Should Pakistan purchase the Venezuelan F16

[Dark Angel]

Well Chinese do have their own variant plane J11 , the Sukhois are used in China with Sukhoi designations , J11 is a completely Chinese 100% chinese engineering it might look like Sukhoi but it not Sukhoi its a bit better

what are u talking abt ...............


The basic variant of the J-11 is manufactured under license by the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC) using Russian-supplied kits, and is functionally identical to the Su-27SK variant. An "indigenized" multirole variant, the J-11B, is based on the J-11 airframe but fitted with a Chinese-built avionics and weapons suite.

The reason which lead to the sudden stop in the production line of the J-11 was the obsolete avionics and radar, which were structured for aerial missions. This was an issue in which the PLAAF evaluated after the first 100 J-11 were built, in that it lacked any true precision-strike capabilities, only being able to deliver unguided freefall bombs. With a contract of an initial 200 J-11 allowed to be produced in Shenyang under the Chinese-Russian contract made in the 90's, the PLAAF decided to modernize the J-11 with domestic radar, avionic suites, manufacture methods and material upgrades to extend the life of the aircraft in service.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

But lets get back to Venezuelan F16

If we get these

a) We could get them refurbushed under the Nato Ally Support
initiative from US , upgrade the 24 to C/D level, and get 8000
Hours flight guarentee from the upgrade.

b) Fit in the BVR , and upgrade the radar on the F16

c) New engines , and little bit of maintenence in Turkey etc


These planes are no good to Venezuella , they can't fly these planes
with no maintenence and support

We are both Nato Allies and as such we could use the planes and also US will get the planes back perfect solution ...

 

[ptldM3]

AZADPAKISTAN2009, if the Chinese want to export the J-11 they will have to pay Russia so they can produce MORE airframes, not doing so would be a blantent contract violation, double dipping, if you will. Moreove, the export of the J-11 would likely be a sticky situation, amagine if Egypt ordered the JF-17 than imagine Egypt broke the contract and used "their own avionics" than image if they continued to produce unathorized airframes under a different name, then image if they tryed to sell them.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

AZADPAKISTAN2009, if the Chinese want to export the J-11 they will have to pay Russia so they can produce MORE airframes, not doing so would be a blantent contract violation, double dipping, if you will. Moreove, the export of the J-11 would likely be a sticky situation, amagine if Egypt ordered the JF-17 than imagine Egypt broke the contract and used "their own avionics" than image if they continued to produce unathorized airframes under a different name, then image if they tryed to sell them.

Well that is something between you and china , if its un convinence , we will look at J10B in higher numbers since many of our collegues like the single engine approach ...

But that is 2015 we are far away , for now we just want to focus on single engines

May be things will change by 2015, and there will be more clearity

I know that at present we have J10B as option

Duel Engine planes are great but they do cost a bit more ...

So we are going to await and see how things play out but having
J11B would be a welcomed addition

For Pakistan's prespective , 2015 is far away , so we are trying to first develop our JF17 platform , and J10B , with F16C/D , after that we will look at J11B , fighters ...

J11B would be perfect to complete the airforce. Or we can get get in touch with French and negotiate something for Rapheals in French Airforce ....to replace the Mirage fighters we have

 

[ptldM3]

AZADPAKISTAN2009 it would probably make more sense to spend money upgrading JF-17's with French avionics than ordering old F-16, another possibility would be to order the Rafale in small numbers, if the French permit of course. Also when is Pakistan receiving the J-10?

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

AZADPAKISTAN2009 it would probably make more sense to spend money upgrading JF-17's with French avionics than ordering old F-16,another possibility would be to order the Rafale in small numbers, if the French permit. Also when is Pakistan receiving the J-10?

I would personally favour, russia to be involved if we do get J11B , it would be ideal case , but even if not , J11B is a unique fighter - but will see we do have other
options, our J10B are to arrive back home 2014/2015 on schedual but if China produces all parts locally it can sell , base on what the Chinese defence minister stated that he wants to expan the Chinese fighter sales figures

But we could also consider
a) Rapheals (Old Ally)
b) Euro Fighters (Available for cash)
c) F15S (Available for allies)
d) Gripen (Diplomatic ban)
e) J11 (Diplomatic confusion)
f) Hornets (Available)

So these are possibilities for '2015'

But we will see what happens once 2015 comes closer.

J10B, F16C/D, JF17 Thunder is a formidable force with BVR and with AWACs.

Perhaps AESA radar is the missing link in Pakistan Airforce , and may be enhancing the technology used in Pakisan Airfroce by 20-30% and more availability of advance simulators

 

[SU-33]

If Pakistan need, of couse can get J11B, beacuse J11B is 100% made by china. but I think Pakistan won't buy J11B, first, heavy fighter plane is too expensive(include buy and use), second, J11B and SU-30MKI were all developed from SU-27, they are similar in something.
I think now Pakistan need:
(1) increase quantity of F-16 new type
(2) produce JF17 as soon as possible , and improve JF17 in future. beacuse china reduce JF17's capability when design, the purpose:1. to reduce price ;2 Pakistan's ability cann't produce too advanced airplane at that time.
(3) buy som new device forexample AESA from europe or USA.(chinese AESA will first use for J14, so maybe won't export in short time
(4) buy J10B or JF20.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

If Pakistan need, of couse can get J11B, beacuse J11B is 100% made by china. but I think Pakistan won't buy J11B, first, heavy fighter plane is too expensive(include buy and use), second, J11B and SU-30MKI were all developed from SU-27, they are similar in something.
I think now Pakistan:
(1) increase quantity of F-16 new type
(2) produce JF17 as soon as possible , and improve JF17 in future. beacuse china reduce JF17's capability when design, the purpose:1. to reduce price ;2 Pakistan's ability cann't produce too advanced airplane at that time.
(3) buy som new device forexample AESA from europe or USA.
(4) buy J10B or JF20.

Well I think F16C/D is ok becasue we have the engineering platform to maintain the crafts , I mean just becasue we don't have to spend more to create and train engineers

I think most Pakistani people would agree that the J10B & JF17 is just great jewel in our Airforce

Like I said that the J11B is a (option) for a heavy , lead fighter with great payload I like J11B becasue it has Chinese upgrades !!! which makes it unique plane J11B would be fantastic option :: ::

The fact it has Chinese Avionics is the plus, I am personally fan of Chinese radars and avionics and weapon system , I predict that the Chinese systems will ADVACE 10x more vs other countries because of the Research focus
So I would put faith in Chinese systems

In next 5-7 years chinese avionics would become superior to most European countries

Our whole country is waiting for J10B with AESA radars to get inducted into Pakistan Airforce, I think if we get Chinese AESA radars in Airforce its better

JF17 , J10B -> AESA radars from China >Integrated with Chinese AWACs
F16 -> AESA radars from US or British companies>Integrated with SaabAwacs

J11B -> ?? Great option just need to iron out the technicality
I do feel that J11B is 100% new plane like every thing is new

But I agree if we can reach 100 F16 C/D
and complement that with J10B, JF17 thuders (Block 1, Block 2) it would be perfect

After that we can maintain a strategic fleet of 2-3 squadrons of Air Superiority type all air to air combat platform, that would be a missing link, untill 2018 at least - hopefully we can target Rapheal or Euro Fighters by 2018 by then our economic situation would be different

 

[MZUBAIR]

One of the major flaws in your theory is to believe the you will get all F16 from Venezuela right away, can send them to Turkey to upgrade them and have them operational soon. But Venezuela of course would sell them only, if they get an alternative and even then, they will come only in small batches. When they get the first 12 new fighters, they would give PAF the first 12 F16s, then PAF must send them to Turkey and so on. Bottom line is, that this deal would take quite some time till the fighters finally could be in operational service.
Besides that, even F16 B52 is inferior to nearly any MMRCA in the competition, so these upgraded won't make a difference to the MMRCA competition at all.
As several other members told you before, it's not as easy as you think and would be more useful to go on and get 4.5 gen fighters like J10B.

So far...MMRCA is not reality............
I have been hearing abt MMRCA since 2005, when there were only 3 contendors.........Mirage 2K5, Gripen and Mig29. Laterly IAF descided for 4.5 gene fighters......and new 6 contendors come out F-16, F-18, Euro, Rafale, JAS, Mig 35......
The decision was about to finalized in 2008, then 2009 and now its 2010.........and still I dont see any thing within next 3 years as 4 contendors faced problems in LAH.

I dont know y India has superiority complex as they are having only approx 250 AC (130 MKI, 50 Mirage, 70 Mig 29) from 4th and 4.5th, which are fit for war.
Whereas PAF have 50 F-16 (46 current + 4 in June), 180 Mirage and 20 JF-17.

So the power is almost same.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

If Gripens were not banned from being sold to Pakistan , we probbly would not have been wondering for 4.5 generation fighter

What we really need is a fighter that is pure Air - bird 'Air Superiority'

That can carry heavy Supply of Air-Air weaponry

French Rapheal could be good option for 2015, 2 squadrons and we outright replace the mirages with new squadrons

 

[zagahaga]

no till 2019 we only be ghetting single engine fighters ... after that azad pakistan we will see ok?

 

[Jigs]

Best option for Pakistan is cutting deals with China and Turkey. As Turkey becomes more and more self efficient and not held down by contracts on exports and tech transfers you can bet Pakistan will be interested in anything we produce. You already see this with the Milgem,T-129, and artillery projects we have. For things like fighter jets China is the best options since we most likely have contract restrictions with Lockheed Martin on F-16 and F-35 projects. China doesn't have this with their JF-17 projects and future 5th generation fighter aircraft.

 

[Dark Angel]

So far...MMRCA is not reality............
I have been hearing abt MMRCA since 2005, when there were only 3 contendors.........Mirage 2K5, Gripen and Mig29. Laterly IAF descided for 4.5 gene fighters......and new 6 contendors come out F-16, F-18, Euro, Rafale, JAS, Mig 35......
The decision was about to finalized in 2008, then 2009 and now its 2010.........and still I dont see any thing within next 3 years as 4 contendors faced problems in LAH.

I dont know y India has superiority complex as they are having only approx 250 AC (130 MKI, 50 Mirage, 70 Mig 29) from 4th and 4.5th, which are fit for war.
Whereas PAF have 50 F-16 (46 current + 4 in June), 180 Mirage and 20 JF-17.

So the power is almost same.

How very convinent for u to compare Mirage III with SU-30MKI,Mirage 2000 & mig-29..............Even our Bisons are far more capable than Mirage III as even they are BVR capable


So the power is not almost same.

 

[DaRk WaVe]

The F-16 is a solid platform which Pakistan has used for the last 30 years. F-16 can last for another 20 years in the Pakistan Air Force.

After F-16, we need to move to Chinese and Indigenous production.

Our Inventory by 2025:

300 - JF-17
150 - J-10
150 - J-11
110 - F-16

I am not saying that F-16s are 'bad', but we must not be going for F-16s & F-16s, enough with F-16s we need to move forward, our adversary Air Force is moving fast & we need a good determent for MKI ,coming MRCA, MiG-29 SMT, M2K-05 & FGFA
you me & every one here knows that we need the 'rejected MMRCA candidate' & more investment in 5th Gen, I don't know how you have included J-11s

 

[sancho]

I dont know y India has superiority complex as they are having only approx 250 AC (130 MKI, 50 Mirage, 70 Mig 29) from 4th and 4.5th, which are fit for war.
Whereas PAF have 50 F-16 (46 current + 4 in June), 180 Mirage and 20 JF-17.

So the power is almost same.

That's because you still think that Indias defense is focused on Pakistan, but it isn't! You see India as the main enemy of course, for India it is China and that's why MMRCA and higher capabilities are needed for them. Just as you pointed out, there is no need for IAF to focus on PAF, because they already have the upper hand, that's why upgrading Mig 29 and Mirage 2000 will be enough apart from further indaction of MKI, but the focus for MMRCAs will mainly at countering PLAAF.
Btw, you should compare BVR capable fighters and then you will understand how the power is balanced.