Slow poisoned academia?

[M. Sarmad]

Thats because I have had the pleasure of Islamists spouting crap about imagined achievements of other Islamists!
All in an effort to bring fake/false glory and show it as some kind of super advanced civilization

And now we have the pleasure of a hate filled , anti muslim spouting crap about the glory of Islamic civilization !!

 

[Contrarian]

And now we have the pleasure of a hate filled , anti muslim spouting crap about the glory of Islamic civilization !!

I have no hate filled idea pal.
I simply reject the idea she was ascribing. I have also mentioned that. Try to not look at things in isolation and follow the conversation pattern.

Not just that, I have also given specific example to where it was wrong with sources as well.

 

[FaujHistorian]

And now we have the pleasure of a hate filled , anti muslim spouting crap about the glory of Islamic civilization !!

Making false claims in the name of a religion is the worst thing one can do.

Please give the credit where it is due.

Thank you

 

[M. Sarmad]

I simply reject the idea she was ascribing. I have also mentioned that. Try to not look at things in isolation and follow the conversation pattern

There are other ways of disagreeing with some one too .. You dont need to give "generalised" remarks
every time

Making false claims in the name of a religion is the worst thing one can do.
Please give the credit where it is due.
Thank you

Saying that "Islam has been a glorious civilization" is "making a false claim" .........???
Seriously man I think you are high on drugs today or may be I am

 

[Dubious]

So


in

9th-10th century Muslims surgeons were 1,000 years ahead of their time.

Meaning they were doing surgery in 9th-10th century that the rest of the world only started doing in 19th and 20th century?


What kind of bull is that?

Well, if this is bull...so is mr. 600 BC surgery which no one has heard off!

Now tell me which gora discovered or was sterilizing HIS 600 BC surgical tools?

THAT was ahead of time! Because in 13th century the Black death...plague was sweeping across Europe...which mind you would have solved problems had they been techniques to sterilize...or 600 BC book to do surgery to either study the rats or the dead patients...

All in all, the plague reduced the world population from an estimated 450 million down to 350–375 million in the 14th century.

Now dont start denying the black death which never touched the Islamic world....I wonder why....

I leave thee at this...Coz people with a set mindset and lacking background information and refusing to learn...Well, GOD BLESS THEM LOT!

 

[FaujHistorian]

Saying that "Islam has been a glorious civilization" is "making a false claim" .........???
Seriously man I think you are high on drugs today or may be I am

You know me. I'll never reply in personal attack or remark.

Just with respect, I'll state that your claim

----- "Islam has been a glorious civilization"

is a cheap evangelical trick that so many Pakistanis get trapped in, and then continue repeating over and over without ever thinking as to what the heck they mean by glorious or how many really know what it means by civilization.


Let me simply ask a question.

What was the top contribution of your grand father's specific state/province/city towards this period of "glorious civilization"

Please list anything to do with basic sciences and surgery and medicine.

Thank you.

That article is again bull crap. I have given source of Indian works preceding that - at 600 BC.

My simple question to Indians and Islamists is:

Where do you go for training in surgery/ chemistry / physics?
Which books you read in order to learn surgery/ chemistry / physics?

How many of these books are copying and pasting full chapters from 600 BC Venkatarma, or 900 AD Arab bin fulana bin fulana fulana.

Thank you

 

[Contrarian]

Well, if this is bull...so is mr. 600 BC surgery which no one has heard off!

Now tell me which gora discovered or was sterilizing HIS 600 BC surgical tools?

THAT was ahead of time! Because in 13th century the Black death...plague was sweeping across Europe...which mind you would have solved problems had they been techniques to sterilize...or 600 BC book to do surgery to either study the rats or the dead patients...

All in all, the plague reduced the world population from an estimated 450 million down to 350–375 million in the 14th century.

Now dont start denying the black death which never touched the Islamic world....I wonder why....

I leave thee at this...Coz people with a set mindset and lacking background information and refusing to learn...Well, GOD BLESS THEM LOT!

Yes lady. No one has heard of it. Thats why every Indian - that makes 1.2 billion people out of 7 billion globally knows his name.
For Pakistani's like you, unless its Arabic, you wouldnt have heard anyone's name.

Dont waste our time, read up on all the references provided at the bottom of the page in the wiki article. You would be enlightened that before the 1000 year leap of the Arabs, Indians were already there. Dont choose to remain ignorant.

You know me. I'll never reply in personal attack or remark.

Just with respect, I'll state that your claim

----- "Islam has been a glorious civilization"

is a cheap evangelical trick that so many Pakistanis get trapped in, and then continue repeating over and over without ever thinking as to what the heck they mean by glorious or how many really know what it means by civilization.


Let me simply ask a question.

What was the top contribution of your grand father's specific state/province/city towards this period of "glorious civilization"

Please list anything to do with basic sciences and surgery and medicine.

Thank you.



My simple question to Indians and Islamists is:
Where do you go for training in surgery/ chemistry / physics?
Which books you read in order to learn surgery/ chemistry / physics?

How many of these books are copying and pasting full chapters from 600 BC Venkatarma, or 900 AD Arab bin fulana bin fulana fulana.

Thank you

Letting people claim false history is not the solution for the problem you are implying.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Well, if this is bull...so is mr. 600 BC surgery which no one has heard off!

Now tell me which gora discovered or was sterilizing HIS 600 BC surgical tools?

Again you my dear refuse to support your claims.

you said "Muslims" were 1000 years ahead.

Tell me if the the rest of the world only caught up to "glorious Muslims science-ology" only in 19th and 20 century.

Thank you. No running in circles. No pulling rabbits or birds out of topi.

 

[Dubious]

Yes lady. No one has heard of it. Thats why every Indian - that makes 1.2 billion people out of 7 billion globally knows his name.
For Pakistani's like you, unless its Arabic, you wouldnt have heard anyone's name.

1) Good you Indians concentrate on your own people...

2) I was never raised in Pakistan...try your hate theory elsewhere! So the country xyz I was raised ALSO never heard of him

Dont waste our time, read up on all the references provided in the wiki article. You would be enlightened that before the 1000 year leap of the Arabs, Indians were already there.

You make everything a measuring game dont you? not just mentality but seriously this is really bad....well glad all 7 b of you can know 1 man atleast!

Letting people claim false history is not the solution for the problem you are implying.

Then explain these:

The Contributions of the Islamic Empire to Medicine and Science

"In the Middle Ages, while Europe was mired in superstition and feudal chaos, Baghdad was the intellectual center of the world. It was there that an army of translators and scholars took the wisdom of the Greeks and combined it with their own culural traditions to create a scientific, mathematical and philosophical golden age. Their accomplishments were staggering, including the development of modern medicine, chemistry, and algebra. Muslim scientists correctly calculated the circumference of the globe in the tenth century. Muslim musicians introduced the guitar and musical notation to Europe. And Muslim philosophers invented the scientific method and paved the way for the Enlightenment.

At the dawn of the Renaissance, Christian Europe was wearing Persion clothes, singing Arab songs, reading Spanish Muslim philosophy and eating off Mamluk Turkish brassware." --Mark Graham--, How Islam Created the Modern World


Ibn Al-Nafis (1213 CE – 1288 CE / 687 AH)

Ala al-Din Abu al-Hassan Ali ibn Abi-Hazm al-Qurashi al-Dimashqi, or more commonly known as Ibn Al-Nafis, was an Arab physician, anatomist, physiologist, surgeon, ophthalmologist, Hafiz, Hadith scholar, Shafi`i jurist and lawyer, theologian, Islamic philosopher, logician, novelist, psychologist, sociologist, scientist, science fiction writer, astronomer, cosmologist, futurist, geologist, grammarian, linguist and historian. He was born in Damascus, Syria and worked in Cairo, Egypt. Ibn Al-Nafis is known as the "Father of Circulatory Physiology", with his most notable discovery being the discovery of Pulmonary Circulation, although this is normally credited to Sir William Harvey of Kent, England who claimed discovery 350 years later. His discovery of pulmonary circulation disproved that of Galen who suggested that invisible pores in the intraventricular septum of the heart was responsible for delivering blood from the right to the left ventricle. Ibn Al-Nafis clearly stated that blood from the right ventricle reach the left ventricle must reach the left ventricle by way of lungs only and not through an invisible passage connecting the ventricles, as Galen maintained. Ibn Al-Nafis is also credited with great insight into capillary and coronary circulation, which forms the basis of the human circulatory system. For this he was called the father of circulatory physiology and "the greatest physiologist of the middle ages". Ibn Al-Nafis also was known to have discredited Avicennian (Ibn Sina)and Galenic theories on the pulse, bones. muscles, intestines, esophogus, and many more. He also wrote the first science fiction novel which was also the first theological novel. During his lifetime, Ibn AL-Nafis was able to write an 80 volume encyclopedia "The Comprehensive Book on Medicine" which eventually replaces Ibn Sina's (Avicenna) famous book "The Cannon of Medicine". From then on, most historians and reviewers considered him to be the "greatest physician ever" and some called him "the second Ibn Sina", while others considered him to have surpassed Ibn Sina.

Ibn Al-Nafis is also well known for his knowledge in hadith sciences and jurisprudence. He was well known for introducing a more logical method of classifying hadith in his famous work "A Short Account of the Methodology of Hadith" among many other works. Ibn Al-Nafis also wrote fictional Arabic literature, most notably Theologus Autodidactus, which was an attempt to combine reason, faith, and science. This was indeed a successful novel which did its job. Ibn AL-Nafis is considering among the greatest physicians and scientists of his time, and his accomplishments will echo throught the centuries to come.

• Pub Med Publication: Why historians of medicine called Ibn al-Nafis second Avicenna?

Works: Commentary on Anatomy in Avicenna's Canon, The Comprehensive Book on Medicine, Theologus Autodidactus, A Short Account of the Methodology of Hadith, Commentary on Compound Drugs, The Polished Book on Experimental Ophthalmology, The Choice of Foodstuffs, Synopsis of Medicine, An Essay on Organs, Reference Book for Physicians, The Summary of Law, Road to Eloquence, The Segments, The Little Papers


Abū ‘Alī al-Ḥusayn ibn ‘Abd Allāh ibn Sīnā', commonly known as Ibn Sina, was a Persian polymath and the foremost philosopher and physician of his time. In addition, he was an astronomer, chemists, geologist, logician, paleantologist, mathematician, physicist, poet, psychologist, scientist, and teacher. Ibn Sina wrote a total of 450 treatises on many subjects but only 240 survived, 40 of which were on medicine alone. His most famous works included "The Book of Healing", a philosophical ans scientific encyclopedia and "The Canon of Medicine", which the was the foremost textbook on medicine in its time. The Canon of Medicine was used in universities across the world, including the University of Montpellier and the University of Louvain. The principles of medicine described by Ibn Sina in his book are still taught at UCLA and Yale University. Ibn Sina developed his own medical system which was a combination of his own experiences, Islamic medicine, the Greek Galen's system, and ancient Persian, Indian, and Mesopotamian systems.

Ibn Sina is regarded as the "Father of of modern medicine and clinical pharmacology" particularly for his introduction of systemic experimentation and quantification of the study of physiology, his discovery of the contagious nature of infectious disease, the introduction of quarantine to limit the spread of contagious disease, the introduction of experimental medicine, clinical trials, randomized controlled trials, efficacy tests, clinical pharmacology, neuropsychiatry, risk factor analysis, the idea of a syndrome, and the importance of dietetics,

and the influence of climate and environment on health. Ibn Sina is also considered the "Father of the fundamental concept of momentum in physics", and regarded as a pioneer of aromatherapy for his invention of steam distillation and extraction of essential oils. Ibn Sina also developed the concept of uniformitarianism and the law of superposition in geology, for which he is considered the "Father of geology".

George Sarton, the author of the History of Science, wrote in his introduction, "One of the most famous exponents of Muslim universalism and an eminent figure in Islamic learning was Ibn Sina, known in the West as Avicenna (981-1037). For a thousand years he has retained his original renown as one of the greatest thinkers and medical scholars in history. His most important medical works are the Qanun (Canon) and a treatise on Cardiac drugs. The 'Qanun fi-l-Tibb' is an immense encyclopedia of medicine. It contains some of the most illuminating thoughts pertaining to distinction of mediastinitis from pleurisy; contagious nature of phthisis (tuberculosis); distribution of diseases by water and soil; careful description of skin troubles; of sexual diseases and perversions; of nervous ailments".

Works: The Canon of Medicine, The Life of Ibn Sina, Remarks and Ambitions, Essay on the Secret of Destiny, The Book of Scientific Knowledge, The Book of Healing.

Al-Razi

Islam's Contributions to Medicine and Medicine Facts

• Iranian scientist Samuel Rahbar was a pioneer in hematology and the understanding of diabetes. In 1969, he discovered glycosylated hemoglobin (HbA1C), a form of hemoglobin used primarily to identify plasma glucose concentration over time. He was also the first to describe its increase in diabetes.

• Chickenpox was also first indentified by Al-Razi, who clearly distinguished it from smallpox and measles. The Comprehensive Book of Medicine, especially with its introduction of measles, smallpox and chickenpox, was very influential in Europe.

• The study of allergology and immunology originate from the Islamic world. Muhammad ibn Zakarīya Rāzi (Rhazes) was responsible for discovering "allergic asthma", and was the first physician known to have written articles on allergy and the immune system. In the Sense of Smelling, he explains the occurrence of rhinitis after smelling a rose during the Spring. In the Article on the Reason Why Abou Zayd Balkhi Suffers from Rhinitis When Smelling Roses in Spring, he dicusses seasonal rhinitis, which is the same as allergic asthma or hay fever. Al-Razi was the first to realize that fever is a natural defense mechanism, the body's way of fighting disease. The distinction between smallpox and measles also dates back to al-Razi. The medical procedure of inoculation was practiced in the medieval Islamic world in order to treat smallpox. This was later followed by the first smallpox vaccine in the form of cowpox, invented in Turkey in the early 18th century

• In hematology, Abu al-Qasim al-Zahrawi (Abulcasis) wrote the first description on haemophilia, a hereditary genetic disorder, in his Al-Tasrif, in which he wrote of an Andalusian family whose males died of bleeding after minor injuries.

• The first psychiatric hospitals and insane asylums were built in the Islamic world as early as the 8th century. The first psychiatric hospitals were built by Arab Muslims in Baghdad in 705, Fes in the early 8th century, and Cairo in 800.

• Ibn al-Haytham (Alhacen) made important contributions to ophthalmology and eye surgery, as he studied and correctly explained the process of sight and visual perception for the first time in his Book of Optics, published in 1021.He was also the first to hint at the retina being involved in the process of image formation.

• Ibn al-Nafis, in The Polished Book on Experimental Ophthalmology, discovered that the muscle behind the eyeball does not support the ophthalmic nerve, that they do not get in contact with it, and that the optic nerves transect but do not get in touch with each other. He also discovered many new treatments for glaucoma and the weakness of vision in one eye when the other eye is affected by disease.

• Muslim physicians set up the earliest dedicated hospitals in the modern sense, known as Bimaristans, which were establishments where the ill were welcomed and cared for by qualified staff, and which were clearly distinguished from the ancient healing temples, sleep temples, hospices, asylums, lazarets and leper-houses which were more concerned with isolating the sick and the mad (insane) from society "rather than to offer them any way to a true cure. "These contrasted with hospitals in Christian Europe which were more concerned with prayer. The Bimaristan hospitals later functioned as the first public hospitals, psychiatric hospitals and diploma-granting medical universities.

• Abu al-Qasim al-Zahrawi (Abulcasis), regarded as the father of modern surgery, contributed greatly to the discipline of medical surgery with his Kitab al-Tasrif ("Book of Concessions"), a 30-volume medical encyclopedia published in 1000, which was later translated to Latin and used in European medical schools for centuries. He invented numerous surgical instruments and described them in his al-Tasrif.

• Like in other fields of Islamic science, Muslim physicians and doctors developed the first scientific methods for the field of medicine. This included the introduction of mathematization, quantification, experimentation, experimental medicine, evidence-based medicine, clinical trials, dissection, animal testing, human experimentation and postmortem autopsy by Muslim physicians, whilst hospitals in the Islamic world featured the first drug tests, drug purity regulations, and competency tests for doctors.

• In the 10th century, Razi (Rhazes) introduced controlled experiment and clinical observation into the field of medicine, and rejected several Galenic medical theories unverified by experimentation. The earliest known medical experiment was carried out by Razi in order to find the most hygienic place to build a hospital. He hung pieces of meat in places throughout 10th century Baghdad and observed where the meat decomposed least quickly, and that was where he built the hospital. In his Comprehensive Book of Medicine, Razi recorded clinical cases of his own experience and provided very useful recordings of various diseases. In his Doubts about Galen, Razi was also the first to prove both Galen's theory of humorism and Aristotle's theory of classical elements false using experimentation. He also introduced urinalysis and stool tests.

• Ibn Zuhr (Avenzoar) (1091-1161) was one of the earliest physicians known to have carried out human dissection and postmortem autopsy. He proved that the skin disease scabies was caused by a parasite, a discovery which upset the theory of humorism supported by Hippocrates and Galen. The removal of the parasite from the patient's body did not involve purging, bleeding, or any other traditional treatments associated with the four humours.

• Muslim physicians were pioneers in pulsology and sphygmology. In ancient times, Galen as well as Chinese physicians erroneously believed that there was a unique type of pulse for every organ of the body and for every disease. Galen also erroneously believed that "every part of an artery pulsates simultaneously" and that the motion of the pulse was due to natural motions (the arteries expanding and contracting naturally) as opposed to forced motions (the heart causing the arteries to either expand or contract). The first correct explanations of pulsation were given by Muslim physicians.

• Avicenna was a pioneer of sphygmology after he refined Galen's theory of the pulse and discovered the following in The Canon of Medicine:"Every beat of the pulse comprises two movements and two pauses. Thus, expansion : pause : contraction : pause. [...] The pulse is a movement in the heart and arteries ... which takes the form of alternate expansion and contraction."
• Avicenna also pioneered the modern approach of examining the pulse through the examination of the wrist, which is still practiced in modern times. His reasons for choosing the wrist as the ideal location is due to it being easily available and the patient not needing to be distressed at the exposure of his/her body. The Latin translation of his Canon also laid the foundations for the later invention of the sphygmograph

• In etiology and epidemiology, Muslim physicians were responsible for the discovery of infectious disease and the immune system, advances in pathology, and early hypotheses related to bacteriology and microbiology. Their discovery of contagious disease in particular is considered revolutionary and is one of the most important discoveries in medicine. The earliest ideas on contagion can be traced back to several hadiths attributed to Muhammad (pbuh) in the 7th century, who is said to have understood the contagious nature of leprosy, mange, and sexually transmitted disease. These early ideas on contagion arose from the generally sympathetic attitude of Muslim physicians towards lepers (who were often seen in a negative light in other ancient and medieval societies) which can be traced back through hadiths attributed to Muhammad and to the following advice given in the Qur'an:
  
  "There is no fault in the blind, and there is no fault in the lame, and there is no fault in the sick."
  
  This eventually led to the theory of contagious disease, which was fully understood by Avicenna in the 11th century. By then, the pathology of contagion had been fully understood, and as a result, hospitals were created with separate wards for specific illnesses, so that people with contagious diseases could be kept away from other patients who do not have any contagious diseases.
  ​

Again you my dear refuse to support your claims.

you said "Muslims" were 1000 years ahead.

Tell me if the the rest of the world only caught up to "glorious Muslims science-ology" only in 19th and 20 century.

Thank you. No running in circles. No pulling rabbits or birds out of topi.

Read below your post....Mind you I am in Europe and it is way past my bedtime and unlike some of you I do have some work to do tomorrow but
Had I not replied you would not stop bugging as usual

 

[Contrarian]

It is apparent you are deliberately not responding to what I am accusing you of.

If you like I can post 3 page long essays about Sushruta and his works the way you are.

Fact of the matter is, what he did is much before what the Arabs did in this field.
Accept it with grace and move on.

 

[Dubious]

@Contrarian I believe Biology is not your strong point and hence none of those names which EVEN THE WEST follow are familiar to you or @FaujHistorian ...

As for the Greeks, I think my above text shows how the GREEK theories were rejected, proved or anything else DURING THAT PERIOD based on RESEARCH which mind you is where the focus should be!

It is apparent you are deliberately not responding to what I am accusing you of.

If you like I can post 3 page long essays about Sushruta and his works the way you are.

Fact of the matter is, what he did is much before what the Arabs did in this field.
Accept it with grace and move on.

Then why isnt he acknowledged? or heard of?

 

[M. Sarmad]

is a cheap evangelical trick that so many Pakistanis get trapped in, and then continue repeating over and over without ever thinking as to what the heck they mean by glorious or how many really know what it means by civilization

Brother read this study in full, may be you would be able to understand what is meant when some one talks about Glorious Islamic Civilization and its benefits to the world

http://idosi.org/wjihc/wjihc2(3)12/7.pdf

Abstract: Crusades occurred between Muslims and Christians in 1097 to 1291, which its main aim was to recapture Jerusalem by the Christians. During this time, Europeans had enough opportunity to learn about Islamic civilization and its cultural and economic benefits. Although these were ended with the political and military victory of Muslims enabling them to keep their lands, Europeans were much benefited of the economy, culture and civilization. Crusades caused Europeans to be familiar with the East and especially the glorious Islamic civilization and they took advantage of Muslims’ knowledge. This leads to developments that this laterhad an important role in the Europe progress. In fact the Crusades caused the transfer of achievements of Islamic civilization into Europe. The objectives of this study are as follow: it reviews the development of Europe after the Crusades, using rich culture and civilization of Islam and it investigates the stagnation of the Islam after the Crusades. That period is considered to be one of the most important liaison points. Although the crusaders came to the Islamic oriental seeking war rather than knowledge, they were influenced by Islamic civilization. The crusaders benefited as much as they could of the Muslims’ achievements to Europe, which was suffering from backwardness and degeneration at that time. This study analyzes the appropriate responses to the following questions: Though the Europeans were trying to understand the Muslim community by establishing Islam and Orientalism studies and even teaching Arabic and Persian in their universities, why Muslims did not stepped towards understanding west in the same manner? Although Islamic culture had an outstanding effect on the growth of European intellectual, it was still virtually challenging to have mutual understanding among civilizations

 

[Dubious]

I dont need to settle any accusations...You threw them at me doesnt automatically make me what you accuse me off!

Plus the fact of the matter still remains why ONLY INDIANS who do not even know when the Vedas was 1st founded or heard of "correctly" know of this 600 BC person and his/her text?

What Is Medieval Islamic Medicine?

What Is Medieval Islamic Medicine?
Medicine was an important part of medieval Islamic life; both rich and poor people were interested in health and diseases. Islamic doctors and a number of scholars wrote profusely on health and developed extensive and complex medical literature on medications, clinical practice, diseases, cures, treatments and diagnoses. Unlike medical literature today, which is specialized, in the medieval Islamic world it was integrated with natural science, astrology, alchemy, religion, philosophy and mathematics.

Islamic medicine built on the legacies left behind by Greek and Roman physicians and scholars. Islamic physicians and scholars were strongly influenced by Galen and Hippocrates, who were viewed as the two fathers of medicine, closely followed by the Greek scholars of Alexandria, Egypt. Most medical literature from both the Greek and Roman civilizations was translated into Arabic, and was later adapted to include their own findings and conclusions.

at least where respect is due it was given unlike some denial modes!!

Islamic scholars were experts in gathering data and placing them in order so that readers could find them easier to understand and search backwards and forwards through various texts. They turned many of the Greek and Roman writings into summaries and encyclopedias.

Put simply, Islamic medicine built on Greek medical tradition and then formed its own. In fact, it was through reading Arabic versions that Western doctors learned of Greek medicine, including the works of Hippocrates and Galen.

So the West learnt it from somewhere too not that much from the Greeks themselves...

Islamic medicine was not a subject in its own right in the medieval Islamic world - it was immersed into the culture. The publication of literature was a prestigious profession - paper making was sophisticated, books had illustrations, calligraphy was considered an art in itself. For readers of medicine at the time, those published in the Islamic world were fascinating to read.

@FaujHistorian I hope you know how to be ashamed of the accusations you threw now! If you are not...GOD HELP YOU!

From 661 to 750 AD, an early Islamic period called Umayyad, people generally believed that Allah (God) would provide treatment for every illness. By 900 AD Islam started to develop and practice a medical system slanting towards science.

while the church was still having heartattacks about the earth being flat and not sphere!

As people became more interested in health and health sciences from a scientific point of view, Islamic doctors strived to find healing procedures, with Allah's permission, that looked at the natural causes and potential treatments and cures.

The Medieval Islamic world produced some of the greatest medical thinkers in history, they also made advances in surgery, built hospitals, and welcomed women into the medical profession.

Everyone but @FaujHistorian thinks that the scientist were ahead of their time I wonder when @FaujHistorian will get a noble prize since he can tell things others cant and yet call the student as...what was that word again??