Sophistication of Indian tech is now sufficient to build a Rafale

[Gessler]

Utilizing the resources which they have got. Atleast they are not sitting idle in cash strapped situation.

What? Being a low-budget air force got them a low-budget plane. Simple.

Us being a medium-budget air force then got us a medium-budget plane like MKI and also allowed to pursue
development of Tejas program.

As we turn into a high-budget air force, we start getting high-budget planes like Rafale, FGFA and allow to pursue
programs like Tejas Mk-2, AMCA and AURA.

Think about what IAF has done in past 20 years??? (SU-MKI was a political decision no credit to IAF).

WHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT !!! That's it - you've gone straight to my ignore list.

 

[Jackdaws]

I see so many Indian posters who are fan boys of Dassault Rafale.

This shows they have no confidence in their own engineers and sientists. Which is really sad to see.

Aerospace industry and capacity of India is now among the best.

So do not waste money on buying 100s of Dassault Rafales. By a squadran or two.

Save the hard earned billions and build your own.

Sure it may take a bit of time, but it will be yours.


And above all, it will give high tech jobs to 1000s of Indians instead of exporting them to EU>

Umm - doesn't the Rafale come with a technology transfer agreement to build a sizeable number in India itself?

 

[Raul_AD]

WHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT !!! That's it - you've gone straight to my ignore list.

Thanks for that I appreciate your effort.

 

[Jungibaaz]

Infallible logic implies having full knowledge of the matter - which even many in India cannot be having (about MMRCA/FGFA).

Infallible logic can only be applied to the most simplistic of things. The OP was implying that if the money and effort allocated to the Rafale deal is spent, it is spent with an opportunity cost forgone of that money and effort being put elsewhere, that's an falsifiable fact, that's like 1+1=2 so to speak.

However, I don't claim that the OP knows everything about Rafale or that any of us Pakistani members here are even the slightest bit qualified to make the decision.

Maybe YOU would...but would PAF and GoP? But either way it's not like you have much choice beyond looking at Chinese
projects due to worsening relations with the West, so no wonder even if you decide to stick with JFT.

JF-17 for us was a no brainier, a similar project would definitely be the GoP/PA's choice, but all that is irrelevant to India's situation which is a lot more forgiving than ours.

Anyway, leave Pakistan and Jf-17 out of the discussion, I don't want this thread going off topic on my account.

Anyway - even in India the same formula of maximizing indigenous input is being/will be followed. Infact our
more developed industrial capabilities ensure than we can manufacture almost 80-85% of such aircraft within India.
But make no mistake, if we have the choice of getting our hands on a high-end, already developed platform which
has lots of scope for further development - we will take it. Anyone who's in our position would.

Forgive me for saying this ignorantly and bluntly, I suspect you will see further delay with the current set up, and even further delay when it comes to local production, it's my guess.

I will offer a much bigger explanation in the morning if you want (it's 1AM here now.)

Don't bother too much with the technical aspects of it, it's all already acknowledged here and understood.

 

[sancho]

It doesn't always need to take that long. But fine, let's say 15 years. An AF that has self sufficiency as it's goals plans a little further ahead. We planned for the JF-17 since the mid 90's, 15 years on, we had it. MMRCA was announced in 2007, it's already been 7 years, perhaps realistically another 2 years before the final arrangements are made and the first batches delivered. Besides, you tell me, what's the time frame for local production, please do enlighten me, add that on from 2007 and tell me if you don't get a pretty little double digit figure.

The delays are more than unfortunate but there is a difference however if you compare it with JF 17 procurement and PAFs requirements. JF 17 was needed replace several older fighters that needs to be phased out soon and by the lack of funds, there hardly was an alternative to it and to a fast procurement. IAF needed to replace fighters too, but if we had the same limitation of options, we would had gone with M2Ks in the initial MRCA competition and would had added it most likely even in higher numbers now than JF 17. The change to M-MRCA was then a calculated delay, knowing that the capability gap in IAF, can be covered by additional MKIs and the upgrades of Mig 29, Mirage 2000, Jags and by that time even 2 Mig 27 squads, with the aim to get more industrial advantages. Not to mention that we had the LCA under development anyway, which at least in the long run was another option too. So IAF had far more options to cover it's requirements than PAF, while Indian government saw the potential of the deal and I'm sure if your government would had got such a chance, they would had opted for it too. The simple fact that we had this competition, created so much interest of foreign companies to India, the Indian defence market and even Indian industry that still is doing babysteps. Based on this interest, even the losing vendors still highly participate in India with the industry. Be it on licence productions, JVs or other projects, so that alone was a booster.

 

[saurav]

That's your assumption, I would point back the fact that on all important deals or development where ToT is crucial it's often French companies that wins or are prefered. Rafale in MMRCA, shakti engine for Dhruv, LCH and LUH, Maitri SAM based on MICA ToT, the Samtel Thales JV that turned out to be very promising, Scorpene, Cheetak and Cheetal helicopters that we were licence producing for years, just as Jaguars and so on. So we do choose French companies often because of their rediness to provide techs and with less restrictions, the downside are the costs, but then again, we get what we want in return.

But all these deals still did not stop them from charging over $40 Mill. to upgrade one Mirage. They did not think twice before jacking up price for developing Shakti for LUH making the whole schedule go haywire.

We can not make a single Scorpene ourselves. Maitri is gone for good. We have been producing Chetak-Cheetal but cant produce a similar Chopper ourselves.

Rafale is getting inducted because its L1 not because the other party was not willing to provide similar TOT.

Samtel-Thales is a JV between two Pvt. companies and such JVs should be encouraged so that we can use these systems in our own LCA which we can produce in any number without shelling out billions to France.

 

[saurav]

Then go for Single engine to Aircraft to fill in much needed flying hours, why go for another Twin Engine???

Tejas is good agst F-16 and J-10A of china (J-10B (due to IIR seekars) can be looked after by SU-MKI).

Shelling out >20 Bill for 126 planes is simply too much for me. Its very difficult to justify such costly plane and then saying that MKI's life cycle costs is 3-4 times more than Rafale. The reality is no one knows exactly how much will this plane cost in its life time. Every hour of its flight costs ~15 K Dollars. So saying MKI costs 3-4 times more than this in life cycle costs seems too far fetched.

 

[Gessler]

Infallible logic can only be applied to the most simplistic of things. The OP was implying that if the money and effort allocated to the Rafale deal is spent, it is spent with an opportunity cost forgone of that money and effort being put elsewhere, that's an falsifiable fact, that's like 1+1=2 so to speak.

I understand his intention, but when actual knowledge of the matter is applied to the said equation, it becomes somewhat
pointless. The IAF needs aircraft with which to stay a cut above it's potential adversaries in quality (against PLAAF/PAF) and
in quantity as well (against PAF).

No matter how you look at it, India cannot produce aircraft equivalent to the European ones atleast until the
next decade (the Tejas Mk-2 by 2018-2020 will be somewhat on par with the Gripen-NG though). But the
squadron numbers are already dropping and no one is ready to wait for the indigenous industry to deliver while
better & more capable aircraft are available with high levels of ToT, local production line, and partnership offers
in future developments, from foreign sources.

It's like how China is spending money on buying new AL-31Fs instead of spending that money on further
developing WS-10 versions - cuz they don't have the time. For sure indigenous industry will ultimately be the
answer for India, but until the industry is ready to undertake such projects, foreign stuff will be bought.

Look at the warships for example - there was a time when the best we could do was to implement some
design changes to Soviet ships to make them suit our needs better. Now almost every major warship for IN
is designed & built in India. The components of the warships are being further indigenized at a steady rate.

Now we're selling naval ships to Vietnam & Nigeria and earning hundreds of millions. Such massive industrial
development takes a lot of time, but rest assured it will be done in due time and everyone is working toward that goal.

Anyway, leave Pakistan and Jf-17 out of the discussion, I don't want this thread going off topic on my account.

Sure.

Forgive me for saying this ignorantly and bluntly, I suspect you will see further delay with the current set up, and even further delay when it comes to local production, it's my guess.

You're not being ignorant at all when you say there will be delays - infact everyone with knowledge of the matter has foreseen it already.

 

[Gessler]

Shelling out >20 Bill for 126 planes is simply too much for me. Its very difficult to justify such costly plane and then saying that MKI's life cycle costs is 3-4 times more than Rafale. The reality is no one knows exactly how much will this plane cost in its life time. Every hour of its flight costs ~15 K Dollars. So saying MKI costs 3-4 times more than this in life cycle costs seems too far fetched.

Read Abingdonboy's previous replies to Jungibaaz.

 

[Raul_AD]

Shelling out >20 Bill for 126 planes is simply too much for me. Its very difficult to justify such costly plane and then saying that MKI's life cycle costs is 3-4 times more than Rafale. The reality is no one knows exactly how much will this plane cost in its life time. Every hour of its flight costs ~15 K Dollars. So saying MKI costs 3-4 times more than this in life cycle costs seems too far fetched.

Bhai it is very much difficult to explain this to people. They are hell bent to get Rafale at what ever the cost be.

 

[MilSpec]

off course, the next gen Indian version will be less capable.

But at least the step in the right direction.

if you buy Rafale now, India will be robbed of money and chances to refine its own industry and products.

One Word "Balance"

 

[sancho]

But all these deals still did not stop them from charging over $40 Mill. to upgrade one Mirage. They did not think twice before jacking up price for developing Shakti for LUH making the whole schedule go haywire.

Just as any businessman does it, the Russian asked for higher prices for additional A50s, the Israelis for additional Phalcon systems.

We have been producing Chetak-Cheetal but cant produce a similar Chopper ourselves.

Dhruv, LCH, LUH? If there is a good field in the Indian aero sector it's the helicopter side and that largly based on French / German support.

Samtel-Thales is a JV between two Pvt. companies and such JVs should be encouraged so that we can use these systems in our own LCA which we can produce in any number without shelling out billions to France.

I am all for using such JV or even better co-developments, but that still doesn't make LCA complient to the requirements of IAF. To be honest, after the next upgrade the MKI will have such a high content of Indian parts, that I would love to take more of them over LCAs, since it combines both, capability and indigenous developments. Same reason why I would prefer developing an indigenous AESA and Kaveri engine for a capable Mig 29K, rather than a modest platform like N-LCA, not to mention FGFA over AMCA for IAF. Why not take the best we can get and make it better with our already gained skills, instead of wasting time and money for an indigenous development, that serves nothing but pride? However, we can't afford too many heavy class fighters and that's where LCA and MMRCA come in.

 

[UKBengali]

It's like how China is spending money on buying new AL-31Fs instead of spending that money on further
developing WS-10 versions - cuz they don't have the time.

Where did get this information from?

China is using AL-31 on the legacy fighters(J-10/SU-27 and SU-30) and WS-10X series on newer fighters like J-11B and J-16.

As China phases out the aircraft it brought from Russia and those designed with Russian engines, it will simply have
no more need for Russian engines anymore

 

[saurav]

Read Abingdonboy's previous replies to Jungibaaz.

I have read his post. And I am sorry to say its full of speculations as well. Until the deal is signed, no one can claim that the whole package will come in $16Bill. If Brazil's acquisition of Gripen is considered, we can easily guess that 126 Rafales with Spares, "100%" TOT, Training and weapons will certainly cost more than than, much more than that. And if last few deals with France is any indication, we can be certain that by the time Rafale enters IAF, we will be shelling out even more.

Not to forget the TOT which will come with this will be as useful in developing MCA as MKI has been in developing LCA.

 

[Gessler]

Where did get this information from?

China is using AL-31 on the legacy fighters(J-10/SU-27 and SU-30) and WS-10X series on newer fighters like J-11B and J-16.

As China phases out the aircraft it brought from Russia and those designed with Russian engines, it will simply have
no more need for Russian engines anymore

Almost ~300 new engines were ordered as recently as 2011 for MKK/J-11 variants as well as J-10 variants.

Big New Chinese Order for Russian Fighter Engines | Aviation International News

Multiple production-standard J-10Bs have already been seen with AL-31s as well...but let's not deviate from the thread.