Slow poisoned academia?

[jaibi]

Yes but the MUSLIMS (not sure why all you people love to say Arabs) are the founding fathers of the FOUNDATIONS of many fields..maybe you do not understand the word foundation...it basically means that they got it right and paved the basics...Greeks like Pythagoras and others are the founding fathers in their own field...and they have been credited but when it comes to Muslims you people get an instant allergic reaction which is very obvious!! Even google will whip you good
List of Islamic scholars described as father or founder of a field
here!! List of Islamic scholars described as father or founder of a field - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And you know this because you went back into the past and interviewed them right....

And very few even go Irani scientist or Iraqi or Syrian...they just say Muslim!


DEAL WITH IT!

Epistemologically, talon, knowledge is found not really created. For example Freud us considered the father of psychology or Wundt of experimental psychology but saying so ignores the huge contributions of previous scholars to the field which includes.many Arab Muslims. Such terms are arbitrary.

Though no one can deny their contributions but knowledge is not really personal property. It is not static. Yes, we found great stuff but a couple of centuries have passed it.s time to move on from past glories and look for future accomplishments.

 

[Contrarian]

Yes but the MUSLIMS (not sure why all you people love to say Arabs) are the founding fathers of the FOUNDATIONS of many fields..maybe you do not understand the word foundation...it basically means that they got it right and paved the basics...Greeks like Pythagoras and others are the founding fathers in their own field...and they have been credited but when it comes to Muslims you people get an instant allergic reaction which is very obvious!! Even google will whip you good
List of Islamic scholars described as father or founder of a field
here!! List of Islamic scholars described as father or founder of a field - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thats because I have had the pleasure of Islamists spouting crap about imagined achievements of other Islamists!

All in an effort to bring fake/false glory and show it as some kind of super advanced civilization simultaneously attempting to imply others were living in stone ages.

For example, in the very first list - the first name of Abu al-Qasim al-Zahrawi, as the father of operative surgery is listed.
Yet Sushruta Samhita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
We had a damned book on surgery in 600BC.

There are literally hundreds of such cases.

And you know this because you went back into the past and interviewed them right....

And very few even go Irani scientist or Iraqi or Syrian...they just say Muslim!
DEAL WITH IT!

Because I have been very fortunate to come into contact with a lot of Iranians(not Iraqi or Syrians) who all/unequivocally were very well read on their history and claimed sole credits. They didnt throw it in the air in the name of Muslims thereby allowing others - like Pakistani's or Malaysians or xyz - to take credits for their work. And apparently thats how it is for all Iranians.

 

[jaibi]

we are civil if someone's misunderstandings does not equal to someone being labelled false claim...I am yet to use such a word against anyone coz I dont pride myself as the all knowledgeable one!




That is why I talked about Oxford and Cambridge! I have been to Cambridge and know a little of their history and how everyone knows of what the monks and priest did there! Its no secret no idea why gora worshipers (even the common gora addresses it) cant see past it

It was the same mindset which kept the books to tell the students that the earth was flat even years after it was proven to be round....

But talon the main problem is that the cambridge guys moved.forward we migrate from one authority to another. My philosophy class was attacked the teacher was beaten for q course named 'Problem of God' which was named as the word was used purely in logic terms but the religious fanatics could not bother to think. The staff did nothing out of fear. That's where we are!

 

[Dubious]

Epistemologically, talon, knowledge is found not really created. For example Freud us considered the father of psychology or Wundt of experimental psychology but saying so ignores the huge contributions of previous scholars to the field which includes.many Arab Muslims. Such terms are arbitrary.

Though no one can deny their contributions but knowledge is not really personal property. It is not static. Yes, we found great stuff but a couple of centuries have passed it.s time to move on from past glories and look for future accomplishments.

dont you people learn foundations of your fields? We do and we cant just move on from great discoveries way past their times!!

I mean it is the foundation which you need to build upon...it is like the solid ground then you can lay the bricks to the foundations...if you have a solid foundation then you no need to worry about the house (or in this case theory/ hypothesis/ experiment) collapsing or backfiring.

As a geneticist we give the PRIEST founder Gregor Mendel the founding father name though some other Greeks did good work in the fields but each of their ideas had loop holes while till date we use MENDELIAN LAWS! Its been about a century and yet no one has been able to re-write his laws although some laws of basic pipeline of genetics is being questioned but not his laws! THAT is the greatness of a founding father THAT you people wish to ignore? you sure you guys are in the right thread for academia when you ignore the basics of it?!

Thats because I have had the pleasure of Islamists spouting crap about imagined achievements of other Islamists!

All in an effort to bring fake/false glory and show it as some kind of super advanced civilization simultaneously attempting to imply others were living in stone ages.

For example, in the very first list - the first name of Abu al-Qasim al-Zahrawi, as the father of operative surgery is listed.
Yet Sushruta Samhita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
We had a damned book on surgery in 600BC.

There are literally hundreds of such cases.

Just browsed through SUSHRUTA wrote in Sanskrit which by 8th century was already translated into Arabic...Now maybe you missed the important point here:

"father of modern surgery" not classical surgery because mind you pasture was later after sushruta and he thought how to sterilize which was furthered later...I am sure maybe in 600 BC someone was cutting people but it apparently was not that successful or detailed or a foundation to MODERN surgery...apparently something was missing otherwise soo many people would still not be dying in Europe even as early as the 6th century AD!!

Because I have been very fortunate to come into contact with a lot of Iranians(not Iraqi or Syrians) who all/unequivocally were very well read on their history and claimed sole credits. They didnt throw it in the air in the name of Muslims thereby allowing others - like Pakistani's or Malaysians or xyz - to take credits for their work. And apparently thats how it is for all Iranians.

Are you sure? Just because you know SOME Iranians...does it mean the IRANIANS back then felt that way? They didnt SIGN anything calling it IRANIAN DISCOVERY! So I am sorry if it chokes you but if he she was a Muslim, Muslim founded it...you want to go into details sure go read the biography...

I dont know why you think academia is like something to OWN that one will STEAL CREDITS!

If their name is mentioned their biodata will tell the world which country they represent no need to be insecure!

 

[FaujHistorian]

I did not jump to any conclusion , I just pointed out a "technical" mistake in your assumption ..
why are you so much obsessed with word "Ayatullah" ??
And which "False Claim" are you talking about , You believe that Muslims did not contribute anything to science ?

Yaar.

I am giving equal space to two of the largest groups within Islam.

You have a problem with that?

FALSE claim by @Talon:

"Schools during the golden era of Islam around 1400 were way better than the founding of collages in Cambridge or Oxford.",

Please read the thread before getting in a discussion.

Thank you .

 

[Dubious]

But talon the main problem is that the cambridge guys moved.forward we migrate from one authority to another. My philosophy class was attacked the teacher was beaten for q course named 'Problem of God' which was named as the word was used purely in logic terms but the religious fanatics could not bother to think. The staff did nothing out of fear. That's where we are!

Well then THAT is sad! Now I have no idea why an uneducated Mullah be allowed in your philosophy class...the uni or collage should have made sure there was security esp when you have such topics to handle!

Secondly, I have yet to hear such a story from any of the Psychology schools in Punjab area...

@jaibi mind you I know many of the children dont know proper kalimah, dont know the Arabic alphabets dont know a thing about Islam yet they are not beaten...

@jaibi are you sure it was because of what the prof was teaching you and not a family feud or a debt collection?

Yaar.

I am giving equal space to two of the largest groups within Islam.

You have a problem with that?

yet you choke at the foundations?!

FALSE claim by @Talon:

"Schools during the golden era of Islam around 1400 were way better than the founding of collages in Cambridge or Oxford.",

Please read the thread before getting in a discussion.

Thank you .

I didnt know your knowledge on the foundations of certain fields was soo poor! Just because it is poor you do not label another as "false claim"

 

[FaujHistorian]

Yes but the MUSLIMS (not sure why all you people love to say Arabs) are the founding fathers of the FOUNDATIONS of many fields.

Now another false claim. Please do not spread these things.

9th century saw explosion of science in Iraq region mostly. There were three main groups there including Central Asians, Iranians, and Arabs.

Second larger group consisted of North Africans (modern day berbers, Algerians, Moroccans etc.) but their contributions were concentrated in Southern Europe and not in Africa.

Then small bits can be found in far off places like modern day Mali etc.

Ottomans had their shot, but soon overcome by superior work in Europe.

(Note: This is in no way comprehensive list, but it does cover must of the areas that Islamists use to make their false claims)

But there was no representation by
- Arabs of modern day Saudi (scientifically dead for 1400 years)
- Muslims of Indian subcontinent
- Indonesian Muslims
- Malaysian Muslims
- Muslim minorities in the countries now known as Thailand, Philippines etc.

So your claim that the whole scientific stuff was "Muslim",

then you better show that Muslims from much bigger population (Asia, far east etc), or at least close to Makkah Madina were good scientist too.

Science in those evolved 100s if not 1000s of miles from Makkah Madina.


Thank you


p.s.it is important to note that some Muslims from subcontinent India did excel in masonry and building architecture.

But talking about basic sciences. No.

 

[jaibi]

Well then THAT is sad! Now I have no idea why an uneducated Mullah be allowed in your philosophy class...the uni or collage should have made sure there was security esp when you have such topics to handle!

Secondly, I have yet to hear such a story from any of the Psychology schools in Punjab area...

@jaibi mind you I know many of the children dont know proper kalimah, dont know the Arabic alphabets dont know a thing about Islam yet they are not beaten...

@jaibi are you sure it was because of what the prof was teaching you and not a family feud or a debt collection?


yet you choke at the foundations?!





I didnt know your knowledge on the foundations of certain fields was soo poor! Just because it is poor you do not label another as "false claim"

No body should be beaten on how well they know their religion. It.s their choice. Who is anyone.to test them or ask them?

As I said 'founders' and fathers are arbitrary because one way or another things are discovered it matters little who did it first. Look at writing: sumerians invented it, rest took it up easily, same with astronomy.

Whwre do you live? In pakistan stopping the warriors of.islam is a death sentence.

 

[Contrarian]

Just browsed through SUSHRUTA wrote in Sanskrit which by 8th century was already translated into Arabic...Now maybe you missed the important point here:

"father of modern surgery" not classical surgery because mind you pasture was later after sushruta and he thought how to sterilize which was furthered later...I am sure maybe in 600 BC someone was cutting people but it apparently was not that successful or detailed or a foundation to MODERN surgery...apparently something was missing otherwise soo many people would still not be dying in Europe even as early as the 6th century AD!!

Lady it also says Father of operative surgery.

This is what Sushruta has:
The text discusses surgical techniques of making incisions, probing, extraction of foreign bodies, alkali and thermal cauterization, tooth extraction, excisions, and trocars for draining abscess draining hydrocele and ascitic fluid, the removal of the prostate gland, urethral stricture dilatation, vesiculolithotomy, hernia surgery, caesarian section, management of haemorrhoids, fistulae, laparotomy and management of intestinal obstruction, perforated intestines, and accidental perforation of the abdomen with protrusion of omentum and the principles of fracture management, viz., traction, manipulation, appositions and stabilization including some measures of rehabilitation and fitting of prosthetics. It enumerates six types of dislocations, twelve varieties of fractures, and classification of the bones and their reaction to the injuries, and gives a classification of eye diseases including cataract surgery.

Now I dont care what distinctions you try to make, but its pretty damn clear what Islamists like you try to do.

Secondly, have you had a look at that list you just gave me?

Its a damned joke.

'Founder of Islamic Neopoplationism
'Father of pediatrics'
'Father of Islamic alchemy'
'Read founder of clinical medicine in Islam'
'Father of Muslim International Law'

There are qualifiers in half of those lists which the TITLE OF THE THREAD you so boldly outlined is

List of Islamic scholars described as father or founder of a field.

Does Father of 'Clinical Medicine in Islam' or "Father of Islamic Alchemy' sound like the FATHER OF A FIELD to you?
Thats like saying I am the 'Father of Hindu Pediatrics in the Delhi area'.

Are you sure? Just because you know SOME Iranians...does it mean the IRANIANS back then felt that way? They didnt SIGN anything calling it IRANIAN DISCOVERY! So I am sorry if it chokes you but if he she was a Muslim, Muslim founded it...you want to go into details sure go read the biography...

Lady back then they were of their own empire. They unlike the Arabs have been strictly aware of their nation/empire/region.

And yes. Most Iranians do feel that way. I have been fortunate enough to come across these amazing people.

You feel free to talk with Iranians as well regarding this - and tell them that Muslims invented this, and youd be the first to find out how proudly they claim it as THEIR work.

I dont know why you think academia is like something to OWN that one will STEAL CREDITS!

If their name is mentioned their biodata will tell the world which country they represent no need to be insecure!

Thats exactly the point I made in my first post.
Most of the 'discoveries' that Islamists or Closet Islamists claim 'Muslims' made was based on knowledge and texts of others that did not get popularized as much because Arabs were traders.

On the other hands - Islamists are the first to point out that most major discoveries of West in the early era were based on Muslim/Arab texts and research. As though the Arabs/Muslims were the fountain head of knowledge.

 

[M. Sarmad]

However when Mullah Madoodi brought the religious $hit and Bhutto married it with Socialist $hit,
the universities lost the will to teach it well

Had Bhutto brought about true socialism , we would not be in the sorry state of affairs as we are today ...
just for example , nationalize the rental power plants of Mian Mansha , and there would be no load shedding at all .. and the eletricity will become lot cheaper .. Our energy crisis is "artificial" and is a result of greed of a few "capitalist" leeches... 99 % of us are the victim of the previliged 1 %

you saying Shia Islam didn't exist back then? Perhaps you gotta read up some. Shias Islam has existed from the time of Ali rah.

When did i say that? I said that , in the times ,you are mentioning (That of mamun) , there was no concept of "Ayatullah" ... There is a difference

Original Islam died with Muhammad (Pbuh)

Some companions adopted a capitalist type "caliphate" system

It worked for less than 15 years

In the times of third caliph (Usman r.a) , the distribution of wealth became so unjust that all of it got accumulated in the hands of a few .. Abu Zar Ghaffari (r.a) protested against it and demanded a "redistribution" , he was forsaken !!

the Ummayads changed the democratic caliphate to absolute monarchy

A hundred years later , Abbasids overthrew the Ummayads and became the kings ..

The Abassids were the first who used "religion" for the sake of politics ...

They hired the persians who wrote the famous "Saha Sitta" ..

They made the Maliki and Hanafi fiqhs as the state religion , they did so to undermine the religion and fiqh followed by the progeny of muhammad(pbuh) , whom they saw as a "potential threat" to their throne ..

That was when the religion became a "tool" for the rulers , this trend continues to this day

When saffavids gained power in Iran in 16th century , They did the same ..

A man named Baqir Majlisi was hired to help them "use" religion for political purposes
That was when the concept of "Ayatullah" and "walayat e faqih" were promoted

So that is the real story my friend ... Religion had always been a "tool" of the rulers throughout the Islamic history

 

[Dubious]

Now another false claim. Please do not spread these things.

9th century saw explosion of science in Iraq region mostly.

Calling the Iraqis as Muslim is a false claim? Drop your Islamophobia attitude please!! I am seriously concerned with your ability to comprehend let alone debate!

There were three main groups there including Central Asians, Iranians, and Arabs.

Second larger group consisted of North Africans (modern day berbers, Algerians, Moroccans etc.) but their contributions were concentrated in Southern Europe and not in Africa.

Then small bits can be found in far off places like modern day Mali etc.

Ottomans had their shot, but soon overcome by superior work in Europe.

(Note: This is in no way comprehensive list, but it does cover must of the areas that Islamists use to make their false claims)

But there was no representation by
- Arabs of modern day Saudi (scientifically dead for 1400 years)
- Muslims of Indian subcontinent
- Indonesian Muslims
- Malaysian Muslims
- Muslim minorities in the countries now known as Thailand, Philippines etc.


it is important to note that some Muslims from subcontinent India did excel in masonry and building architecture.

But talking about basic sciences. No.

Yup this list is fake only your words are true...I need a moderator here for a Islamophobia attack! @Aeronaut @WebMaster @Zakii @Jungibaaz

What do you do when a person thinks THEIR WORD is more superior to written records just because they are allergic to the word Islam and Muslims?
And keeps calling you false claim even when YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE producing some form of links vs the other @FaujHistorian going with hearsay or WHAT MY MIND WANTS TO BELIEVE theory?

 

[jaibi]

Lady it also says Father of operative surgery.

This is what Sushruta has:

The text discusses surgical techniques of making incisions, probing, extraction of foreign bodies, alkali and thermal cauterization, tooth extraction, excisions, and trocars for draining abscess draining hydrocele and ascitic fluid, the removal of the prostate gland, urethral stricture dilatation, vesiculolithotomy, hernia surgery, caesarian section, management of haemorrhoids, fistulae, laparotomy and management of intestinal obstruction, perforated intestines, and accidental perforation of the abdomen with protrusion of omentum and the principles of fracture management, viz., traction, manipulation, appositions and stabilization including some measures of rehabilitation and fitting of prosthetics. It enumerates six types of dislocations, twelve varieties of fractures, and classification of the bones and their reaction to the injuries, and gives a classification of eye diseases including cataract surgery.

Now I dont care what distinctions you try to make, but its pretty damn clear what Islamists try to do.

Secondly, have you had a look at that list you just gave me?

Its a damn joke.

'Founder of Islamic Neopoplationism
'Father of pediatrics'
'Father of Islamic alchemy'
'Read founder of clinical medicine in Islam'
'Father of Muslim International Law'

There are qualifiers in half of those lists which the TITLE OF THE THREAD you so boldly outlined is

List of Islamic scholars described as father or founder of a field.

Does Father of 'Clinical Medicine in Islam' or "Father of Islamic Alchemy' sound like the FATHER OF A FIELD to you?
Thats like saying I am the 'Father of Hindu Pediatrics in the Delhi area'.


Lady back then they were of their own empire. They unlike the Arabs have been strictly aware of their nation/empire/region.

And yes. Most Iranians do feel that way. I have been fortunate enough to come across these amazing people.

You feel free to talk with Iranians as well regarding this - and tell them that Muslims invented this, and youd be the first to find out how proudly they claim it as THEIR work.


Thats exactly the point I made in my first post.
Most of the 'discoveries' that Islamists or Closet Islamists claim 'Muslims' made was based on knowledge and texts of others that did not get popularized as much because Arabs were traders.

On the other hands - Islamists are the first to point out that most major discoveries of West in the early era were based on Muslim/Arab texts and research.

It's stupid to claim who made it first in this race. This is never ending and what matters is the here and now. Look at Greece the Arabs used their works to advance but the greeks were irrelevant by then even if their work wad instrumental. The same case is in all knowledge except perhaps literature and art.
@Talon

 

[FaujHistorian]

Lady it also says Father of operative surgery.

This is what Sushruta has:
The text discusses surgical techniques of making incisions, probing, extraction of foreign bodies, alkali and thermal cauterization, tooth extraction, .

Yaar Contra,

I get your point where @Talon is out of her league.

But I don't like this our $htick is bigger than yours attitude among some Indian posters.

One can always dang dong about 600 BC or 6000 BC for religious or nationalist mumbo jumbo.

But science should be spared of this as much as possible.

Somebody did something 10 generations ago in your family.

but the current generation cannot use that knowledge and instead goes to USA /EU to learn the latest techniques. you don't open a book by some Indian dude or dudet of 600 BC or a Arab/Irani/Turk from 9th century.

So guess what

Surgery's credit should go to USA/EU surgeons.

Rest of the stuff are just stories to be shared over cup of hot tea and sweet biscuits.

I hope you understand.

 

[Dubious]

Lady it also says Father of operative surgery.

This is what Sushruta has:
The text discusses surgical techniques of making incisions, probing, extraction of foreign bodies, alkali and thermal cauterization, tooth extraction, excisions, and trocars for draining abscess draining hydrocele and ascitic fluid, the removal of the prostate gland, urethral stricture dilatation, vesiculolithotomy, hernia surgery, caesarian section, management of haemorrhoids, fistulae, laparotomy and management of intestinal obstruction, perforated intestines, and accidental perforation of the abdomen with protrusion of omentum and the principles of fracture management, viz., traction, manipulation, appositions and stabilization including some measures of rehabilitation and fitting of prosthetics. It enumerates six types of dislocations, twelve varieties of fractures, and classification of the bones and their reaction to the injuries, and gives a classification of eye diseases including cataract surgery.

Now I dont care what distinctions you try to make, but its pretty damn clear what Islamists like you try to do.

Secondly, have you had a look at that list you just gave me?

Its a damned joke.

'Founder of Islamic Neopoplationism
'Father of pediatrics'
'Father of Islamic alchemy'
'Read founder of clinical medicine in Islam'
'Father of Muslim International Law'

There are qualifiers in half of those lists which the TITLE OF THE THREAD you so boldly outlined is

List of Islamic scholars described as father or founder of a field.

Does Father of 'Clinical Medicine in Islam' or "Father of Islamic Alchemy' sound like the FATHER OF A FIELD to you?
Thats like saying I am the 'Father of Hindu Pediatrics in the Delhi area'.

Yea pick the 2-5 stupid ones but ignore the valid ones!!

Lady back then they were of their own empire. They unlike the Arabs have been strictly aware of their nation/empire/region.

NOT REALLY! Nationalism was a new concept drilled into them causing the collapse of the last Ottomon empire!

And yes. Most Iranians do feel that way. I have been fortunate enough to come across these amazing people.

Really? There are many Iranians and they swing both ways...I have been fortunate enough to see the ultra religious Iranians and the ultra liberal who admit they are Muslims by name and hate their regime and believe it is all evil

You feel free to talk with Iranians as well regarding this - and tell them that Muslims invented this, and youd be the first to find out how proudly they claim it as THEIR work.

Mention one here! I think I have 1 in my friend list @SOHEIL please clarify this statement!

Thats exactly the point I made in my first post.
Most of the 'discoveries' that Islamists or Closet Islamists claim 'Muslims' made was based on knowledge and texts of others that did not get popularized as much because Arabs were traders.

On the other hands - Islamists are the first to point out that most major discoveries of West in the early era were based on Muslim/Arab texts and research. As though the Arabs/Muslims were the fountain head of knowledge.

funniest thing I have heard....

Everyone can swallow Avicenna but once told it is actually IBN SINA they get choked!

Everyone can swallow GABER but once told it is AL JABIR they choke and many more names which the West made sound like Gora so you can continue worshiping them....I am not saying all on the list are valid but there are some who you should be ashamed if you deny!

 

[Contrarian]

It's stupid to claim who made it first in this race. This is never ending and what matters is the here and now. Look at Greece the Arabs used their works to advance but the greeks were irrelevant by then even if their work wad instrumental. The same case is in all knowledge except perhaps literature and art.
@Talon

Yaar Contra,

I get your point where @Talon is out of her league.

But I don't like this our $htick is bigger than yours attitude among some Indian posters.

One can always dang dong about 600 BC or 6000 BC for religious or nationalist mumbo jumbo.

But science should be spared of this as much as possible.

Somebody did something 10 generations ago in your family.

but the current generation cannot use that knowledge and instead goes to USA /EU to learn the latest techniques. you don't open a book by some Indian dude or dudet of 600 BC or a Arab/Irani/Turk from 9th century.

So guess what

Surgery's credit should go to USA/EU surgeons.

Rest of the stuff are just stories to be shared over cup of hot tea and sweet biscuits.

I hope you understand.

I do understand what both of you are saying.

What I object to are the blatant lies of Talon.

I pointed out very clearly in my last post, what she is trying to imply which is outright a lie. That list is a damned joke. Probably made by another Islamist.

No one minds when you say that knowledge is shared and each expanded on the knowledge of the other. The issue comes when she tried to imply something different.

Lastly, her defence on everything is saying 'you are an Islamophobe', 'get over your Islamophobia', 'you have a problem with Muslims'.

I can call a closet Islamist when I see one.