Shame on Iran

[fd24]

The Iranian state bears full responsibility for this - and the Iranian people should feel ashamed that one of their own, has to be arrested, tried and convicted because of his FAITH in God -- this is entirely sad and shameful

You have a tendancy of generalizing about Iran Saudi Pakistan. In fact you generalize about most nations. Do you believe thats a fair way to judge a complete nation? This generalisation i believe is wrong. Have a think of what for example the USA is made up of. To generalize about this nation by you would be fair?

 

[lem34]

SO basically he's making a stand against the government's policies and receiving attention from around the world to focus in on the Regime?

excellant point that needs repeating

 

[fd24]

i apologize to the iranian brothers and those who got hurt by the topics headings and contents and i will like to inform you that muse is an i mposter using pakistani flag as a cover and nither is he a muslim i can prove it

Unfortunate that you have said big words and made suggestions about a person then not back it up? Are you simply hot air? I think either an apology is due or tell us and educate us??

 

[Meengla]

So let me see if I understand the argument -- because top clerics control who can run, Iran's government is not representative? Is that a fair and accurate if economical representation of your argument?

Yes, that's right. Iranian representative govt. is at the whims of the top level clerics. And they repress Iranians too in various social freedoms.

You seem to have black and white mind. You think because the current govt. in Iran is representative (to a 100% level) then all actions of this govt. translate into the mindset of tens of Iranians. And then you 'shame' 'Iran' based on that.

 

[lem34]

Aryan Super K -- there you have it - how can we solve our problems when we are not allowed to?

Hussein says this is against islam -- wait a minute, if La Iqra Fid Deen is true then the state has nothing to say with regard to Mr. Naderkhani's confession

See, the real problem is the willingness to strike fear in people - the willingness to fill the halls of heaven with those unwilling to go voluntarily - to force people on pain of death

Listen muse I agree with you on what you say. I dont have a problem with that. I dont believe that if you lock someone up from dawn to dusk then he has fasted. However whilst we are sorting out our issues we do not need people with ulterior motives putting their oar in. Islam and the east did not interfere in the western reformation. We need our own space and time to carry our people all together to enter a better pakistan or east

 

[fd24]

100% not pakistani.and the post which he posted check all of them its either resonating division in pakistan according to sects and religion he constantly posts articles with twisted headings against other muslim countries and specially against arabs and now when iran is trying to come closer he targeting iran through his posts he is anti pakistan

As i thought and predicted. Hot air. Well done Khanz4996. Well done in giving us proof of no value.

 

[muse]

You have a tendancy of generalizing about Iran Saudi Pakistan. In fact you generalize about most nations. Do you believe thats a fair way to judge a complete nation? This generalisation i believe is wrong. Have a think of what for example the USA is made up of. To generalize about this nation by you would be fair?

Listen, we have shortform - and this is legitimate - Why? US government policies are a reflection of the will of the people - the American people through their representatives take responsibility - Iran has a representative government and the judiciary acts in the name of the people, as does the state - therefore to say that Iranians bear responsibility for this is entirely legitimate.

But look, not just this issue but any issue that has to do with Muslim majority countries elicits a series of denials - WHY? When wrong doings is pointed out to Indians, especially when the wrong doing has anything to do with Hindu religion or ideology and then there are Israeli, the same reaction

What explains this proclivity to ball up in denial when it comes to the use of religious propositions to hold people in terror? Aryan and SuperK say that we know we have problems but we then resort to excuses when they seek refuge in blaming the West -- blame who you like, in the end, the problem is still ours, all of us, are in this together

So what gives, what about our values is such that we cannot face reality that in our existence, propositions of a religious nature cannot be discussed with the criteria of good bad, and right and wrong?

 

[Meengla]

Listen muse I agree with you on what you say. I dont have a problem with that. I dont believe that if you lock someone up from dawn to dusk then he has fasted. However whilst we are sorting out our issues we do not need people with ulterior motives putting their oar in. Islam and the east did not interfere in the western reformation. We need our own space and time to carry our people all together to enter a better pakistan or east

Spot on.
There is major revaluation in Islamic thought process needed. Pakistan too has issues. The most shameful and the most glaring are the murders of Taseer and Shabaz Bhatti over the Blasphemy Law. For them the blame can be placed fully on the backward mindset. No blaming foreigners for that. Heck, even some Forum members here justified the Taseer murder.
But the reforms have to come from within. They need to come fast. I wish they do.

 

[muse]

Yes, that's right. Iranian representative govt. is at the whims of the top level clerics. And they repress Iranians too in various social freedoms.

You seem to have black and white mind. You think because the current govt. in Iran is representative (to a 100% level) then all actions of this govt. translate into the mindset of tens of Iranians. And then you 'shame' 'Iran' based on that.

See in all elections there is a culling process, but everybody who wants to can or does run - politics is a reality, some people are more "likeable" by friends and friends of friends -- so your objection or argument does not have merit.

I don't think you have a problem with what I have suggested is shortform, you simply have a problem with the idea that yet another idol turns out to have clay feet.

 

[muse]

Listen muse I agree with you on what you say. I dont have a problem with that. I dont believe that if you lock someone up from dawn to dusk then he has fasted. However whilst we are sorting out our issues we do not need people with ulterior motives putting their oar in. Islam and the east did not interfere in the western reformation. We need our own space and time to carry our people all together to enter a better pakistan or east

refer to the "Change in Arabia thread" - we have had plenty of time - but there is another reason we seem to have such difficulty in solving our problems

That difficulty is that we refuse to look at things critically - that is to say we refuse to look at things through right and wrong and good and bad -- if would, we would be on our way towards solving our problems --- notice our problems begin and end with a particular understanding of religiosity

 

[Meengla]

you simply have a problem with the idea that yet another idol turns out to have clay feet[/B].

Firstly, you flat out deny the veto power the Iranian cleric hold over the elections process. Then you discount the repression the Iranians themselves are under. Then come up with these baseless allegations that I have an 'idol' in all this.
Just like I know that the American invasion of Iraq was not supported by milliions of Americans and so I don't 'shame' America for that I am not going to 'shame' Iran for this.

 

[lem34]

Listen, we have shortform - and this is legitimate - Why? US government policies are a reflection of the will of the people - t

QUOTE]

Codswallop as a think tank you accept this democracy. this democracy we around the world see is just an opiate of the masses but then thats a discussion for another day another thread

 

[muse]

I am not going to 'shame' Iran for this.

OK - The issue is that an Iranian man, one MR. Naderkhani has been prosecuted for apostasy and his life is in danger - that's the issue, not what you will or will not go with.

 

[lem34]

But look, not just this issue but any issue that has to do with Muslim majority countries elicits a series of denials - WHY? When wrong doings is pointed out to Indians, especially when the wrong doing has anything to do with Hindu religion or ideology and then there are Israeli, the same reaction

What explains this proclivity to ball up in denial when it comes to the use of religious propositions to hold people in terror? Aryan and SuperK say that we know we have problems but we then resort to excuses when they seek refuge in blaming the West -- blame who you like, in the end, the problem is still ours, all of us, are in this together

So what gives, what about our values is such that we cannot face reality that in our existence, propositions of a religious nature cannot be discussed with the criteria of good bad, and right and wrong?

I just dont accept what your saying here. We dont blame the west for our issues. We say we have problems. We say we will sort them out. We dont need west to lecture to us about our shortcomings they have their own. You know the kettle calling the pot black? Live in glass houses dont throw stones at others. But you seem to revel in this? Why? Its right that you point these evil situations, its right that you expose them but hey do it critically not with western eyes

 

[muse]

its right that you expose them but hey do it critically not with western eyes

Poor khan has to resort to takfiri techniques and now you suggest that conscience is a Western reserve -- Remember Mr. Naderkhani??? Is not what you are doing the same as what the Iranian court did to Mr. Naderkhani? in both cases, if the respondent does not "submit"he is the "other" -- and you say we can solve our problems? How?