Slow poisoned academia?

[FaujHistorian]

On Topic : I think that a very important thing has not been discussed here ...
We produce a lot of good doctors and engineers ,
our education system and our priorities are about "a secure future"
Only those who are unable to get anywhere else in life end up in "Teaching Profession" which unfortunately had been the lowest paid and the least rewarding one ...
Untill Musharraf`s time when remarkable benefits were announced for qualified teachers (lets give the devil his due share)
Without the most brilliant brains making up our academia , its impossible to achieve any organic intellectual growth in the society

Pakistan in the 50s and 60s was place of prosperity, development and forward thinking.

However when Mullah Madoodi brought the religious $hit and Bhutto married it with Socialist $hit,

the universities lost the will to teach it well.


Nationalized and ruined, Pakistanis lost a lot of good teachers.

It all became something where you secure jobs and not somewhere you spend extra time to teach.


Students too suffered as a result.

 

[Dubious]

The PPP government did cut off a lot of HEC powers I was happy to see the academia take a stand.

Cutting off HEC was good? The very organization that was actually checking for fake degrees and cutting it off allowed jahils like our education minister saying stuff like this:
Kiya faragh parta hai agar degree asli ho ja jali? Degree degree hoti hai...When I heard this I was like

 

[jaibi]

Oh dont worry it happens actively in Eastern Europe as well as Western Europe...

I can vouch for that!!


Yes like I said post 9/11....but I think I forgot to mention it has somewhat recovered a little now...SOMEWHAT...

Yes, I have seen it as well. We had a seminar here a few months back where they are initiating a plan to add student papers and essays in the university servers and only give the author the right to publish it in a journal otherwise count it as plagerism.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Which madrassah did you study in to spew such hate? I have not read nor heard of such mumbo jumbo as of yet from any of my cousins studying in uni or aunts who are teaching and in research centers

Because my dear dear dear

you have not studied, have not thought through the struggles between the likes of Ghazali and Rushd, Sir Syed vs. Mullahs.

You just heard few things in the streets and now come here and do street level arguments.

Sadly.

 

[M. Sarmad]

However the struggle between Mullahs and Ayatullahs who peddled interpretation based on Quran and Sunnah,
vs.
rationalists (like Mutazalli Islam followed by Mamun) is documented.

Now what do you mean by that ?
Mullahs and Ayatullahs are a problem , true
But they are not the root cause of every problem

In the times you are talking about , there were no Ayatullahs , hope u know .. Mutazalis like Al Masudi and Ibn e Abi Hadid have contributed a lot , But they were later rejected by Mullahs (not Ayatullahs) i.e The greatest muhaddis of all times Ibn e Hajr Asqalani , declared that the greatest Muslim Historian ever (Al Masudi) was "untrustworthy" , and interestingly he said so after 500 years of death of Al Masudi ......

 

[Dubious]

Because my dear dear dear

you have not studied, have not thought through the struggles between the likes of Ghazali and Rushd, Sir Syed vs. Mullahs.

You just heard few things in the streets and now come here and do street level arguments.

Sadly.

Mind you I prob have been to a more religious school then you

Just coz you have been thought some screw up (you yourself admit) then why reject when someone tries to tell you the truth? You know you were thought crap yet you want to stick to it? how is that useful?

Mind you Ghazali, Rushd are not the ONLY ones...prob you were thought ONLY their footsteps but there are others far more inspiring!

 

[FaujHistorian]

Now what do you mean by that ?
Mullahs and Ayatullahs are a problem , true
But they are not the root cause of every problem

In the times you are talking about , there were no Ayatullahs , hope u know .. Mutazalis like Al Masudi and Ibn e Abi Hadid have contributed a lot , But they were later rejected by Mullahs (not Ayatullahs) i.e The greatest muhaddis of all times Ibn e Hajr Asqalani , declared that the greatest Muslim Historian ever (Al Masudi) was "untrustworthy" , and interestingly he said so after 500 years of death of Al Masudi ......

Please do not jump to conclusions.

We are discussing science, @Talon made false claims, and I tried to give an alternative view.

Mullahs and Ayatullahs do impede rational thinking. Why so surprised?

Oh and Ayatullahs here represent Shia Mullahs (as per Shia faith's Quranic interpretation towars the role of Ayatullahs)
---- you saying Shia Islam didn't exist back then? Perhaps you gotta read up some. Shias Islam has existed from the time of Ali rah.,

And Mullahs represent Sunni (Quran and Hadees) peddlers.


Peace

Mind you I prob have been to a more religious school then you

Just coz you have been thought some screw up (you yourself admit) then why reject when someone tries to tell you the truth? You know you were thought crap yet you want to stick to it? how is that useful?

Mind you Ghazali, Rushd are not the ONLY ones...prob you were thought ONLY their footsteps but there are others far more inspiring!

Putting LOLs may make you popular with the guys,

but it doesn't add anything to a rational debate.

Please be rational.


Thank you

Quote your favorite thinkers, authors, etc. to support your reasoning.

Just saying "there are others"

is not sufficient.




peace

 

[Dubious]

Please do not jump to conclusions.

We are discussing science, @Talon made false claims, and I tried to give an alternative view.

False claims? Because you didnt understand does not mean you push down the other to show yourself as the good guy...
@jaibi I do not see you jumping up and down giving advice about someone's abilities here

Mullahs and Ayatullahs do impede rational thinking. Why so surprised?

Oh and Ayatullahs here represent Shia Mullahs (as per Shia faith's Quranic interpretation towars the role of Ayatullahs)
---- you saying Shia Islam didn't exist back then? Perhaps you gotta read up some. Shias Islam has existed from the time of Ali rah.,

And Mullahs represent Sunni (Quran and Hadees) peddlers.


Peace

When you right peace dont give it like a gali! Opper aglay ko jhoota keh kay you go peace?! really?

Putting LOLs may make you popular with the guys,

I see your mindset now ...it is LOW AND disgusting

but it doesn't add anything to a rational debate.

yes coz FOR MULLAHS AND AYATULLAHS like you it is HARAM to crack a joke!

Please be rational.

Thank you

Quote your favorite thinkers, authors, etc. to support your reasoning.

Just saying "there are others"

is not sufficient.


peace

And I would like you to get past your Isalamophbia before coming to ANY THREAD that mentions Islam in it!

 

[M. Sarmad]

Please do not jump to conclusions.
We are discussing science, @Talon made false claims, and I tried to give an alternative view.
Mullahs and Ayatullahs do impede rational thinking. Why so surprised?

I did not jump to any conclusion , I just pointed out a "technical" mistake in your assumption ..
why are you so much obsessed with word "Ayatullah" ??
And which "False Claim" are you talking about , You believe that Muslims did not contribute anything to science ?

 

[Dubious]

I did not jump to any conclusion , I just pointed out a "technical" mistake in your assumption ..
why are you so much obsessed with word "Ayatullah" ??

@jaibi its not just me who thinks of him that way and BTW he has made his own reputation in such a way please do take note!!

And which "False Claim" are you talking about , You believe that Muslims did not contribute anything to science ?

Delusional people cant be fixed by outsiders...they need support from within themselves to want to be "fixed"

 

[Contrarian]

Schools and scholarly journals?

Call yourself a historian...

1stly, journals themselves were introduced only wayyyy after the golden age of Islam...esp when Muslims went into slumber so no idea what scholarly journals you request?!

There are fundamentals of EACH field where Muslims did research and paved the fundamentals for the research done by the West ...

Which the Arabs themselves used research and knowledge of the greeks and romans and indians.
Stop claiming credit where there is none.
Research and knowledge always moves from one place to another. Stop implying even indirectly that Arabs/Iranians somehow were crucial, because if they were to Western research, then the Greeks and Romans were crucial to the Arabs and Iranians incremental knowledge.

Mind you I always say Muslims coz I do not differentiate if they were Iranians, Iraqis, Saudi, Syrian or whatever...Muslims were Muslims...

Wrong.
Iranians take pride because they were drove the science and culture of a particular era, not because they were Muslims.

Looking to partake in someone else's hard work?

 

[jaibi]

@jaibi its not just me who thinks of him that way and BTW he has made his own reputation in such a way please do take note!!


Delusional people cant be fixed by outsiders...they need support from within themselves to want to be "fixed"

Sorry, I was commenting on.another thread.

Talon, @FaujiHistorian @Azlan Haider all I.m asking is that we remain civil. We're all Pakistanis and hence brethren. Let's keep that in mind.

Now we have our own interpretations and we've a right to that but when we are proposing something let's be reasonable and open about it.

I would say that things are not all white or black: yes, Arab Muslims.made great leaps. Yes, they eventually stalled and the.academia collapsed. Yes, Europe out produced them. This was an historical process, for example one factor was the invasion of outsiders on the Middle.East which put great stress on their system as I think Talon pointed out. Europe remained relatively free of this. Secondly.european resources ran out soon and they entered a state of such tough competition that they had to expand and refine their systems which led to imperialisation and colonisation. We Asians had abundance and never really.came out of our own regions the way the europeans did. This process fueled european academia as knowledge became power especially with the refinement of military technology. So why are we fighting?

 

[Dubious]

Which the Arabs themselves used research and knowledge of the greeks and romans.
Stop claiming credit where there is none.
Research and knowledge always moves from one place to another. Stop implying even indirectly that Arabs/Iranians somehow were crucial, because if they were to Western research, then the Greeks and Romans were crucial to the Arabs and Iranians incremental knowledge.

Yes but the MUSLIMS (not sure why all you people love to say Arabs) are the founding fathers of the FOUNDATIONS of many fields..maybe you do not understand the word foundation...it basically means that they got it right and paved the basics...Greeks like Pythagoras and others are the founding fathers in their own field...and they have been credited but when it comes to Muslims you people get an instant allergic reaction which is very obvious!! Even google will whip you good
List of Islamic scholars described as father or founder of a field
here!! List of Islamic scholars described as father or founder of a field - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wrong.
Iranians take pride because they were drove the science and culture of a particular era, not because they were Muslims.

Looking to partake in someone else's hard work?

And you know this because you went back into the past and interviewed them right....

And very few even go Irani scientist or Iraqi or Syrian...they just say Muslim!


DEAL WITH IT!

 

[jaibi]

I did not jump to any conclusion , I just pointed out a "technical" mistake in your assumption ..
why are you so much obsessed with word "Ayatullah" ??
And which "False Claim" are you talking about , You believe that Muslims did not contribute anything to science ?

I think he is just generalising it a bit too much. All clergy from.all religions has censored some knowledge and our academa never gained independence from the clergy.

 

[Dubious]

Sorry, I was commenting on.another thread.

Talon, @FaujiHistorian @Azlan Haider all I.m asking is that we remain civil. We're all Pakistanis and hence brethren. Let's keep that in mind.

we are civil if someone's misunderstandings does not equal to someone being labelled false claim...I am yet to use such a word against anyone coz I dont pride myself as the all knowledgeable one!

Now we have our own interpretations and we've a right to that but when we are proposing something let's be reasonable and open about it.

I would say that things are not all white or black: yes, Arab Muslims.made great leaps. Yes, they eventually stalled and the.academia collapsed. Yes, Europe out produced them. This was an historical process, for example one factor was the invasion of outsiders on the Middle.East which put great stress on their system as I think Talon pointed out. Europe remained relatively free of this. Secondly.european resources ran out soon and they entered a state of such tough competition that they had to expand and refine their systems which led to imperialisation and colonisation. We Asians had abundance and never really.came out of our own regions the way the europeans did. This process fueled european academia as knowledge became power especially with the refinement of military technology. So why are we fighting?

I think he is just generalising it a bit too much. All clergy from.all religions has censored some knowledge and our academa never gained independence from the clergy.

That is why I talked about Oxford and Cambridge! I have been to Cambridge and know a little of their history and how everyone knows of what the monks and priest did there! Its no secret no idea why gora worshipers (even the common gora addresses it) cant see past it

It was the same mindset which kept the books to tell the students that the earth was flat even years after it was proven to be round....