Slow poisoned academia?

[FaujHistorian]

;;;;
Schools during the golden era of Islam around 1400 were way better than the founding of collages in Cambridge or Oxford...Yes you can do a case study (please dont use biased articles)...so again we are talking about the schools the scholars NOT the extremists whom you see ONLY...

Please name some schools and their scholarly journals whenever you make this statement.

Thank you.

 

[Dubious]

Please name some schools and their scholarly journals whenever you make this statement.

Thank you.

Schools and scholarly journals?

Call yourself a historian...

1stly, journals themselves were introduced only wayyyy after the golden age of Islam...esp when Muslims went into slumber so no idea what scholarly journals you request?!

There are fundamentals of EACH field where Muslims did research and paved the fundamentals for the research done by the West ...

2nd thing is the loss of infrastructure when the crusaders attacked...libraries were the 1st to be burnt..after whatever was stolen! So I am not sure what are you asking me to prove here?!

ESP after you clearly wrote this bit:

Please do not quote any Arabic sounding names to prove them they were Mullahs and Ayatullahs.

Get your act right please!!

Mind you I always say Muslims coz I do not differentiate if they were Iranians, Iraqis, Saudi, Syrian or whatever...Muslims were Muslims...


BTW, I talked about Oxford and Cambridge it was you who brought everything else in...

Any state's history is nothing but lies. before States it was King's story, now its State's story. anyone who has read british history or american text book history knows what I am talking about..

So damn true! If people were allowed to read the history as it happened they would be disgusted with their rulers, generals and not at all inspired...

As for the kings history...many would realize that the king or queen they have now may not even be related to the king back then... yea I am talking about infidelity

 

[FaujHistorian]

Schools and scholarly journals?

Call yourself a historian...

1stly, journals themselves were introduced only wayyyy after the golden age of Islam...esp when Muslims went into slumber so no idea what scholarly journals you request?!

There are fundamentals of EACH field where Muslims did research and paved the fundamentals for the research done by the West ...

2nd thing is the loss of infrastructure when the crusaders attacked...libraries were the 1st to be burnt..after whatever was stolen! So I am not sure what are you asking me to prove here?!

..

So your statement "Schools during the golden era of Islam around 1400 were way better than the founding of collages in Cambridge or Oxford.",

what just that?


A statement?

 

[Leader]

Hundreds of years before Darwin, in the 800s the Iraqi zoologist al-Jahiz pioneered the idea of natural selection as an explanation for how animals adapted traits that suited their environments.

This page is from al-Jahiz's "Book of Animals".

@Talon

 

[Dubious]

So your statement "Schools during the golden era of Islam around 1400 were way better than the founding of collages in Cambridge or Oxford.",

what just that?


A statement?

Please read my whole post here let me help you:

There are fundamentals of EACH field where Muslims did research and paved the fundamentals for the research done by the West ...

Not sure how you missed that

Please keep it civil, fauji clearly addressed you respectfully and followed his premise calmly. There is no need to be passionate at the expense of a civil exchange.

Thank you.

I beg your pardon? Have you read any of his posts in other threads? He jumps to conclusions so I told him to get his act right at least maybe this time! and then he clearly wrote this so I wont be able to give any examples how is that fair and NOT PASSIONATE about how much phobia he carries:

Please do not quote any Arabic sounding names to prove them they were Mullahs and Ayatullahs.

BUT somehow that was acceptable

 

[Leader]

So damn true! If people were allowed to read the history as it happened they would be disgusted with their rulers, generals and not at all inspired...

As for the kings history...many would realize that the king or queen they have now may not even be related to the king back then... yea I am talking about infidelity

the problem with Pakistani students is that we dont read much, if we do general study for comparison purpose, we would get to know how rotten other history books are.

lakin woh kehtay hain na gher ki murgi daal barabar. plus some people have inferiority complex and think for a good scholarship cum stipend/employment chance with such views, as it sells, my own teacher got a scholarship from Oxford to write a thesis on root causes of Islamic extremism in rural areas and it solutions.

 

[jaibi]

It is true in terms of knowledge the arabs moved forward from the greeks. However, that is not the.complete story. The European universities were manned.and founded by priests but they eventually maintained a freedom from the other forms of authority and became one of their.own. this is why the americans too prospered as they had a model to follow. The theories that completley challenged and violated the social.norms of the society were conceived and protected due to a live academia which was a direct result of.universities: Freud, Marx, Darwin all faced severe opposition to their ideas from the societal conservative forces and had there been no universities and hence academia we wouldn't have had modernity which places reason as the.ultimate authority.

Now what happened to.the Arabs is well documented: scholars were supported by the emir, Sultan or caliph and for that they needed to have a certain conformity to their authority. This is the sole.reason.why in a matter of about 300 to 500 years the Europeans out matched their Arab teachers. Secondly, I do not want to.attract controversy but there is a thesis stating that with Imam Al-Ghazali's criticism of reason and science and his turn towards spiritual matters led to a.whole movement amongst scholars who would follow him im the same direction, this too led to an 'intellectual collapse' as it is called in the Arab civilization.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Please read my whole post here let me help you:



Not sure how you missed that


I beg your pardon? Have you read any of his posts in other threads? He jumps to conclusions so I told him to get his act right at least maybe this time! and then he clearly wrote this so I wont be able to give any examples how is that fair and NOT PASSIONATE about how much phobia he carries:



BUT somehow that was acceptable

So you can't support your statement.

"Schools during the golden era of Islam around 1400 were way better than the founding of collages in Cambridge or Oxford.",




Only thing that comes close to your assertion was never a "school" in anwyay.


It was called "House of wisdom" or in Arabic Bayt al-Hikma of 9th century. It was essentially a library, research center, all combined into one.


Most of the work was focused on translating greek, roman and Sanskrit books.


However it did produce some really great researchers and authors.

Too bad the thing fell into disrepair in few decades all thanks to al-Mutawakkil's more literal interpretation of the Qur'an and Hadith.


So in some sense there is no equivalent to Oxford and Cambridge that ever existed in Iraq and not at all 1400 years ago.



Please do not spread ignorance in the name of Islam.


Thank you.

 

[Dubious]

the problem with Pakistani students is that we dont read much, if we do general study for comparison purpose, we would get to know how rotten other history books are.

lakin woh kehtay hain na gher ki murgi daal barabar. plus some people have inferiority complex and think for a good scholarship cum stipend/employment chance with such views, as it sells, my own teacher got a scholarship from Oxford to write a thesis on root causes of Islamic extremism in rural areas and it solutions.

I remember those scholarships were hot cakes...being sold off to Arabs and Pakistanis....coz they thought a Pakistani doing the research and publishing will get more sell than a gora doing it!! It was big news and propaganda!

Another way to look at it maybe a gora might not be able to collect the "required and true data" as a local would..not sure but yea I remember those scholarships were a big hit after 9/11 when all the analysts were giving feedback without every being in an Arab environment or a Pakistani household

 

[jaibi]

the problem with Pakistani students is that we dont read much, if we do general study for comparison purpose, we would get to know how rotten other history books are.

lakin woh kehtay hain na gher ki murgi daal barabar. plus some people have inferiority complex and think for a good scholarship cum stipend/employment chance with such views, as it sells, my own teacher got a scholarship from Oxford to write a thesis on root causes of Islamic extremism in rural areas and it solutions.

I would disagree, leader, and say the main problem is that our student and our teacher is not actually free to think: we do not allow each other to.explore in the fear that we would.become non-conformists.

 

[FaujHistorian]

It is true in terms of knowledge the arabs moved forward from the greeks. However, that is not the.complete story. The European universities were manned.and founded by priests but they eventually maintained a freedom from the other forms of authority and became one of their.own. this is why the americans too prospered as they had a model to follow. The theories that completley challenged and violated the social.norms of the society were conceived and protected due to a live academia which was a direct result of.universities: Freud, Marx, Darwin all faced severe opposition to their ideas from the societal conservative forces and had there been no universities and hence academia we wouldn't have had modernity which places reason as the.ultimate authority.

Now what happened to.the Arabs is well documented: scholars were supported by the emir, Sultan or caliph and for that they needed to have a certain conformity to their authority. This is the sole.reason.why in a matter of about 300 to 500 years the Europeans out matched their Arab teachers. Secondly, I do not want to.attract controversy but there is a thesis stating that with Imam Al-Ghazali's criticism of reason and science and his turn towards spiritual matters led to a.whole movement amongst scholars who would follow him im the same direction, this too led to an 'intellectual collapse' as it is called in the Arab civilization.

Well said.

Ghazali of 12th century is attributed for moving away from Greek and Roman philosophy of rationalism. Instead Ghazali proposed to follow Quran and Sunnah for interpreting this world.


However the rot had already started in the 9th century when Mutazzali Islam was replaced with Sharia based Islam.



Peace

 

[jaibi]

I remember those scholarships were hot cakes...being sold off to Arabs and Pakistanis....coz they thought a Pakistani doing the research and publishing will get more sell than a gora doing it!! It was big news and propaganda!

Another way to look at it maybe a gora might not be able to collect the "required and true data" as a local would..not sure but yea I remember those scholarships were a big hit after 9/11 when all the analysts were giving feedback without every being in an Arab environment or a Pakistani household

They actually wanted people from within the region to put up an indigenous perspective, it follows the influence of Critical Theory on the social sciences in particular. It.s still being done in almost all other fields as an example see the ZEF programme of Bonn University.

 

[FaujHistorian]

I would disagree, leader, and say the main problem is that our student and our teacher is not actually free to think: we do not allow each other to.explore in the fear that we would.become non-conformists.

Well said.

Rational thinking is discouraged, nay destroyed by the fellow Pakistanis.

Instead faith based mumbo jumbo is peddled in the hopes of securing front row seats in Jannat.


peace

 

[Dubious]

It is true in terms of knowledge the arabs moved forward from the greeks. However, that is not the.complete story. The European universities were manned.and founded by priests but they eventually maintained a freedom from the other forms of authority and became one of their.own. this is why the americans too prospered as they had a model to follow. The theories that completley challenged and violated the social.norms of the society were conceived and protected due to a live academia which was a direct result of.universities: Freud, Marx, Darwin all faced severe opposition to their ideas from the societal conservative forces and had there been no universities and hence academia we wouldn't have had modernity which places reason as the.ultimate authority.

and that is all I was pointing out before @FaujHistorian brought in his phobia...

Now what happened to.the Arabs is well documented: scholars were supported by the emir, Sultan or caliph and for that they needed to have a certain conformity to their authority. This is the sole.reason.why in a matter of about 300 to 500 years the Europeans out matched their Arab teachers. Secondly, I do not want to.attract controversy but there is a thesis stating that with Imam Al-Ghazali's criticism of reason and science and his turn towards spiritual matters led to a.whole movement amongst scholars who would follow him im the same direction, this too led to an 'intellectual collapse' as it is called in the Arab civilization.

HEARD of it but never managed to find an authentic source...coz the "thesis" was written many years later from a man with his own thinking then back then as to what really was going on...

 

[jaibi]

@ Talon you seem to be attacking the source that is the poster with such remarks as keeping his act.right. @Faujihistorian is attacking your claim, not you.