Should Pakistan convert Mi-17 to optional attack role?

[Philip the Arab]

Your ideas are fantastic mate, and thanks for thinking outside the box. And as @MastanKhan said, it is very hard to convince others about the viability of this. Due to new threats on the Western borders, the Pakistan attack helicopter fleet needs to increase. And this can be one of the solutions.

The only reason I would think that may prevent the Army from exploring such an option is probably something brewing in China regarding an attack Helicopter. Although Chinese attack helicopter was sent back after evaluation, I would not be surprised if the Chinese are in the process of doing major changes as per recommendations from the PA.

I think the Chinese attack helicopters are in different categories. Think of an upgraded Mi-17 as a multi-role helicopter that can be armed if need be and fulfill transport needs whereas the Z-10 has one role being attack. What are the threats on the Western border from Afghanistan? I wasn't aware of a threat that needed major firepower. The Mi-17 can probably fulfill the same role as the Z-19 in terms of recon and secondary attack-role with added protection to the Mi-17 to 12.7mm with composite rotor blades.

Have you considered that India will be making a good amount of LCH which the Super-17 is roughly comparable to.

Modular architechture allows unlimited system integration - Tactical transport - Offensive operations • Anti-armour • Rockets • Bombing - Commando type missions - Multiple aircraft missions with attack/combat helicopters - Currently the only tactical transport helicopter with a proven anti-armour capability - Full night vision operation

Also I found a upgrade for the Fennec that Paramount group that makes the helicopter much better armed.


Paramount Advanced Technologies (PAT) has fitted its FLASH (Flexible Light Armaments System for Helicopters) weapon and sensor kit onto an AS550 helicopter in order to demonstrate the system, and is also promoting its other aircraft upgrade options.

The AS550 demonstrator is fitted with a helmet-mounted display, electro-optical turret, mission display, GPS receiver, air data, attitude and heading reference system (ADAHRS), mission computer, computers and weapons, including 12.7 mm gun pods and 70 mm unguided rockets. Various armament options are available such as FN RMP gun pod; 12 tube rocket launchers; 20 mm cannon pods; FZ unguided rockets; 68 mm guided missiles and Mokopa and Ingwe anti-tank missiles.

FLASH provides a low cost and modular alternative to expensive attack helicopters and while designed for light utility helicopters, it can be fitted to other rotorcraft like the Mi-17 and fixed wing aircraft. Some of its key attributes are that it is ITAR-free, scalable and expandable.

 

[Zarvan]

This thread is exactly what the title is, should Pakistan convert their Mi-17 to optional attack role from the South African company Paramount Group? This upgrade will significantly increase anti-tank capabilities through the addition of 8 ZT3 Ingwes which has about 1000mm of penetration after ERA and would prove deadly to Indian tanks be it T-72, or T-90s, or Arjuns. 8 Mokopas which can also take on any Indian tank around. A 23mm gun pod can also be integrated onto the helicopter which makes it even deadlier than it already is. New composite rotor blades, as well as a new cockpit, sighting system, and helmet system would further modernize the system and really make it equivalent to the American OH-58 Kiowa in terms of the role it plays. This could complement the Fennec with a helicopter already in service with Pakistan.


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More info about Mi-17 upgrade here www.paramountgroup.co.za/media/1149/paramount-mi17-2015.pdf



Also, instead of Pakistan purchasing new Mi-35s from Russia, why don't they just buy other countries Mi-24s and get them again upgraded by a South African company? Again, new avionics, 20mm gun, Mokopa. This is arguably the best variant of the Mi-24 out there and puts this beast on a whole new level.

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More info here www.paramountgroup.com/media/1320/paramount-night-hawk.pdf

Newly introduced MI 17 Transport/Attack Version

Armed BlackHawk helicopter.

Future wars will need helicopter as shown in above pictures. Helicopters which can carry 12 to 14 troops along side the fire power which above helicopters have. These are future of helicopters.

@Tipu7

 

[Philip the Arab]

Newly introduced MI 17 Transport/Attack Version

Armed BlackHawk helicopter.

Future wars will need helicopter as shown in above pictures. Helicopters which can carry 12 to 14 troops along side the fire power which above helicopters have. These are future of helicopters.

@Tipu7

And wouldn't Pakistan benefit from converting their Mi-17?

Other helicopters in Pak inventory can be upgrade maybe. Fennec gets 4 Ingwe missiles and many other weapons.
https://www.defenceweb.co.za/aerosp...lights-flash-helicopter-weapons-kit-upgrades/

 

[MastanKhan]

And wouldn't Pakistan benefit from converting their Mi-17?

Other helicopters in Pak inventory can be upgrade maybe. Fennec gets 4 Ingwe missiles and many other weapons.
https://www.defenceweb.co.za/aerosp...lights-flash-helicopter-weapons-kit-upgrades/

Hi,

Any and every military helicopter should have the ability to strike---pure & simple---.

 

[iLION12345_1]

Why does India arm their helicopters then? Again, have you thought of on optional attack role, the helicopter could still perform transport duties and if needed switch over to an attacking role because who knows how many attack helis Pakistan will lose or need in a war with India.

Indian helicopter which is armed, care to explain why?


Also can't Pakistan convert foreign bought Mi-24s to Super Hind instead of buying new built from Russia?

Firstly, this is a good idea. It can be a force multiplier. But as many members have commented here. It’s really not needed. You asked why India does it. Mainly because their attack helicopter/gunship fleet is much smaller as compared to ours. Ours is huge by regional standards, and that’s because they were really needed in the past. Jets can’t do COIN very well can they. In the end it all comes down to need and want. Even at personal levels. It could be an issue of time, funds, personal preference since we’ve never used these and on and on. The military does know better what it needs to do, but maybe this is a viable option and should be looked into.
As for the question about the Hind, when that deal happened itself. It’s purpose was more strategical imo. It was to show improving ties and give a little hint to India. I don’t want to turn this thread into the same India Vs. Pakistan stuff. But that’s very easy to tell. (Also maybe new instead Of old and upgraded was a factor there).

Hi,

Thanks for starting an excellent thread---. The problem you are facing is that you are preaching to pakistanis who have a mentality of " father knows best "---.

So---it will be next to impossible to get thru---.

The reason pakistan is buying new is to start up a relationship with russia---but your idea is very good---.

Why not buy used and get them completely re-furbished---.

Your option for the MI17 is also excellent that needs some serious thought and consideration by the army---.

Military is first and foremost a fighting force---and parallel to fighting is transport element as well---.

I agree that one side of the Pakistani people is always the one which says “father knows best” but the other is the complete opposite and always thinks they know best. Sadly I’ve seen you drift to that opposite recently. No matter how many little mistakes the military and the generals make. They will know better than us as we sit on a forum online not having 40 years of military experience.

And wouldn't Pakistan benefit from converting their Mi-17?

Other helicopters in Pak inventory can be upgrade maybe. Fennec gets 4 Ingwe missiles and many other weapons.
https://www.defenceweb.co.za/aerosp...lights-flash-helicopter-weapons-kit-upgrades/

The Point of having many times is more important than the point of having the best. Our first priority is to replace the Old cobras before they become accident prone. That’s where our funds will go. The military has a certain numerical requirement. Yes upgrading Mi 17s to attack and giving better weapons to other helicopters makes them more powerful, but it doesn’t increase the number of Helis we have. Nor does it allow us to replace the old ones with new ones. An Mi17 with weapons is not as good a gunship as a Cobra. It’s all priorities. Maybe the military might even do this. But not before the actual requirements are met. That could be a factor in this.

 

[AMG_12]

I think we will have sufficient attack helicopter fleet in future .. Current 48 AH-1F will entirely be replaced

Future / Current attack helicopter platform
> 48 Ah-1F (current, will be replaced in future)
> 4 Mi-35 (current) and more 5 reportedly ordered , speculations are that order maybe increased to 20 total
> 30 T-129 Helicopters reportedly on order (Deliveries awaiting)
> 15 AH-1Z Viper (9 air frames are already built but currently sanctioned, Talks of their retreivel from US are underway)
> 10 Fennec (Light attack and scout helicopters are in service as well

AH-1 will not be entirely replaced. Ex-US can be salvaged to keep the ex-Jordanians running. We may see Cobras for another half a decade or more.

@Signalian

 

[iLION12345_1]

AH-1 will not be entirely replaced. Ex-US can be salvaged to keep the ex-Jordanians running. We may see Cobras for another half a decade or more.

There’s a couple of ways the military could go with that, it might be like they’ve done in the Air Force with the thunder replacing the F7s squadron by squadron starting from the old and going to the new. While the old are salvaged for what they can be and then scrapped.

Another option is the FC. I remember this was brought up once in a military circle that the Cobras that still have decent service time left might be given to the FC just like the Older tanks were given to them. And those guys certainly need it for that terrain.
I don’t think the Army will be losing anything in either of these options since the Helicopters stay in service regardless, besides, our orders are 50(ATAK and Hinds)+10(Fennecs)+15(Zulus, albeit they might not arrive). Which is more than the amount of Cobras we have. So win-win?

 

[AsifIjaz]

Not at this point in time. Wont make sense to convert anything less than atleast dozen or dozen and a half units.
Once we have the right nos with us and hopefully by then the economy would have improved too then why not. At this point in time only the absolute must projects are being pursued.

 

[MastanKhan]

I agree that one side of the Pakistani people is always the one which says “father knows best” but the other is the complete opposite and always thinks they know best. Sadly I’ve seen you drift to that opposite recently. No matter how many little mistakes the military and the generals make. They will know better than us as we sit on a forum online not having 40 years of military experience.

Hi,

I may get rude at time---but for your statement---why don't you get a rope and tie it around your neck---.

Speak for yourself just sitting on the forum---.

You are talking as if pakistani genrals are gods---. They are all fallible creatures---and you have no clue how some of them have fckd up pakistan after 9/11---because your statement tells me that---.

 

[Zhukov]

Isnt SuperHind program Cancelled?

 

[hasnainfirst]

This thread is exactly what the title is, should Pakistan convert their Mi-17 to optional attack role from the South African company Paramount Group? This upgrade will significantly increase anti-tank capabilities through the addition of 8 ZT3 Ingwes which has about 1000mm of penetration after ERA and would prove deadly to Indian tanks be it T-72, or T-90s, or Arjuns. 8 Mokopas which can also take on any Indian tank around. A 23mm gun pod can also be integrated onto the helicopter which makes it even deadlier than it already is. New composite rotor blades, as well as a new cockpit, sighting system, and helmet system would further modernize the system and really make it equivalent to the American OH-58 Kiowa in terms of the role it plays. This could complement the Fennec with a helicopter already in service with Pakistan.


View attachment 553607


View attachment 553608

View attachment 553609
More info about Mi-17 upgrade here www.paramountgroup.co.za/media/1149/paramount-mi17-2015.pdf



Also, instead of Pakistan purchasing new Mi-35s from Russia, why don't they just buy other countries Mi-24s and get them again upgraded by a South African company? Again, new avionics, 20mm gun, Mokopa. This is arguably the best variant of the Mi-24 out there and puts this beast on a whole new level.

View attachment 553610

View attachment 553612

More info here www.paramountgroup.com/media/1320/paramount-night-hawk.pdf

Won't it decrease the airlift capability ?

 

[Shabi1]

No! waste of resource allocation.

PA lift fleet is already stretched so don't think Mi-17s can be spared for conversions to attack role. PA already getting Mi-35Ms and several other attack helos.

For anti terror and recon role more armed drones should do the job more economically and efficiently.

 

[iLION12345_1]

Hi,

I may get rude at time---but for your statement---why don't you get a rope and tie it around your neck---.

Speak for yourself just sitting on the forum---.

You are talking as if pakistani genrals are gods---. They are all fallible creatures---and you have no clue how some of them have fckd up pakistan after 9/11---because your statement tells me that---.

And thus my point is proved. Thanks a lot sir.
A few points you might have missed in telling me to commit suicide;
I myself admitted they make mistakes.
I said “we” sit on a forum. Not you. That includes me.
Now If you’ve gotten over the fact that even with the mistakes made by our generals, as humans do, they’re still better leaders than any of us could ever be, I’ll move on. If not, why aren’t you the COAS considering you have godly capabilities in military leadership sir? Or will you just tell the enemy to tie a noose around their neck and we’ll win the war automatically.
Your reply just showed your credibility. And I’m not going to go around flaunting mine where I don’t need to. Good day.

 

[Sulman Badshah]

24 Zulus IA

as per DSCA and DOD .. Total 15 were approved and 11 got initially contracted to get manufactured

 

[Khafee]

as per DSCA and DOD .. Total 15 were approved and 11 got initially contracted to get manufactured

When the remaining 13 show up IA, is nacheez ko yaad rakhna