “Lạo Tử” (獠子) people who were living in border area of Vietnam as follow :

“They are fond of warring with enemies and they beat bronze drums. They value big ones. When a drum is first completed, they place it in a courtyard with wine and invite their fellow kind. Those who come fill [the courtyard] to the gates. The daughter of the notable takes a gold or silver hairpin and strikes the drum, after which she leaves it with the owner.”

Note that Vietnamese/Kinh people ís became separate ethnic from Mon/Muong people from 1,300 year ago.

Today in Vietnam, Muong people is use to bronze drum in his traditional festivals. (true Bronze drum "Trống Đồng" is expensive).

 

[yue10]

Got it with thanks.

I dont know where you are from for I use a mobile version and see no flags.

They seemed to be annoied and bullying.

I dont know the story but I know they do fabricate somthing to make them proud. So I point out they have delusions though they are free to do so.

Never mind friend. Though they claimed too much things and show their strength weakness exploid.

I am good at chinglish, right?

Just take it easy.

yes, yes, like I said I apologised for my uncivilised behaviours, sometimes the Annam blood is too strong for me to suppressed, delusions is perfect word for their race

I liked farmer people a lot of them don't got elitist mentality, I grew up on farm and maybe in the future also became farmer, your Chinglish good no need to worry

Dong Son culture is not related only to bronze Drum, it is a symbol of development of technology in ancient time.

Read my post above again: It could related to people were living in South East Asia.

In Vietnamese, we call such music instruments: Cồng, Chiêng, Trống. Such music instruments were made from Bronze.

reading an entry in Lê Tắc’s fourteenth-century Brief Treatise on An Nam (An Nam chí lược) in Section " Biên cảnh phục dịch" translated in to Enghlish: "Frontier Services" in the Chapter number 1.

Le tac has been described that (in 1,303 year ago) for the people in Vietnam, called the “Lạo Tử” (獠子) people who were living in border area of Vietnam as follow :

“They are fond of warring with enemies and they beat bronze drums. They value big ones. When a drum is first completed, they place it in a courtyard with wine and invite their fellow kind. Those who come fill [the courtyard] to the gates. The daughter of the notable takes a gold or silver hairpin and strikes the drum, after which she leaves it with the owner.”

Note that Vietnamese/Kinh people ís became separate ethnic from Mon/Muong people from 1,300 year ago.

Today in Vietnam, Muong people is use to bronze drum in his traditional festivals. (true Bronze drum is expensive).

Dong Son is just bronze culture, the drum is the height and symbolic of the culture so how can belong to you when you got no idea about it? the Muong is heavily influenced by Tai cultures, I already speak the dude Rejoice about their name came from Tai people Muang, ask him

look here Zhuang people
Guangxi Zhaung Autonomous Region is honored as “the hometown of bronze drum”, which is the traditional cultural relic of Zhuang ethnic group. Bronze drum was originally used as ritual implement and musical instrument, and later on was developed into a symbol of power. Bronze drum is drawn in the patterns of sun like, feather-shaped person, aigrette, water wave, circles and elephant-eye lines as well as the patterns of frogs and teals, etc. The Zhuang people regard frog as the “son of the thunder king in the heaven” and there was a legend of “the frog up in the palace”. They have the “Frog Festival”. The frogs decorated on the surface of Bronze drum are the Zhuang’s symbol of totem and worship.

the spread of the drum just mean trade or possibly dispersion of Dong Son people after arrival of Chinese

why your Annams kept claim the drum belonged to you, what this girl talk about?
The Ngọc Lũ Drum, even dirt-logged and oxidized as it had been, was a thing of obvious beauty and value, and the men who rediscovered it knew that their ancestors had hidden it underground to protect it from being systematically destroyed. The Great Bronze Melting during the occupation of Ma is very well-documented. The men knew that this was a part of their ancient heritage, kept safe for them, under the ground where it could be hidden from plunderers and the ravages of time.
Đông Sơn Drums | Thoughts of a Taoist Babe
LOL, now suddenly 'the men knew that this was a part of their ancient heritage'

 

[Viet]

Dong Son culture is not related only to bronze Drum, it is a symbol of development of technology in ancient time.

Read my post above again: It could related to people were living in South East Asia.

In Vietnamese, we call such music instruments: Cồng, Chiêng, Trống. Such music instruments were made from Bronze.

reading an entry in Lê Tắc’s fourteenth-century Brief Treatise on An Nam (An Nam chí lược) in Section " Biên cảnh phục dịch" translated in to Enghlish: "Frontier Services" in the Chapter number 1.

Le tac has been described that (in the year 1,303 ACE) for the people in Vietnam, called the “Lạo Tử” (獠子) people who were living in border area of Vietnam as follow :

“They are fond of warring with enemies and they beat bronze drums. They value big ones. When a drum is first completed, they place it in a courtyard with wine and invite their fellow kind. Those who come fill [the courtyard] to the gates. The daughter of the notable takes a gold or silver hairpin and strikes the drum, after which she leaves it with the owner.”

Note that Vietnamese/Kinh people ís became separate ethnic from Mon/Muong people from 1,300 year ago.

Today in Vietnam, Muong people is use to bronze drum in his traditional festivals. (true Bronze drum "Trống Đồng" is expensive).

yue10 is a fcking idiot. he is nothing more than a clown. Waiting to see he jumps off the window to prove his superiority.

yes, yes, like I said I apologised for my uncivilised behaviours, sometimes the Annam blood is too strong for me to suppressed, delusions is perfect word for their race

I liked farmer people a lot of them don't got elitist mentality, I grew up on farm and maybe in the future also became farmer, your Chinglish good no need to worry

Dong Son is just bronze culture, the drum is the height and symbolic of the culture so how can belong to you when you got no idea about it? the Muong is heavily influenced by Tai cultures, I already speak the dude Rejoice about their name came from Tai people Muang, ask him

look here Zhuang people
Guangxi Zhaung Autonomous Region is honored as “the hometown of bronze drum”, which is the traditional cultural relic of Zhuang ethnic group. Bronze drum was originally used as ritual implement and musical instrument, and later on was developed into a symbol of power. Bronze drum is drawn in the patterns of sun like, feather-shaped person, aigrette, water wave, circles and elephant-eye lines as well as the patterns of frogs and teals, etc. The Zhuang people regard frog as the “son of the thunder king in the heaven” and there was a legend of “the frog up in the palace”. They have the “Frog Festival”. The frogs decorated on the surface of Bronze drum are the Zhuang’s symbol of totem and worship.

the spread of the drum just mean trade or possibly dispersion of Dong Son people after arrival of Chinese

why your Annams kept claim the drum belonged to you, what this girl talk about?
The Ngọc Lũ Drum, even dirt-logged and oxidized as it had been, was a thing of obvious beauty and value, and the men who rediscovered it knew that their ancestors had hidden it underground to protect it from being systematically destroyed. The Great Bronze Melting during the occupation of Ma is very well-documented. The men knew that this was a part of their ancient heritage, kept safe for them, under the ground where it could be hidden from plunderers and the ravages of time.
Đông Sơn Drums | Thoughts of a Taoist Babe
LOL, now suddenly 'the men knew that this was a part of their ancient heritage'

end your useless life, low iq idiot

 

[EastSea]

yes, yes, like I said I apologised for my uncivilised behaviours, sometimes the Annam blood is too strong for me to suppressed, delusions is perfect word for their race

I liked farmer people a lot of them don't got elitist mentality, I grew up on farm and maybe in the future also became farmer, your Chinglish good no need to worry

Dong Son is just bronze culture, the drum is the height and symbolic of the culture so how can belong to you when you got no idea about it? the Muong is heavily influenced by Tai cultures, I already speak the dude Rejoice about their name came from Tai people Muang, ask him

look here Zhuang people
Guangxi Zhaung Autonomous Region is honored as “the hometown of bronze drum”, which is the traditional cultural relic of Zhuang ethnic group. Bronze drum was originally used as ritual implement and musical instrument, and later on was developed into a symbol of power. Bronze drum is drawn in the patterns of sun like, feather-shaped person, aigrette, water wave, circles and elephant-eye lines as well as the patterns of frogs and teals, etc. The Zhuang people regard frog as the “son of the thunder king in the heaven” and there was a legend of “the frog up in the palace”. They have the “Frog Festival”. The frogs decorated on the surface of Bronze drum are the Zhuang’s symbol of totem and worship.

the spread of the drum just mean trade or possibly dispersion of Dong Son people after arrival of Chinese

why your Annams kept claim the drum belonged to you, what this girl talk about?
The Ngọc Lũ Drum, even dirt-logged and oxidized as it had been, was a thing of obvious beauty and value, and the men who rediscovered it knew that their ancestors had hidden it underground to protect it from being systematically destroyed. The Great Bronze Melting during the occupation of Ma is very well-documented. The men knew that this was a part of their ancient heritage, kept safe for them, under the ground where it could be hidden from plunderers and the ravages of time.
Đông Sơn Drums | Thoughts of a Taoist Babe
LOL, now suddenly 'the men knew that this was a part of their ancient heritage'

You are idiot. You don't know Vietnamese proverb:

"Con cóc là cậu ông trời.
Ai mà đánh nó thì trời đánh cho".

In English:

"The frog is a uncle of God,
if you hurt him, God shall punish you."

 

[yue10]

You are idiot. You don't know Vietnamese proverb:

"Con cóc là cậu ông trời.
Ai mà đánh nó thì trời đánh cho".

that's TOAD not frog

don't made edit, you know coc mean toad and ech mean frog

 

[EastSea]

that's TOAD not frog

don't made edit, you know coc mean toad and ech mean frog

The both animal with the same appearance for decoration, kid.

 

[yue10]

The both animal with the same appearance for decoration, kid.

now you just start lied again

look here
In addition to the bird motifs, there are also small three-dimentional animals on the face of some Dong Son (Shizhaishan) drums and other types of drums which archaeologists have argued are either frogs or toads (see Figure 5). Chinese scholars argued that they were frogs and explained them as decorations without special meaning,[47] or something related to the ceremony of rain-seeking, or the frog-worshipping custom of the ancient Yue people of southern China, a group believed to be related to the ancient Viet people.[48] Edward Schafer agreed that the animals were frogs, "for the drum embodied a frog spirit---that is a spirit of water and rain---and its voice was the booming rumble of the bullfrog." He retold a story of the Tang period recorded in a Chinese source to show that the drum could even take the form of a living frog. According to the story, a frog pursued by a person leaped into a hole, which turned out to be the grave of a Man (barbarian) chieftain containing a bronze drum with a rich green patina, covered with batrachian figures. The bronze drum was believed to be the reincarnation of the frog.[49] Vietnamese scholars initially agreed that the animals were frogs in the 1970s,[50] but later interpreted them as toads because "a widely known popular saying in Vietnam calls the toad 'the uncle of the heavenly god' and maintains that rain will inevitably fall when the toad raises his head and croaks.

LOL @ Annams professors first agreed then just made up lies as they go along

 

[EastSea]

Ngoc Lũ Bronze Drum found in Vietnam. There is no frogs

 

[Viet]

that's TOAD not frog

don't made edit, you know coc mean toad and ech mean frog

ha ha ha... I see you know a bit of Vietnamese. What are you: ếch or cóc?
I guess the latter. lol
you are a Khmer, right?

 

[yue10]

it's doesn't matter if don't got frog, Annams never claim drum as theirs until recently to make themselves look more advanced in ancient times

ha ha ha... I see you know a bit of Vietnamese. What are you: ếch or cóc?
I guess the latter. lol
you are a Khmer, right?

oh, so you calm down now?
I said already many times my parents is the Southern Viet, I never say anything good for Khmers but your Annams continually accused me as Khmer

 

[EastSea]

it's doesn't matter if don't got frog, Annams never claim drum as theirs until recently to make themselves look more advanced in ancient times


oh, so you calm down now?
I said already many times my parents is the Southern Viet, I never say anything good for Khmers but your Annams continually accused me as Khmer

Ngọc Lũ I là một trong những chiếc trống đồng Đông Sơn có kích thước to lớn, hình dáng cổ kính, tập trung hoa văn phong phú nhất, hiện được tàng trữ tại Bảo tàng Lịch sử Việt Nam.

Read more here, kid. Photos is from here.

Ngọc Lũ I – Wikipedia tiếng Việt

 

[Viet]

oh, so you calm down now?
I said already many times my parents is the Southern Viet, I never say anything good for Khmers but your Annams continually accused me as Khmer

no
if you are a Viet (I doubt it) then you should know the Viets hate the terms Annam or Annamese as it remembers to the periods of Chinese and French occupation. your parents failed having educated you. slap yourself hard in your face, idiot khmer!

 

[yue10]

Ngọc Lũ I là một trong những chiếc trống đồng Đông Sơn có kích thước to lớn, hình dáng cổ kính, tập trung hoa văn phong phú nhất, hiện được tàng trữ tại Bảo tàng Lịch sử Việt Nam.

Read more here, kid. Photos is from here.

Ngọc Lũ I – Wikipedia tiếng Việt

I copy paste
Annams never claim drum as theirs until recently to make themselves look more advanced in ancient times (as in modern era)

no
if you are a Viet (I doubt it) then you should know the Viets hate the terms Annam or Annamese as it remembers to the periods of Chinese and French occupation. your parents failed having educated you. slap yourself hard in your face, idiot khmer!

there you go again with your abusive mentality, I grew up on farm, I only attend Sunday school learn Viet for a little over a year, no one teach me nothing about history, 6 month ago I don't know nothing history until I start noticing on different forum your Annams kept speaking history everyday and also genetic so I go to learn little bit and realise you spread too many lies, I didn't hate your race but just tried to stop you lying so much

well, no duh Annam is derogatory but I loved to annoyed your Annams got wrong and murderous mentality

 

[Viet]

I copy paste
Annams never claim drum as theirs until recently to make themselves look more advanced in ancient times (as in modern era)

there you go again with your abusive mentality, I grew up on farm, I only attend Sunday school learn Viet for a little over a year, no one teach me nothing about history, 6 month ago I don't know nothing history until I start noticing on different forum your Annams kept speaking history everyday and also genetic so I go to learn little bit and realise you spread too many lies, I didn't hate your race but just tried to stop you lying so much

well, no duh Annam is derogatory but I loved to annoyed your Annams got wrong and murderous mentality

just keep promoting your stupidity, khmer boy...so 6 months ago you knew nothing about history, and now you know everything. on what forums did you learn history?