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Should we make a Petition to change the Devanagari script of Bangla!?

Are we ready for this? Will you support the Bangladesh people for this CHANGE?


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It's natural for Indian(Hindus) to highlight their culture and heritage but it's saddening and disappointing when certain Islamic named Bangladeshi take the side of Hinduism instead of Islam. They make me sick.

Adopting Arabic based script makes sense because it's right thing to do to save our identity from Bharti aggression. This is the only way our next generations will grow up as Muslim instead of those sagol Tagore loving Islamic named murtids based in Dacca. Keep in mind Bangladesh is only nation surrounded by maloon.

I remembered my grand mother used a lot more Farsi words in Syloti language compare to us-the diluted lost current generation.


The new generation are well aware of what is happening and are Islamically inclined, but they take no interest in this nirbachon business as they don't care, they are aware of oppression occurring in the Muslim world particularly Palestine and Syria, this nirbachon business with Indians, Pakistanis and to a lesser extent Bangladesh is discussed rarely amongst youth.
 
See this is what I don't get, why do the Indians have an issue with us adopting us Nastaliq script which was used by our dadar dadar dada, even their forefathers probably used it. My grandfather was part of EPR back in the days he knows how to speak farsi basha. We the Bengalis are known to be multilingual, juggling Hindi Urdu and Bangla, this is evident in western countries.

I still hold the view that it is too late to change the script, unless measures are taken to gradually integrate the script in Bangladesh, I think both can co-exist as then people have the option to read one of the two.

@Saiful Islam, let us separate the academic from the emotional.

The emotional first - Bangladesh is a free country. It is far more homogeneous than many other countries in the vicinity, and has a better claim to being a nation-state than either Pakistan or India, in increasing order of distance from Westphalia. If the people, or even a section of the people, decide to cultivate their language in one script rather than other, whose business is it but theirs? If people of similar ethnicity in another country wish to continue with their original script, they, too, have a perfect right to do what they want. Why on earth should either set start obsessing over the other?

Regarding the academic point of view, evidence is clear that Bangla with a strong mixture of imported words from Persian, Turkish and Arabic existed long ago, however, this was not necessarily accompanied simultaneously by adopting a right-to-left script. It appears from the records - or rather, my personal interpretation of those records - that the following happened:
  1. Bangla was interspersed with Turkish, Persian and Arabic words from 1201 onwards;
  2. This happened at the level of the court. Muslims were largely located in the western parts of Bengal, and the gentry at court used language other than Bangla, not being Bangla speakers themselves;
  3. This situation continued until the Mughal conquest of Bengal.
  4. The rapid rise in demographics led to a populating of east Bengal; this population was largely Muslim, and polyglot;
  5. The written script may have changed around that time; that is not to say that there were no such initiatives ever tried before, during the period of the Sultanate, especially during the period of the Husain Shahi Sultanate;
  6. These were all essentially incremental in nature, and led to some 5,000 + Persian and other loan words entering the Bangla language;
  7. There was a re-creation of an essentially mythological Bangla by the Fort William College and its pandit interlocutors. This entirely artificial re-creation led to an instant reaction among Bengali Muslims;
  8. It was this reaction that created today's Musulmani Bangla. All that its proponents say about it is true; it was used, it was oriented to Persian and Arabic script, it was confined to Muslims; it was in wide usage among them, until as recently as two generations ago, and it gave them a sense of identity when it was under threat due to the Sanskritised Bangla that drove the Bengal Renaissance.
I believe that this covers most of the territory.
 
@kalu_miah God dayyum!! How am I supposed to read ALL those information you posted here in this thread!?
Unfortunately, it seems that the Arab loving jamaatis and the razakaars are the ones who are getting eliminated from the scene first.

Typical maura ignorant Indian. Anyone who identifies themselves as Muslim becomes Razakaars or Jamaatis. Got nothing more to say about intolerant bigots.
Mahmud Ali was a Bengali-Assamese politician in British India, in East Bengal/East Pakistan, and then in modern Pakistan. He was the secretary-general of the All-India Muslim League (Assam) with Bhashani as its president. During the Freedom Movement he worked towards making Assam a part of the eastern wing of Pakistan but a referendum was not giving in the province. He later concentrated his efforts to make Sylhet a part of Pakistan and the referendum was a success..After the creation of Pakistan, and after Jinnah and Liaquat passed away, he left the Muslim League as he saw the government drifting away from the needs of the people. He then founded Pakistan's first secular political party the Ganatantri Dal. The Dal demanded equal rights for all citizens regardless of their religion, abolition of feudalism, rights for women, and the demand for Bangla as a national language along with Urdu. He also published a Bangla language newspaper the Nao Belal which played an important role in propagating Bengali rights. The Dal later merged with the United Front and it won the elections defeating the Muslim League in 1954. He was the sole member of the assembly to speak out against the 'One-Unit' scheme which divided Pakistan into two provinces - East and West Pakistan. After Ayub Khan and the bureacracy imposed military rule in 1958 he spent the next decade fighting for the restoration on parliamentary democracy. He also supported Miss Jinnah in the Presidential elections against Ayub. Ali believed that Bengalis were more politically advanced and wanted a united Pakistan where Bengalis would guide the country with their majority and often said that "the western provinces need Bengal politically and Bengal needs the western provinces economically." He did not approve of Mujib's politics but argued for his release after the Fall of Dacca.

Bangla Language and Script

Mahmud Ali was strongly against any effort to impose Arabic as a language in Pakistan, and did not favour any attempt to change or "Islamasize" the language.

I'm of the same opinion. I think it betrays a degree of insecurity and an inferiority complex when speaking in favour of this absurd change. Also, those advocating the adoption of the Arabic/Farsi script are undermining both their culture and heritage, and the tolerant nature of Islam. Do we hear of Indonesians or Malaysians arguing in favour of this?

Another thing I don't understand is this half-baked attempt to adopt something which religion has nothing to do with. I mean why just change the script? Is the language itself not Indo-Aryan? Either way, I think this childish idea should be tossed away.

Arabic has nothing to do with Islam itself.

Lastly, just in case you were wondering, I'm an ethnic Bengali who grew up in Pakistan.

Listen the thing is, as a Muslim I refuse to write in the same or similar script as it is written in Hindu Sanskrit Vedas. If you as Muslim think of Vedas more highly of Quran then your brain is literally screwed. Anyway we were just talking about adopting Nastaliq script (not Naskh), but the language won't be changed. And why won't you want that? Why would you want to protect the Hindu marka script?

And you know most renowned authors and poets in Bangla Literature are all West Bengali Hindus even if Bangladesh also have literary geniuses they don't get that much recognition as those Hindus. Because the Bangla education uses their kind of Bangla and so most of us suck at it. Don't you think that is injustice!? West Bengali kind of Bangla is different from us and is difficult for us to understand because their one is so formal and sounds so fake. Why as Bangladeshis would we want to strive for the way Hindu Bangla is spoken or written! **** shudho bhasha! It's not part of Bangladesh! No one here speaks that way! So where does it come from!? Why are we forced to learn that shitty kind of Bangla??

Bangladeshis need to be distinguishable from West Bengal because we are overshadowed by them. We have nothing for our own and everything is based on their standard. What a shame even though BD is a sovereign country of it's own but we are still servants to those West Bangals! Absolutely embarrassing!!

Urdu script derived from Arabic and Farsi. Most Muslims know the Arabic script. So it's no brainer to replaced current Bangla script with Arabic based script example bellow. Average Bangladeshi Muslims can adopt Arabic based script within 3 month max. Having Arabic based script will eliminate Hindu leaning devangiri script and subsequent effect will enable us to revive musalmani Bangla(Farsi based) spoken by our Muslim forefather.

But first Hindu loving Awami league and Tagore worshipping Islamic named murtids Bengali intellectuals must be eliminated from scene.

It's okay brother. Many people are realising this and once again we will soon see the light. Remember, the good always prevail. For now, we should try and spread this message to everyone and make them see the truth.
 
It is embarrassing to read something so utterly jejune.
Dude ..using jejune here is utterly preposterous...isn't everyone here a jackass erudite?
No one will dare to quote your logical post made earlier:bunny:8-)
 
@kalu_miah



All my references are entirely, and solely, from those supplied by Bangladeshi posters. This is deliberate, to avoid competing to supply references and sources that uniquely support our different stands. Akbar as the first ruler to formally declare Persian as the official language is taken from Alam's Persian Language in Mughal Politics.

Regarding your point

where are the citations? Well-established in what way? As the language of the rulers? As the language of the ruling class? As the language of administration? As a lingua franca?

You are referring to the Sultanate set up by Turkish slaves, as you are aware, having mentioned their fading away as Turkish dynasties; it seems odd that they should use Persian rather than Turkish. I am willing to take your word for it, but it would be nice if you had cited references. Khwarezm and Central Asia were the idiom of Turan, according to Amir Khusrau, not the idiom of Persia: this too is from your reference, Alam.

The Slave Sultans were succeeded by Khalji (Turks) Tughlaq and Lodi: none of them Persian.

The administrative language was never Persian; therefore, Persian was one of the courtly, civil languages used in and around the court of Delhi. It is moot how much it was really used in Bengal. The experience of the other independent sultanates - Gujarat, the successors of the Bahamanis, that is, the Qutb Shahi, the Adil Shahi and the other three - was identical to that of Bengal: some early use of Persian being rapidly replaced by a mixture of Persian and 'Hindavi', meaning the local language.

I sincerely hope you have an open mind on the subject. I do, and my conclusions are increasingly in one direction.

I haven't had time to go through the paper on Turks, Mongols and a Persian ruling class, but shall do so shortly.

Have you had time to go through that paper yet? You may want to look at that thread and another thread I just posted:
Turks, Mongols and a Persian Secretarial Class in Early Delhi Sultanate | Page 3
Nomad vs Sedentary and spread of Islam
 
Eaton's research indicates that the preponderance of Muslims in Bengal at least was not due to migration, but to a demographic explosion linked to the rapid expansion of agriculture in east Bengal.
Here the difference between the conventional 'Migration' theory used to account for the huge preponderance of Muslims in the east of Bengal and what Eaton is referring to is that the conventional theory relates to supposed mass migration from central Asia and from Afghanistan. This does not seem to have happened in Bengal.

Instead, what Eaton is clearly referring to, in the context of his passage, is migration from the western parts of Bengal itself, where the shift away of the waters to eastern branches led to the diminution of trade and industry, as well as an underlying diminution of agriculture. This is when the early moves of European traders to the banks of the Hooghly - the Danish in Srirampore, the French in Chandannagar, the Portuguese and the Dutch in Chinsurah - proved to be false starts due to the gradual drying up of that distributary.
at first you stated that migration is NOT the cause for the preponderance of Muslims in Bengal. and then you said that the type of migration Eaton talks about is actually West-to-East migration within Bengal.

migration is a premium cause for the Muslim population in Bengal. the migrations from Central Asia and Persia-Afghanistan were in many successive waves throughout the centuries, as it happened for the rest of South Asia. each of these waves had this characteristic two components i.e. at first the colonizing force came and later the settlers who took up administrative positions, formed the military, gave dawah or engaged in trades. the West-East migration is not what the paragraph i quoted was referring to
 
at first you stated that migration is NOT the cause for the preponderance of Muslims in Bengal. and then you said that the type of migration Eaton talks about is actually West-to-East migration within Bengal.

migration is a premium cause for the Muslim population in Bengal. the migrations from Central Asia and Persia-Afghanistan were in many successive waves throughout the centuries, as it happened for the rest of South Asia. each of these waves had this characteristic two components i.e. at first the colonizing force came and later the settlers who took up administrative positions, formed the military, gave dawah or engaged in trades. the West-East migration is not what the paragraph i quoted was referring to

I will make a separate thread on this migration issue.

What Eaton is saying is the migration is not the main determining factor for majority Muslim presence in eastern Bengal, because migration happened in other places in South Asia too which are geographically far way from Western South Asia (present day Pakistan). Even before Delhi Sultanate, areas in Pakistan's south have been within previous Muslim empires such as Khilafa Rashidun and Umayyad. So in Sindh and Balochistan Islamic rule was established by 711 AD. Whereas rest of Pakistan came under Ghaznavids by 997 AD. This is the reason why we see Muslim majority in those areas as they had more time for conversion and they are next door neighbor to Muslim West Asia.

From start of Delhi Sultanate with Ghorids in 1211 AD, most parts of rest of South Asia came under Muslim rule, but out of all these areas in South Asia, no place other than eastern Bengal, which is quite faraway from continuous areas of Muslim world, suddenly we see a Muslim majority area. This is Eaton's thesis, to find out the reason why we have this strange situation. The result of course is that during partition we became the most vocal Pakistan supporters and became separate from India as East Pakistan and now we have a country called Bangladesh. Precisely because of this strange phenomenon, close 180 million Bengal Muslims, roughly around 11-12% of global Muslim population is surrounded by a majority non-Muslim population and Bangladesh has such a precarious strategic and geopolitical situation.

From my reading of Eaton's book he makes several things clear:

- Migration of non South Asian Muslims happened in Bengal just like it did in other places of South Asia, during Delhi Sultanate
- but during Mughal era Bengal had a special agrarian expansion project, cutting off jungles to create rice fields from forested areas of eastern Bengal
- in this project, just like other efforts like expansionist war efforts in Southern Hindustan, Mughal's were aided by Rajputs as military allies and Marwary businessmen as money lenders and Hindu and Muslim local Zamindars as absentee landlords or main or sub leaseholder Zamindars, many of whom were former Mughal officials or soldiers
- in the field, the clearing group was led by Pirs or holy men, whereas the people that did the actual work were local fishermen who never before came in contact with Caste Hindu Brahmanic order, such as Adivashi also known and Charal or Chondal, eventually these people slowly became murids of the Pirs and came to the fold of Islam. In some places Mughal administration sponsored Mandirs as well, where these Adivashi's came within Hindu caste system as Shudra's or untouchables. The goal of the Mughals was to increase revenue and they were very religion neutral about accomplishing their imperial goals, as can be seen with their alliance and partnership with Hindu's which is not same as earlier Delhi Sultanate. I have a special explanation about this phenomenon, I believe this has to do it Mongol code of Yassa, first introduced by Chinggis Khaan who started the tradition of extreme tolerance towards all religion and the policy of no forcible conversion:
Yassa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
  1. He [Chingis-Khan] ordered that all religions were to be respected and that no preference was to be shown to any of them. All this he commanded in order that it might be agreeable to Heaven. {al-Makrizi}
  2. Leaders of a religion, lawyers, physicians, scholars, preachers, monks, persons who are dedicated to religious practice, the Muezzin (this latter appearing to be from the later period of Khubilai Khan unless this was further translated there had been no specific reference made to any Muezzin and cities including mosques were levelled), physicians and those who bathe the bodies of the dead are to be freed from public charges. {Al-Makrizi}
Verkhovensky reports that the Yassa begins with an exhortation to honor men of all nations based upon their virtues. This pragmatic admonition is borne out by the ethnic mixture created by Genghis Khan in the Mongolian medieval army for purpose of unity (Ezent Gueligen Mongolyn), the United Mongol Warriors. The origin of the word Mongol, "mong", means "brave". Thus at the time it may have meant as much an army of "the brave", as an army from or made up of people from Mongolia.
  • Genghis Khan consulted teachers of religions, such as imáms and probably rabbis and Christian priests, in compiling his law codex.
Chingiz Khan: The Life and Legacy of an Empire Builder - Anwarul Haque Haqqi - Google Books
Medieval India: From Sultanat to the Mughals Part - II - Satish Chandra - Google Books

The net result is that in Bengal, migration of non-South Asian Muslims and South Asian Muslims of foreign origin (Ashraf) from outside Bengal, happened in much greater scale than in other areas of South Asia. The majority or the bulk of Muslims however were converted from local people, as they were the main work force working under these Muslim pirs. So I believe these Pirs, along with former Mughal officials and soldiers who become Zamindars and sub-lease holder petty Zamindars, are the ancestors of our rural gentry. while Urban Ashraf were exclusively of foreign origin from way back in Sultanate era, a class I believe became much bigger in Bengal than in other areas of South Asia, to run the Mughal agro-industrial project.

One of the difficulty is that most people in South Asia do not keep meticulous ancestry records such as those in Korean Chokbo for example:
Genealogy book - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But genetic tests are getting cheaper, so it will come in handy in the future to get much more detailed data for research in these areas. The other factor to keep in mind is that over time, specially during colonial era, many Ashraf (foreign origin Muslims) became poor and intermarried with converted non-Ashraf Muslims, making the population more and more homogeneous over time and making it difficult to visually detect foreign genetic markers.

I will open a separate thread on this migration issue and present the material from Eaton's book. If we go into this issue too much in this thread, which is mainly about language and scripts, it will clutter this thread too much. As you can see people are already complaining.
 
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It is embarrassing to read something so utterly jejune.

Jejune? Who? Me? Are you saying that to me? I must admit that I have serious ADHD and I can be extremely impulsive at times; never mind.

All the same, you are jus
t another example of a typical narcissistic Indian. There is no point in explaining anything to you people. If I want, I can write it as eloquently and well articulate as I want. But I didn't because I didn't want to. Do you have any problem with that? No one cares.

No one will dare to quote your logical post made earlier

Oh, just shut it.
 
Why don't you start first writting it in Arabic script? I promise I will file a petition first if my darling snow queen writes Bangla in Arabic script. :tup:
 
Jejune? Who? Me? Are you saying that to me? I must admit that I have serious ADHD and I can be extremely impulsive at times; never mind.

All the same, you are jus
t another example of a typical narcissistic Indian. There is no point in explaining anything to you people. If I want, I can write it as eloquently and well articulate as I want. But I didn't because I didn't want to. Do you have any problem with that? No one cares.



Oh, just shut it.

I note with awe that you deliberately avoid writing eloquent and articulate posts.

Does it hurt?

Why don't you start first writting it in Arabic script? I promise I will file a petition first if my darling snow queen writes Bangla in Arabic script. :tup:

You have fallen into error.

The motto is, "Do as I say, not do as I do."
 
That's a person belonged to a minority bro. One does not simply base stereotypes of a country based on minorities bro.

Again where's your picture? I really want to see you prince.

By the way, where are you from? As I recall some African country.

Why are you so butthurt about my post? It seems you are another wannabe-Middle Eastern.

He is probably Iranian
 
Jejune? Who? Me? Are you saying that to me? I must admit that I have serious ADHD and I can be extremely impulsive at times; never mind.

All the same, you are jus
t another example of a typical narcissistic Indian. There is no point in explaining anything to you people. If I want, I can write it as eloquently and well articulate as I want. But I didn't because I didn't want to. Do you have any problem with that? No one cares.



Oh, just shut it.
Did it create a an intense posterior oedema?

BTW a dose of Atomoxetine might benefit you a lot:enjoy:
 

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