Shoud pakistan start j-2x programe low cost (5th generation) multirole aircraft to replace jf-17

[MastanKhan]

Dear MK, old man, how is it going?

A few months back we did talk about JF18, if you recall... my sense is you are going to see JF18/J31 in PAF colours and in sufficient numbers. 30/40 won't cut any mustard.

Let us call this one NGF for now.

Having said that, our little wonder bird, JF17, is long way from maturity or evolution. In this class we shall see this genesis to keep going / evolving / transmuting till 2050.

In my eyes JF17 is truly transormative element from which all else will spring. Chinese/Turkish or Martian route not withstanding.

How is car sales glut in the US?

Regards,

SPF

Hi,

Car sales has taken a steep dive---because a lots fo Latinos are uncertain of their future in the country---and southern california being majority Latino community---has taken the biggest hit.

My problem here is a lack of commitment to the J31---Paf needs to make a public commitment---so that of they change their minds---people can hold their feet to the fire---.

As for the JF17---Paf will rue the day when they decided to make it in this size rather than the original design some 25% larger---even though the JF17 BLK3 would be phenominal---the JF17 similar in size to the Japanese F2 would have been outrageous.

It took them too long to realize their error---they firmly believed in that low low flight format---smaller size---flying hugging the ground---disappearing in the clutter---and not knowing or believing what the Aesa radar was bringing to the table---.

That lack of foresight has hurt pakistan.

 

[araz]

Hi,

Car sales has taken a steep dive---because a lots fo Latinos are uncertain of their future in the country---and southern california being majority Latino community---has taken the biggest hit.

My problem here is a lack of commitment to the J31---Paf needs to make a public commitment---so that of they change their minds---people can hold their feet to the fire---.

As for the JF17---Paf will rue the day when they decided to make it in this size rather than the original design some 25% larger---even though the JF17 BLK3 would be phenominal---the JF17 similar in size to the Japanese F2 would have been outrageous.

It took them too long to realize their error---they firmly believed in that low low flight format---smaller size---flying hugging the ground---disappearing in the clutter---and not knowing or believing what the Aesa radar was bringing to the table---.

That lack of foresight has hurt pakistan.

I think PAF wants a commitment from PLAAF/ PLAAN to induct the J31 platform into service and then start putting money into it before they will do so. The problem with J31 is the slow pace of development due to lack of finances. The PAF got stung the last time the Chinese backed out of buying JFT after haing committed to buying 200 units. They want a solid commitment before they will commit. The development cost of J31 can escalate pretty quickly and cross the billipn dollar mark and PAF is being risk averse. However lets see hpw this game pans out.
Iam not sure where you are getting the 25%larger JFT story from. It does not make any sense to me as the planes are never made smaller to save costs. Ithink the JFT was designed to be exactly what it turned out to be. Where it has surprised everyone is with how everything has gelled into a platform which is exceeding expectations. It potentially still can have 10 hardpoints although with DERs that becomes a mute point and I think is small enough to be difficult to find.Its tange will be increased furtherwith CFTs and possibly a better engine
If we wanted something larger there was always J10 which we have known about at least since early 2000sso unless you cqn provide proof I think ot os one of your own ideas rather than anythong concrete.

 

[MastanKhan]

I think PAF wants a commitment from PLAAF/ PLAAN to induct the J31 platform into service and then start putting money into it before they will do so. The problem with J31 is the slow pace of development due to lack of finances. The PAF got stung the last time the Chinese backed out of buying JFT after haing committed to buying 200 units. They want a solid commitment before they will commit. The development cost of J31 can escalate pretty quickly and cross the billipn dollar mark and PAF is being risk averse. However lets see hpw this game pans out.
Iam not sure where you are getting the 25%larger JFT story from. It does not make any sense to me as the planes are never made smaller to save costs. Ithink the JFT was designed to be exactly what it turned out to be. Where it has surprised everyone is with how everything has gelled into a platform which is exceeding expectations. It potentially still can have 10 hardpoints although with DERs that becomes a mute point and I think is small enough to be difficult to find.Its tange will be increased furtherwith CFTs and possibly a better engine
If we wanted something larger there was always J10 which we have known about at least since early 2000sso unless you cqn provide proof I think ot os one of your own ideas rather than anythong concrete.

Hi,

See Araz---I have given the tactical reasoning for why the smaller design over the larger design---. If you did not understand that part---it is not my problem.

As for the chinese---they recognized the fact that in the changing scenario that they found themselves in---the medium weight class aircraft would be their minimum requirement---and with what they had on the platter---they did not want to indulge any further in the aircraft that they were not interested in.

As for the Paf---it did not understand the significance of the change by china---it was the egos of the Paf that they contd with the JF17---. Any saner individual or organization would have switched midstride---swallowed their pride and ego and gone with the J10.

There already was a prime example in the history---the Lavi---and a great egoistical nation Israel---but then the Yid swallowed its pride--dropped the Lavi program---and went with the F16---.

But the pakistani airforce generals were not in it for the defense of pakistan---they were in it for the money---. The JF 17 project is for their contd. jobs after retirement---and some people think it was all for the glory of the Flag.

 

[mrrehan]

Existing
View attachment 381980

J-18 would be nice
Twin Engine Thunder , throwing the idea out there

Same Thunder but modified to have 2 Engines

Just need minor revision on the lateral half of the Plane

The rest of the plane can remain as it , Avionics , Weapon's package etc

View attachment 382016

View the Top view , what I did was without changing too much of the plane , I just reused the rear space which presently fits 1 Engine , to place 2 Engines side by side. Same scale 2 engines in given space at rear , and you can see techncially you can position 2 Engines side by side at back

May be the airintake would need to be widen to accomodate more flow of oxygen/air into engines

Certainly the core body can be modified to house 2 Engines with some minor revision of structural design of core body

Well, Two engines need fule of two engine. Wings need to be more stronger and bigger to house bigger internal tanks as well more weapon stations. Then computing for flyby wire (if exist) will be altogather new.

Think about your car a bit widen but having two engines[emoji5]

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

1- That is certainly what point I was trying to share that the Widening of Thunder would happen to accomodate second engine

2- The pilot area would expand almost double in width

3- With wider central column we might be able to fit bigger internal fuel tanks to supply fuel to second engine


Now the point raised about the wings

I think Japan have a copy of F16 , with bigger wings and slightly scaled up plane
so I was also thinking the wings may increse by small margin but first prototyes would still be able to go up in air with existing wings

 

[araz]

Hi,

See Araz---I have given the tactical reasoning for why the smaller design over the larger design---. If you did not understand that part---it is not my problem.

As for the chinese---they recognized the fact that in the changing scenario that they found themselves in---the medium weight class aircraft would be their minimum requirement---and with what they had on the platter---they did not want to indulge any further in the aircraft that they were not interested in.

As for the Paf---it did not understand the significance of the change by china---it was the egos of the Paf that they contd with the JF17---. Any saner individual or organization would have switched midstride---swallowed their pride and ego and gone with the J10.

There already was a prime example in the history---the Lavi---and a great egoistical nation Israel---but then the Yid swallowed its pride--dropped the Lavi program---and went with the F16---.

But the pakistani airforce generals were not in it for the defense of pakistan---they were in it for the money---. The JF 17 project is for their contd. jobs after retirement---and some people think it was all for the glory of the Flag.

MK
As to the first para it is now established that there was never a plan to have a bigger JFT.
As to the second paragraph the point to note is that the Chinese reneged on their word to buy 200 units for the JFT. I dont deny that it may not have been the plane that they wanted.
As to the JFTvs J10 let us agree to disagree and move on.
Regards.
A

 

[MastanKhan]

MK
As to the first para it is now established that there was never a plan to have a bigger JFT.
As to the second paragraph the point to note is that the Chinese reneged on their word to buy 200 units for the JFT. I dont deny that it may not have been the plane that they wanted.
As to the JFTvs J10 let us agree to disagree and move on.
Regards.
A

Hi,

I did not ask for your comments in the first place---. You can have your say and move on.

 

[malikahmed91279]

We can cooperate with TAI or Saab for our j-2x program, TAI can provide parts and design for NG stealth fighter

Saab Next generation fighter concept

 

[Ultima Thule]

View attachment 383629 We can cooperate with TAI or Saab for our j-2x program, TAI can provide parts and design for NG stealth fighter

Saab Next generation fighter concept

I like the idea from @AZADPAKISTAN2009 that our Next generation Stealth fighter will based on JF-17, its take less time and lot easier to build rather than we build from scratch

 

[malikahmed91279]

I like the idea from @AZADPAKISTAN2009 that our Next generation Stealth fighter will based on JF-17, its take less time and lot easier to build rather than we build from scratch

You are right, it's easier to built a twin engine aircraft, but it could be MMRCA, not to replace (low cost jf-17) we can use two ow power engine (60-65kN) and easily maintain, cost around 40-45 million dollar per unit, but we are talking about a low cost single engine 5th generation aircraft, who have to replace single engine jf-17

 

[Pak.one]

No pak economy is not getting better its getting worst I was watching a progam on dunya news the anchor and analyst Rauf klasra said how everything is running through loans..airport roads buildings are mortgaged to get loans from IMF...so pls cut your defence budget further India is not your enemy ....


Pakistan economy is a serious concern to pay loans you are taking more loans ...cpec will increase the debt further ...Decrease your nuclear missile numbers and reduce defence budget..

Hahahahahaha .... Good joke india is not our enemy and rauf klasra leave this man paid foreigner countries to de moralise Pakistanis

 

[araz]

Hi,

I did not ask for your comments in the first place---. You can have your say and move on.

The forum and any posts that you make are there for others to venture opinions on. The reason I asked those questions is because your posts seemed to assume your opinions as facts from verifiable sources. I have no problem with you venturing an opinion but when your posts have an air of authority as if backed by solid facts then I will ask as is my right. You have asked everyone to comment by virtue of posting a comment on an open forum. I have now had my say and moved on!!
A

 

[banvanaxl]

I don't usually reply to posts like this but I felt compelled. Maybe if this is repeated enough times it will become common knowledge. I apologize in advance. I probably will get out of line. Nothing personal intended.


Not really. Producing a new aircraft doesn't improve your aviation sector on its own. Producing aircraft that 1)satisfy a need of a customer 2)willing to pay the price, 3)in large numbers 4)consistently for many years, improves aviation sector. Also, involving private sector. Doing JF-17 Lego won't, sorry.


Absolutely not. If we utilize your lego Jf-17 approach what we'll have is an aircraft which will be much heavier. The wing area will be much less than what is needed. It will actually take off in a longer distance (I assume this is what you mean when you say "greater capability to lift off"). Its payload will actually go down not up. That second engine probably added 1500 kg of weight. Sadly, thrust alone doesn't increase payload. You get diminishing returns if you just increase thrust.

I guarantee your aircraft will have a lower T/W than the JF-17.


Sure.


Okay? How is that a gain when you have the turning performance of a rock? And you can only fly 200 km tops?


And have you thought about whether the PAF (or anyone else) wants the next generation of JF-17? From what I know PAF wants to focus on the JF-17 and go to next gen.

Also 15%? I wonder where you got that number from.

MAYBE if you would have been talking about replacing a big RD93 with two smaller engines I would've thought about a JF-17 iteration. But cramming two engines together is much harder than copy pasting it in a 2D picture.


No. It is actually very quantifiable. It isn't priceless. It is actually part of the development cost that you just talked about. Furthermore, because it is a finite cost, you can do a cost benefit analysis to see whether it is worth it (hint: it's not)



I think you have mistaken the word modular to mean LEGO.

Do you know what an aircraft with two RD-33s, and a twin-tail is called?

It's called a MiG-29

I would suggest you look at the MiG-29 and think long and hard about why the designers of JF-17 don't make a MiG-29 out of it. Is it a step forward? sideways? or backwards?

And then ask yourself if PAC wanted to produce the MiG-29 couldn't they? Why don't they? Does PAF want it?
Yes they could. They don't want to. PAF doesn't want it. Also the international market doesn't want it. That spot is filled by the MiG-29.

Then, ask yourself whether taking a SMALL JF-17 and sticking two engines in it (God knows how) is better or not (in ANY way), than having a properly designed MEDIUM weight fighter like the MiG-29 (assuming that, that is what PAF wants).

I'll try my hand at analogies. You're trying to put a horse's heart in a human. Aircraft are usually designed around the engine (or engine class) and you will go too off optimum if you do something crazy like stick 2 RD-93s together.

I cannot stress enough how unreasonable this idea is from an aircraft design perspective. Please ask questions if you don't understand anything I've tried to explain.

Try skimming through some of the classical preliminary aircraft design books such as:
https://books.google.com/books/about/Aircraft_design.html?id=Q9QeAQAAIAAJ
https://books.google.com/books/about/Airplane_Design.html?id=usXVaf8Qu0cC
https://books.google.com/books/about/Aircraft_Performance_Design.html?id=Ck9l1DGj5-4C

to get a "feel" for how aircraft are designed and built.

A refreshingly knowledgeable analogy. Respect.

Somebody give this man a positive rating already.

 

[Ajit6333]

Hahahahahaha .... Good joke india is not our enemy and rauf klasra leave this man paid foreigner countries to de moralise Pakistanis

Rauf klasra is a paid man by whom ...are you serious he has always said things which are good for pakistan
....anyways lets discuss the topic there is no thing such as low cost stealth fighter jet...pakistan low defence budget cannot afford fgfa topic ends

Economy is not a concern. Our 2016 economic growth was 4.7% and 2017 it is projected to grow at 5.2%. PAF shall get money for new fighter once JF-17 project has fully evolved most likely in 2018.

https://www.adb.org/countries/pakistan/economy

Your economy is at its worst...dont waste money on fgfa you cannot compete with India anymore you should keep min detterence which i think u already hv

Pakistani tv / movies are banned in India.. where and why were you watching Pakistani talk shows?



Have you considered the profit, which PAF will make selling JF-17?



J10 was developed after JF-17 and so is J31.
To any open minded, its quite obvious that J-10 and J-31 have borrowed technologies from JF-17 or perhaps you would like to point out something which is not visible on surface!

1st answer I watch in youtube -dunya news
Profit from selling jf17 -pehle bech to lo bhai its profit cant say but its inexpensive
J10 J31 technology borrowed from jf17 thats insane...j31 is a fgfa how on earth its not even close to jf17 you should not write things from open mind it should be based on reliable source

 

[Pak.one]

Rauf klasra is a paid man by whom ...are you serious he has always said things which are good for pakistan
....anyways lets discuss the topic there is no thing such as low cost stealth fighter jet...pakistan low defence budget cannot afford fgfa topic ends


Your economy is at its worst...dont waste money on fgfa you cannot compete with India anymore you should keep min detterence which i think u already hv


1st answer I watch in youtube -dunya news
Profit from selling jf17 -pehle bech to lo bhai its profit cant say but its inexpensive
J10 J31 technology borrowed from jf17 thats insane...j31 is a fgfa how on earth its not even close to jf17 you should not write things from open mind it should be based on reliable source

Thanks for your free advice.Pakistan never take dictation on its defence,we will continue efforts to make our defence stronger what ever you talk, we don't care and 5th gen fighter we will induct before you mind it