Sikh and Hindu officers usher in a new era in Pakistani Army

[Tiki Tam Tam]

A caliphate, (from theArabic خلافة or khilaafah), is the Islamic form of government representing the political unity and leadership of the Muslim world. The head of state's position (Caliph) is based on the notion of a successor to the Islamic prophet Muhammad's political authority.

According to Sunnis he is ideally a member of the Quraysh tribe elected by Muslims or their representatives;[1] and according to Shia Islam, an Imam descended in a line from the Ahl al-Bayt. From the time of Muhammad until 1924, successive and contemporary caliphates were held by various dynasties, including the Umayyads (who were driven from Damascus to Córdoba), the Abbasids (who ruled from Baghdad and drove away the Umayyads from Damascus), the Fatimids (who ruled from Cairo), and finally the Ottomans.

Caliphate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If the Khalifas came from a dynasty, then where is the democracy involved?

It does appear that it was more of a dynastic rule than democracy!

It is obvious that everyone of age did not vote! And to state so that everyone of age voted apparently is a fudge and a far cry from the bare boned reality!

Same line of argument that the word Pakistan is self explanatory as Islamic when in actuality the Islamic aspect was added well after Jinnah!

 

[Flintlock]

Democracy as you see in present has never always been like this. It has matured over time.
A Khaliphah is appointed for life time. Every one who has come of age is eligible to vote. The voting takes place in Masjids as it is the Center of Muslim Society. Every Muslim is eligible. With any discrimination of color or creed.

You have made a couple of interesting points here:

1. The present democracy has matured over time, which means that the Islamic one was imperfect? If it was imperfect, then how can it be the perfect Islamic society?

2. Can you provide me some evidence, historical, archaeological etc. which proves that voting took place Masjids during the first 40 years of Islam?

Articles written by university professors, historians or social scientists are perfectly acceptable. If you have some web links that show Islamic records of that era which provide such evidence, then that is fine too.
If any articles are available on Islamic websites which talk about voting and elections during that period, even that is acceptable.
If any Islamic scriptures, like Quran, Hadith, mentions democracy, voting and other details, please feel free to add that information as well.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

The voting takes place in Masjids as it is the Center of Muslim Society. Every Muslim is eligible. With any discrimination of color or creed

And yet its is Dynastic?!

Oxymoron at best!

China also claims to be a democracy!

 

[Malang]

good move - nationalists
bad move - islamists

 

[Vinod2070]

In Turkey I believe that all the male relatives of the Sultan (who could challenge or assassinate him) were imprisoned behind walls till the time of the Sultan's death. They were almost a mental case if and when they managed to come out.

A quote:

The Ottoman Sultan Mustafa (1592-1639) may have been retarded from birth, but the years he spent in the "Cage", a large building without windows, worsened his mental condition. While giggling like an imbecile, he was declared Sultan twice. He ran through the palace corridors, crying out to his murdered nephew to relieve him from the burden of sovereignty.

When Sultan Ahmed I (1590-1617) came to the throne in 1603, he left his 11-year-old brother Mustafa in the "Cage", and he had a wall built to block the entrance. Mustafa was possibly already mentally retarded before he was incarcerated and the psychosocial depravation he experienced in the "Cage" can only have worsened his mental condition. He is described as a "paranoid", because he was overwhelmed by fear that he would be deposed or murdered - in itself no strange behaviour considering his circumstances.

Sultan Ahmed I used to take a different woman to his bed each night, although he subsequently favoured two women: Hadice and Kösem (1589-1651). Hadice was the mother of Osman II (1604-1622) and Kösem gave birth to Murad IV (1612-1640), Bayezid and Mad Ibrahim (1615-1648). When Ahmed died of typhus in November 1617, at the age of 28, his most powerful concubine, Kösem, opposed the succession of his eldest son, Osman, because she was afraid that Osman would execute her sons. It was due to her influence that the completely insane Mustafa was released from the "Cage" and declared Sultan. It was said that he had visions and some saw in him a holy man. However, it soon became clear that Mustafa was incapable of governing. He appointed two favourite young pages as governors of Cairo and Damascus and replaced one of his high officers by a farmer who had offered him something to drink when he was out hunting. After only three months, Mustafa was dethroned by the eunuch corps and again imprisoned in the "Cage" accompanied by two female slaves *.

Biography of Sultan Mad Mustafa I of the Ottoman Empire (1592-1639)

Hardly the idea of a democratic ideal Islamic state won't you say?

 

[Comet]

A caliphate, (from theArabic خلافة or khilaafah), is the Islamic form of government representing the political unity and leadership of the Muslim world. The head of state's position (Caliph) is based on the notion of a successor to the Islamic prophet Muhammad's political authority.

According to Sunnis he is ideally a member of the Quraysh tribe elected by Muslims or their representatives;[1] and according to Shia Islam, an Imam descended in a line from the Ahl al-Bayt. From the time of Muhammad until 1924, successive and contemporary caliphates were held by various dynasties, including the Umayyads (who were driven from Damascus to Córdoba), the Abbasids (who ruled from Baghdad and drove away the Umayyads from Damascus), the Fatimids (who ruled from Cairo), and finally the Ottomans.

Caliphate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If the Khalifas came from a dynasty, then where is the democracy involved?

It does appear that it was more of a dynastic rule than democracy!

It is obvious that everyone of age did not vote! And to state so that everyone of age voted apparently is a fudge and a far cry from the bare boned reality!

Same line of argument that the word Pakistan is self explanatory as Islamic when in actuality the Islamic aspect was added well after Jinnah!

No there is no dynasty. Tell me which dynasty does 1st 2nd and 3rd caliph belonged.

 

[Comet]

You have made a couple of interesting points here:

1. The present democracy has matured over time, which means that the Islamic one was imperfect? If it was imperfect, then how can it be the perfect Islamic society?

2. Can you provide me some evidence, historical, archaeological etc. which proves that voting took place Masjids during the first 40 years of Islam?

Articles written by university professors, historians or social scientists are perfectly acceptable. If you have some web links that show Islamic records of that era which provide such evidence, then that is fine too.
If any articles are available on Islamic websites which talk about voting and elections during that period, even that is acceptable.
If any Islamic scriptures, like Quran, Hadith, mentions democracy, voting and other details, please feel free to add that information as well.

The current democracy matured over time but the current democracy started just few centuries ago but the democracy I am talking about is 1400 years ago.
By the way current democracy in the eyes of Winston Churchill "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried. "

 

[Vinod2070]

No there is no dynasty. Tell me which dynasty does 1st 2nd and 3rd caliph belonged.

For now, lets leave out the first 40 years from the discussion. Lets discuss the 1400 years after that.

 

[Comet]

In Turkey I believe that all the male relatives of the Sultan (who could challenge or assassinate him) were imprisoned behind walls till the time of the Sultan's death. They were almost a mental case if and when they managed to come out.

A quote:


Biography of Sultan Mad Mustafa I of the Ottoman Empire (1592-1639)

Hardly the idea of a democratic ideal Islamic state won't you say?

Thats what I have been saying. cant you understand??? 70% means that there was no democracy but other system was almost the same.

 

[Vinod2070]

For some reason, I find Pakistanis to be a big fan of Winston Churchill. They quote him extensively.

Why is that? Is he accepted as a very knowledgeable authority on such matters here?

 

[Comet]

For now, lets leave out the first 40 years from the discussion. Lets discuss the 1400 years after that.

Well the other 1400 years are well 1400 years. One has to go through the history. But the point is same. The governments were not democratic but the system was quite similar to the one employed by the Prophet(SAW)

 

[Flintlock]

The current democracy matured over time but the current democracy started just few centuries ago but the democracy I am talking about is 1400 years ago.

It doesn't matter how old it is. It still has to fit the modern definition of democracy.

In any case the word "democracy" is derived from the greek "demos" (people) and "kratos" (rule).
The origins of modern democracy lie in Athenian democracy practiced by the ancient Greeks. There is ample historical evidence available for this.
Still older is the oligarchy practiced in ancient India, which was a form of limited democracy or "rule by consensus".

Tell me, what is the Arabic word for democracy?

 

[Comet]

For some reason, I find Pakistanis to be a big fan of Winston Churchill. They quote him extensively.

Why is that? Is he accepted as a very knowledgeable authority on such matters here?

My God.
What are you made up of?

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

umairp

Don't deflect with inanities.

We are keen to learn.

Please focus yourself and explain to benefit those who do not know.

At every step you are giving fallcious statements and then you fudge and bumble and then you dodge.

Take a grip over yourself and tell us the actuals.

 

[Flintlock]

By the way current democracy in the eyes of Winston Churchill "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried. "

He's right. Democracy is a horrible form of government.

The problem is, we don't have a better option than that.