Skewed Islamic culture hampers growth and success

[GumNaam]

The right to interprate The Quran & Sunnah needs to be snatched away from the mullah mafia and given to mainstream contemporary university scholars of Islam INCLUDING female scholars. not a bunch of mullahs educated in madrassahs ran on a 1000 year old syllabus & curriculum. standards of education have gone far FAR ahead today.

 

[Azadkashmir]

wat we want is progress in tech not progress in western decadence.

 

[PakPrinciples]

From my family's experience I wouldn't agree with that.

For example in my family everyone of our women are educated and they're better educated than the generation before them.

I believe my grandmother was at best a high school grad while my mother and aunts went on to get BA's and their daughters and nieces are all MsC's and PhD's working as engineers and doctors some in the West and others in Pakistan.

Education has always been important for our family.

I've watched western movies together with my nieces and female cousins, they're all politically aware and engaged women and most now are happy successful career women and mothers.

In terms of internet usage from my experience 99% of the time people use the internet for non constructive purposes making it more of a liability than an actual learning tool.

We're your typical proud Pakistani Muslim Punjabi with Kashmiri roots army family.

Growing up in Canada though some things I've come across personally and noticed in general are:

1. Pakistani parents aren't focusing and directing their children's education particularly towards in demand careers. Most families direct their children into the same career path that the father usually took (ex. Engineer) unless they show a real knack or passion for another field or if there is a more lucrative in demand career available but a lot of parents either aren't doing that. This is particularly important considering kids have no clue what to do, how to save and invest they need guidance.
2. Some families aren't educating their kids on their culture. My parents didn't force me to speak Urdu/Punjabi at home because they thought it would impede my ability to succeed at school despite me having skipped a grade and I actually wound up forgetting how to speak my own language and they took a hands off approach here during my teen years and I wound up getting involved in destructive behaviors. Thankfully learning more about Islam brought me back on the right path.
3. Parents aren't spending enough quality time with their children like going cycling as a family or on hikes maybe a fishing trip or kayaking and camping. This robs children of a close emotional connection essential to fostering a healthy parent child relationship.
4. Some parents are way too pushy and overbearing which causes kids to lash out and though parents aren't supposed to be friends when you have a distant mother and father who only order you around all the while you have no extended family by your side you feel alone and seek out companionship which is usually with losers who impede your development

I honestly don't even know if this is in line with the original topic of discussion.

 

[CriticalThinker02]

If that's the case then on the tech front, conservative cultures should have been able to close the tech gap with the West in the last 60 years.....but that has not happened only Korea,Japan and China have been able to do so...and out of them China is very irreligious, same with Japan....and in China the sexual mores are not as strict as in poorer religious countries....In China they donot kill girls on their wedding night if they are found out not to be virgin, as is the case in certain parts of India and in certain extremely religious countries ...

if there is a correlation between extreme conservatism and technological progress, it has not been showing up in charts and graphs

There are many factors that leads to technological progress, this is just one factor, many Muslim countries have progress technologically like Turkey and many Muslims countries have progressed economically like Saudi Arabia, UAE and Malaysia, simplifying and or completely eliminating other factors that could stop a country from progressing Technologically and or Economically is extremely foolish from your part, here is an example in the 1950's the CIA deposed a democratically elected government in Iran and installed an extremely corrupt and incompetent military dictator who oppressed his people for decades and did nothing for the development of Iran which in turn led to the Iranian revolution in the 1980's, these factors contribute to the success and failures of any country whether it be technological and or economic.

 

[Azadkashmir]

There are many factors that leads to technological progress, this is just one factor, many Muslim countries have progress technologically like Turkey and many Muslims countries have progressed economically like Saudi Arabia, UAE and Malaysia, simplifying and or completely eliminating other factors that could stop a country from progressing Technologically and or Economically is extremely foolish from your part, here is an example in the 1950's the CIA deposed a democratically elected government in Iran and installed an extremely corrupt and incompetent military dictator who oppressed his people for decades and did nothing for the development of Iran which in turn led to the Iranian revolution in the 1980's, these factors contribute to the success and failures of any country whether it be technological and or economic.

shah although corrupt, did progress iran but he went independent and the west got scared iran is developing fast and becoming too independent so shah had to go. they thought putting in ayotullah will lead to backwardness but it backfired ayatollah turned on them.

 

[SQ8]

I disagree with the premise of “Islamic culture” since Islam in essence has no “culture”. It has broad guidance that adopts to any culture be it its origins of Arabia, the tribes of the African horn or Japan. The culture that we get is our own that can in its own regression be packaged as Islam and then blamed for ruining society.

Pakistani culture is regressive and mentality destructive for all its citizens - whether it uses Islam as the adopted vessel to spread its parts of oppression, violence and barbarism has nothing to do with Islam but with the Pakistani society heritage and people.

 

[Sinnerman108]

The open fornication of the western world is a recent phenomenon, compare it with the west of 100 years back and the difference is day and night, the family life is an essence of any civilisation and these policies, political and cultural shift will eventually catch up to them, the success of the western world have mostly been because they ruled the world through their colonial expansion and the wealth they amassed over the centuries from their rule, that wealth is slowly eroding overtime towards major population centres of the world mostly Asia, compare the growth and rise of China within the last 30 years and it pales in comparison to the US growth, China used more concrete in the last 3 years than the US did in the entire 20th century.

Its amazing out of so many other things being discussed, you are stuck at fornication !

Look at Islamic societies like Malaysia, Turkey, Algeria, Jordan, Are you suggesting that these societies are making progress at the expense of easy sex ?

Fact of the matter is that it happens all over the world, happens in Pakistan as easy as anywhere else.
Fact again, that the nations which consume alcohol, drugs, "FORNICATE" are ahead of everyone in science and development. So may I request you to think beyond what exists between the legs ?

I disagree with the premise of “Islamic culture” since Islam in essence has no “culture”. It has broad guidance that adopts to any culture be it its origins of Arabia, the tribes of the African horn or Japan. The culture that we get is our own that can in its own regression be packaged as Islam and then blamed for ruining society.

Pakistani culture is regressive and mentality destructive for all its citizens - whether it uses Islam as the adopted vessel to spread its parts of oppression, violence and barbarism has nothing to do with Islam but with the Pakistani society heritage and people.

I can agree to that argument, culture forms around a particular group of people and geography.
However you may also agree that Islamic commands are bent and used propagate a false narrative.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Pakistan struggles with massive shortages in Middle Class Jobs , often Education Degree holders are left with no Jobs locally

Considering that the Males of the country already don't have necessary good chances for them to earn a living , it is unfair to claim , the Women don't get enough chance to work.

The Male themselves don't have ample Jobs available to them which can be considered good paying Job

• if we create 5,000,000 Million Jobs Monthly or more may be we can start to discuss Women Guaranteed Jobs

The Women are already doing tremendous responsibility by anchoring the Home Administration
Working in Schools and Hospitals or Army or even Banks or Service Sector


Don't blame , limitation in performance by Political Parties to Vitalize Economy to create jobs , to Islamic Faith

• Is Steeles Mills closed for 10 years because a Quranic verse?
• Did a Hadith called for Railways and PIA to under perform ?
• Did Any Islamic study stated , to close the circular Railways in Karachi , or don't develop infrastructure?

Where are the Jobs ???

• Where are the Professional Gardening Jobs for Residential Areas ?
• Where are the Jobs for Professional painting , exterior or interior for residential Areas ?
• Where are the Jobs for properly discarding Garbage in neighborhood ?
• Where are the Job in Professional Recycling and Sewages waste cleanup ?
• Where are the Jobs for Fitness Centers ?
• Where are the Jobs for Nutritional Specialist ?
• Where are the Jobs for Parks Maintenance ?
• Where are the Jobs for Cinema Staff?

All these sectors have no presence in Pakistan​

You ask anyone in Pakistan for "Professional Contractor Job listed above" and they start to point finger left and right because there is no culture for these Professions to be taken seriously



The issue is Lazy , easy going attitude of Politicians, Judges and care takes
If a Big fat LOAN is taking from outside , some contractor will come from OUTSIDE then stuff will get done on time



Feminist Ideology is generally of no value , example the ads run by Gul Ahmed etc.

 

[Sinnerman108]

I am mostly appalled looking at majority of the remarks,
maybe these posters are too young to retrospect objectively.

Majority of a child's personality forming time is spent with the mother.
If the mother doesn't have the vision not the exposure,
what training and what vision would she be able to impart to her children ?

Except for the usual rants and survival problems between females ?

I have never blamed women, I never will; at the same time It is important to understand and acknowledge the problem.

 

[Iltutmish]

Majority of a child's personality forming time is spent with the mother.
If the mother doesn't have the vision not the exposure,
what training and what vision would she be able to impart to her children ?

Chill. My mother has no real school education and still managed us kids well and gave us the drive to achieve more in life than a takeway job. You know how? By giving us a STRONG MUSLIM identity, you have to be the best because you are Muslim, we need these kind of women. But all our women do is having family drama 24/7. Whose fault is this?

The worth of a women is not determined by her fancy degrees or her paychecks for working for other men.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

There is generally less jobs available , in the Job pool competition is high that is reality
Create more Jobs !!! More people will work Men or Some more women

We have 10 year old Boy , working on a Samosa Stall , making an income for his family
so things are rough in economy

Not every one has a Mama Chacha , 10 acre farming land or like Bilwal owning 20,000+ acres or knows how many villages

So the argument for this should be

"Pakistan has low Job creation figures on Monthly basis , due to Political Parties lack of initiative "

Simply talking about just women , and not including the large demographic of unemployed men is a flawed argument

And then blaming it some how to Islamic values is flawed


If you have 5 Million Male Engineers sitting unemployed , and then you add another 5 million unemployed Women engineers ,it is of no help to economy because the country is not creating jobs for Engineering , may be if Pakistan did more research on Engine that is another story

 

[Baghial]

I am going to discuss a prominent but overlooked reason for the downward spiral faced by majority of muslims nations.

A boy is raised different than a girl, at least from grade 8, or puberty on wards if not before.

This is manifested primarily in the concept of "chadar and chaar diwari" that restricts girls when it comes to exposure and by large over riding any influence that internet may have positively.

The male child at the same time, is exposed to the world and develops personality traits which are based on the foreign influences. Thus causing a gulf between the female and male child.

From henceforth until graduation the male child keeps experiencing and developing newer experiencing, and the gulf between the male and female keeps increasing.

The rude awakening to reality comes when it time for marriage, and the family sets a match based on what they think the boy and the girl are like, and what they aspire. This maybe true in case of a female child, but is not the case in case of the male child who has had strong influences since he went past grade 10.

The girl's vision is mostly restricted to the "home" and considers the home her universe and battle space should her position be challenged or she should choose to challenge the mother or sisters in law.

This creates a funny and unfortunate relationship, which is possible to continue only if the boy giveup and surrenders what he has learned ( right or wrong) or face the hell that the women create due to their refusal to accept or change.

The 50% of the population's inability to change, eventually drags the whole society down, impeding growth or exploration of newer paradigms.

Share your thoughts please.

1 by one we are dismantling our culture ,

 

[Old School]

The main issue is the various versions of Islam which are in practice today. It doesn't matter what is written in the books. We have to judge it by looking at the general practice and what we see is not very encouraging. Religions should not become a business model for some quarters and government should not allow it either.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Once 95% of male have jobs , and 5% unemployment rate then we can discuss further

 

[Bilal9]

I saw several pages of debates going on but very few who touched on the real issue (my view) why Muslim nations are backward.

We are at the same stage (or even more backward) being Islamic nations (on the subject of emancipation of women) today than at the time of Muhammad (SAW), our prophet. He had no issue marrying a businesswoman. Islam at that time laid out very advanced rules for women's independence from men, far more advanced than many other religions.

Situation is unfortunately reversed today. We Muslims have let our cultural biases today take over and (in backward village situations especially, feel that women "are precious" should be "protected as chattel".

Well - there will be no developing Muslim nations if half of the workforce sits at home, slaving over meals and making babies at spare time. Overpopulation is a dangerous curse for many Muslim countries.

The idea in Bangladesh (as floated by BNP back in the day, early eighties) was to encourage women's education so they can gain income self-sufficiency. Instead of sitting at home and finally getting married off at 14 or 16, young women were encouraged to attend school, in exchange of sacks of rice to the families. There were (and still are) more girls than boys in primary, secondary education levels in Bangladesh. For families, they now understand that a woman wage-earner actually helps the family before (and even after) marriage.

We were lucky in Bangladesh that we needed massive numbers of women seamstresses for the apparel industries in the early 80's and these secondary-educated women joined the workforce in great numbers, ensuring their own financial independence. The picture for women changed forever in Bangladesh.

A welcome side benefit was the lowering of fertility rates when women became wage earners, which is currently is lower than India. India was never our benchmark, but this is to placate Bhakt propaganda about Bangladeshi Muslims having more babies than Hindus. Bangladesh will eventually need this crucial lowering of population as the GDP and exports go up further, all of which worked in harmonious interdependent fashion.

The lesson from all this is societal attitudes about women being dependents of men and being chattels need to change in Muslim nations. Our holy book and Sunnah is not in disagreement on this.

Of course I am not talking about middle class on up - I'm talking about lower middle class, and on downward.