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Soldiers killed in action are not martyrs. ‘Martyr’ has religious overtones, writes Karan Thapar

Hinduism doesn't have the concept of Shahadat, it's a purely Islamic concept.

Not that religious mumbo-jumbo has any relevance to me, but Hinduism does have such a concept. It is called "veergati". The Rajputs swear by it. At one point they used to be as eager to die in battle as your average Jihadi today.
 
@gslv mk3 @A.P. Richelieu R @lightoftruth

You don't even have any understanding what you are talking about.

It is true that every religion and empire has its own way of honouring their brave. Those who give their life saving the motherland, king or otherwise. This is to make an example for the next generations.

The term "SHAHADAT" is unique and only specific to Islam. The meaning of this is that an individual has given his life to testify the oneness of ALLAH (Now! ALLAH does not exist in any other religion - does it?). This is why it is called SHAHADAT (the literal meaning is TO TESTIFY). This (life) is the ultimate sacrifice a human can give, and it SHAHADAT only and only if it is in the way of ALLAH and to implement ALLAH's order. Now tell me how does this concept can ever be consistent with Hinduism?

The situation with Christianity or Judaism is different. Like Islam, Christianity and Judaism are also the Abrahmic religions. Hence the philosophy, orders and concepts come from the same, and one, source - ALLAH, the creator. Israelites fought wars with their Prophets. Those wars were jihads and hence those killed in those wars were SHAHEED (i.e., they died to testify the oneness of ALLAH).
Hazrat Issa (Jesus) never fought a war. However, he had the Shariah of Moses and hence those who fought wars for the implementation of Shariah would be considered SHAHEED (although I am not aware of any such battles after the time of Hazrat Issa on this planet).

@Zarvan @Kaptaan
 
Vedic Aryan invasion/destruction. Old Gods expired, new Gods made.
Whatever the case, Caucasian IVCers did not move to tropical India and become black mallus. That's as credible as Caucasian ancient Egyptians turning black Sudanese.

But you Pakistanis are the "Flag Bearer" of CAUCASIAN GENES in South Asia. Who destroyed "Indus Valley Civilization".

But as per some Posters PAKISTANIS DIRECT ARE DECEDENTS OF "INDUS VALLEY CIVILIZATION".

Better you People decide between your selves who you are ??? "Decedents of Indus Valley Civilization" or "Aryans carrying CAUCASIAN GENES".

WHAT A CONFUSED SOCIETY!
 
Okay I am going guys. I annoyed some mod here - We get shafted in Indian forums, We get shafted in Western forums and we even get shafted in Pakistani forums. Being Pakistan can hard.

What say you @PAKISTANFOREVER ? Chin up and carry on?



As long as our beautiful race lives I'm always happy with my chin and other protruding parts always up high.....lol..

Hey @PAKISTANFOREVER Gangias defeated me. They wasted 5 minutes of my life. Got to go. And don't ever forget. This is a war between Indus and Ganga. It has been going on under differant guises for 1,000s of years. Never shall the twain meet. Indus is the mighty royal father. The birther of civilizations. The cradle of human civilization.

@Sinopakfriend You have my email. Keep in contact.


There are probably more Gangalanders here on PDF than Pakistanis........lol.......:lol:
 
Good. Stay on your side of the desert. Miniscule river? Anytime time. Indus was the cradle of human civilization. Ganga is a latrine. To even compare both is affront to the noble Indus.

You not replied a single query. on Subject "How Arabs got Knowledge of "HINDSA" from "Indus Valley Civilization".

But "Indus is Cradle of Civilization" Which died out in 3000BC due to "DESERTIFICATION".

When Asked "WHAT CIVILIZATION SURVIVED IN DESERT VALLEY AFTER DEMISE OF "INDUS VALLEY CIVILIZATION" you were not able to mention EVEN A SINGLE EXAMPLE OF THAT".

HOW CAN A "DEAD" CIVILIZATION CAN BE "CRADLE OF CIVILIZATION".
 
Lol, and the 'Golden Age of India' happened way back in 4-6th centuries, which is several centuries before any Islamic invasion.

Chess is said to have originated in this period, where its early form in the 6th century was known as caturaṅga, which translates as "four divisions [of the military]" – infantry, cavalry, elephantry, and chariotry – represented by the pieces that would evolve into the modern pawn, knight, rook, and bishop, respectively. Doctors also invented several medical instruments, and even performed operations. The Indian numerals which were the first positional base 10 numeral systems in the world originated from Gupta India. The ancient Gupta text Kama Sutra by the Indian scholar . Aryabhata, a noted mathematician-astronomer of the Gupta period proposed that the earth is round and rotates about its own axis. He also discovered that the Moon and planets shine by reflected sunlight. Instead of the prevailing cosmogony in which eclipses were caused by pseudo-planetary nodes Rahu and Ketu, he explained eclipses in terms of shadows cast by and falling on Earth.

And Indian Mathematics. Do that need an introduction?

Clothing, eh..

The Indus Valley civilization started cultivating cotton by 2500 BCE. Cotton was mentioned in Hindu hymns in 1500 BCE.

Herodotus, an ancient Greek historian, mentions Indian cotton in the 5th century BCE as "a wool exceeding in beauty and goodness that of sheep." When Alexander the Great invaded India, his troops started wearing cotton clothes that were more comfortable than their previous woolen ones. Strabo, another Greek historian, mentioned the vividness of Indian fabrics, and Arrian told of Indian–Arab trade of cotton fabrics in 130 CE. Egyptians grew and spun cotton from 6–700 CE


And should I even say anything about Mathematics ?

The functions sine and cosine can be traced to the jyā and koti-jyā functions used in Gupta period Indian astronomy (Aryabhatiya, Surya Siddhanta), via translation from Sanskrit to Arabic and then from Arabic to Latin.
  • French mathematician Pierre Simon Laplace (1749–1827) wrote:


"It is India that gave us the ingenuous method of expressing all numbers by the means of ten symbols, each symbol receiving a value of position, as well as an absolute value; a profound and important idea which appears so simple to us now that we ignore its true merit, but its very simplicity, the great ease which it has lent to all computations, puts our arithmetic in the first rank of useful inventions, and we shall appreciate the grandeur of this achievement when we remember that it escaped the genius of Archimedes and Apollonius, two of the greatest minds produced by antiquity."
Kahe do kaudi ki logo se muh lagate ho. Let him live in his own lala land.
 
Better you People decide between your selves who you are ??? "Decedents of Indus Valley Civilization" or "Aryans carrying CAUCASIAN GENES".

LOL you dalit can't even tell the difference between the terms Aryans and Caucasians. Let me educate you a bit - Aryan was a culture, Caucasian is a race -- both Vedic Aryans and IVC were Caucasians by race. (E.g. a Romanian and a Syrian are both Caucasians, but different gene pool and culture!)

Don't feel like wasting time discussing with dumb dalits.
 
The easternmost part of the Caucasian civilized world (South Europe, Middle East, West Asia) was the Persian satrapy of Sindh (Indus).

Beyond Indus (rest of Indian peninsula and beyond) was the UNCIVILIZED WORLD. So you got it the other way around, lol! You must be from a lower caste with that level of education?

LOL you dalit can't even tell the difference between the terms Aryans and Caucasians. Let me educate you a bit - Aryan was a culture, Caucasian is a race -- both Vedic Aryans and IVC were Caucasians by race. (E.g. a Romanian and a Syrian are both Caucasians, but different gene pool and culture!)

Don't feel like wasting time discussing with dumb dalits.



Bhai Tu Rahne he de!! Tere Bas ka nahi hai.
 
So the arabic word shahid did not exist in arabic before Islam?

You are Hindu-stani.
do you really think you are qualified to debate this ?

Please brother don't disrespect fallen men in uniform, As i said many times soldiers don't hate soldiers, they gave their life for their country in the line of duty.

Condemn those who force them to kill innocent either in Kashmir or in Punjab.

Not sure where the disrespect was from, but I agree with your argument.

Punjab is more fertile than any other region
it has better weather
more water,
more man power than all the others combined,

yet, It is punjab that will fight on behalf of other smaller states,
and it is punjab that will suffer for the smaller states.
 
It is enough to read this thread to understand that shaheed and shahadat does
not translate well into martyr.
English speaking persons see the talk about Martyrdom as ridiculous, and degrading to the concept.
Better then to chose Your own term to get respect.
I do not claim to know what those terms should be, I leave this to You.
US patriots honour those in Military Service but use a completely different terminology.
In Quran, 22:58 God states that He will shower these believers with good provisions, not because they were killed, but because they strove for the cause of God.

Many often wonder what drives one to become a martyr. There are actually many reasons. However, in light of a special type of "martyr," we need to make a distinction between "martyr" and "Shaheed" (an Islamic term). When translators relay to us the word "Shaheed", they usually translate it as "Martyr." This is not quite accurate. In the English language, as well as other languages, there exists no special word to describe the exact meaning of "Shaheed."
A martyr is one who decides to give up his life for whatever cause he serves or to uphold his principles and honour. Maybe he wishes to go down in history as a hero. Maybe he feels very passionate about his country or his philosophy that he would risk his life for it. Some martyrs do die for their religion. Some risk their lives to uphold truth and justice. A martyr has many reasons for which he may risk his life.
However, the term "Shaheed" is only applied to those who sacrifice their lives for Allah's (God's) cause. They have no fear; they only fear Allah and want to obey Him and to serve Him. They realize that their lives belong to Allah, the One who created them, so it is a gift and we should not be so selfish about it. To obey Allah and to implement what He has commanded (truth, justice and liberty) might mean the loss of their loves. Their lover for Allah motivates them to sacrifice the precious gift of life. They are assured of a great reward in the end for their unselfish act. Their focus is on the next life and on pleasing Allah.
In some cases, people have translate, or named, "Shaheed" as "suicide" bomber". This is such an ugly term. A Muslim knows that suicide is prohibited and that Allah will punish them for it; it is like murder, even though one would be killing one's self. A Shaheed has no desire to die for the sake of escaping life. He loves life. A Muslim should want to continue living and never even wish he were dead because maybe his life could serve the purpose of Allah and he could continue doing good deeds. A Shaheed decides when he goes off to fight for Allah's cause that he is not going to fear death. His attitude is to submit to whatever Allah has chosen for him, and he will accept the outcome. He would prefer not to die and leave his family, but at the same time he almost looks forward to the sacrifice because of the great reward he'll receive form Allah. He knows he'll be in Paradise forever. He doesn't even fear the pain of death because Prophet Muhammad SallalLahu Alayhi Wasallam has told the Believers that at the time a Shaheed dies, he will not feel the pain; this is the mercy of Allah. The pain will be similar to a bee's sting.
However, in order to earn the title of Shaheed one must have the correct Niat (intention). In Islam intention is important behind every action in the religion. The only One who really knows the true intention of a person is Allah, for He sees their heart and knows their mind. Thus, the reward will rest upon the intention of the person. The Shaheed must have in his intention to risk his life only for Allah and not for anyone else. It can't be for his own ego. It can't be for the title of "hero". It can't be for revenge, for Allah will truly take care of the evildoers. It must be to serve the purpose of Allah and to uphold truth, justice, and liberty as well as to fight against all types of oppression.
Allah states in the Qur'an that "Those who believe, and suffer exile and strive with might and main, in Allah's cause, with their goods and their persons, have the highest rank in the sight of Allah: They are the people who will achieve (salvation)" (9: 20)

An incentive to be a Shaheed is found in the Hadeeth that states: "No one who enters Paradise will want to come back to the world and have anything on the earth except the 'Shaheed.'. He will wish to return to the world and be killed ten times because of the honour he sees" (Bukhari and Muslim).
We can understand why a Muslim is happy to sacrifice his life. He gains great reward in Paradise as well as honour. We see so many who've died under the hands of occupiers, tyrants and barbarians. They fought in defence, but they also fought to uphold truth, liberty, justice and their religion. Many are honoured as a Shaheed, but only Allah knows their true intentions.
 
@gslv mk3 @A.P. Richelieu R @lightoftruth

You don't even have any understanding what you are talking about.

It is true that every religion and empire has its own way of honouring their brave. Those who give their life saving the motherland, king or otherwise. This is to make an example for the next generations.

The term "SHAHADAT" is unique and only specific to Islam. The meaning of this is that an individual has given his life to testify the oneness of ALLAH (Now! ALLAH does not exist in any other religion - does it?). This is why it is called SHAHADAT (the literal meaning is TO TESTIFY). This (life) is the ultimate sacrifice a human can give, and it SHAHADAT only and only if it is in the way of ALLAH and to implement ALLAH's order. Now tell me how does this concept can ever be consistent with Hinduism?

The situation with Christianity or Judaism is different. Like Islam, Christianity and Judaism are also the Abrahmic religions. Hence the philosophy, orders and concepts come from the same, and one, source - ALLAH, the creator. Israelites fought wars with their Prophets. Those wars were jihads and hence those killed in those wars were SHAHEED (i.e., they died to testify the oneness of ALLAH).
Hazrat Issa (Jesus) never fought a war. However, he had the Shariah of Moses and hence those who fought wars for the implementation of Shariah would be considered SHAHEED (although I am not aware of any such battles after the time of Hazrat Issa on this planet).

@Zarvan @Kaptaan

And IF You had bothered to read what I wrote, You would have noticed that
I did not comment about Hinduism.
I agreed with the proposed Indian view that a soldier beeing killed in war,
is not really a martyr.

Muslims may choose to honour soldiers fighting for Islam.
Still not Martyrdom, and should not be called as such.

Please do not drag Jesus into this.
Not only did he not fight war, he was against wars.
When he was arrested by the Romans, he did not want violent resistance.
He also insisted on if someone smashed him in the face,
the proper reaction is to turn the cheek, to give the perpetrator a second chance.

Soldiers become soldiers with the intention to break the Law of Moses.
What part of "Thou shalt not kill" you fail to understand?
Soldiers are PUNISHED by their experience.
70 years after the end of WW2 Soldiers fighting a JUST war against Nazism,
still wake up screaming from nightmares.

The idea that soldiers, breaking the law of Moses, will be rewarded, I find ludicrous.
 

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