Serving Brigadier arrested for suspected links with Hizbut Tahrir

[S.M.R]

84 300D.

Actually i will confess, I was hardly old enough to drive when it was brand spanking new. It belonged to a relative. I inherited it from him.


i do remember you telling me about your 280SE

Well we have merc owners here

I love to get one but u know its easy to buy an elephant than feeding.

 

[iPhone]

He is brig of 'Pakistan' Army not any 'Islamic' Army, as abou bhai said, pakistan first, he is supposed to serve the only nation whose he's a brig.

Well formation of own military using the manpower / resources of PA will be a 'highly exagerated' view as HuT is not reported be militant organisation. Its still allowed to work in UK, keep that in mind.

Well, of course I'm not saying he was setting aside PA's resources and manpower for his HUT views. I'm just making an observation on his idea. And just saying that imagine what an idea like that could make a man at his position do. Where there's an idea there can be a will also.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Of course, action against such individuals is indeed good effort and good job making it public, too. Set the example for others with such or worse beliefs.

But i do think therr is something back there that needs to be addresed. I could be wrong on this as I'm not too familiar wih pak armys training methods. But of what ive seen in documentaries and read here and there, it seems Pak army puts too much Islamic influence on their cadets/recruits/trainees during their training. Probably so much that it wouldn't be a surprise they start to see themselves as soldiers of Islam. Hence, more prone to being influenced by ideas of one ummah.

well you have to keep in mind 2 things:


a.) Pakistan Armed forces is a reflection and product of the society it is in....unlike past where you had fairly westernized cadets who were sons of land-owners and well-off -- it is now an institution that represents the middle class of society (a good thing I think) --- and people from all over Pakistan (also good).

i hate to generalize, people of ALL classes (but most especially middle) tend to be more observant of the religion (a good thing). Doesnt mean that it compromises on their ability to fight and kill the enemy and eliminate threats (as per orders) during war --which is the most important thing.


b.) Pakistan's raison d'etre is a homeland for Muslims of the sub-continent. Of course you have some people who say ''Army used to be more secular'' -- to some extent yes I do agree with that notion. However there are no religious obligations -- you can pray if you want. You can be clean-shaven or have a mustache or a beard (I personally am against a soldier having a beard but thats just me). You can wear religion on your sleeves or be subtle about it as long as you report to duties and observe them stringently and keep your focus.

Pakistan Army is a purely voluntary force, mind you.

it really goes down to what you define as ''Islamic influence'' i would say..


In Islam in its purest form, there is ''one Ummah''.....but at the same time, Pakistan is a sovereign nation. We have adhered to the principle of one ummah without sacrificing our nationhood. We have dispatched troops to friendly countries to train them and/or conduct joint exercises and drills with them. We have sent pilots to Muslim countries as ''courtesy'' and ''solidarity'' (e.g. 67 and 73 wars). There are Muslim countries which came to our aid --especially at a time when those whom we MOST relied on turned their backs on us during times of need.

so i think it is possible to merge the interest in promoting ''Islamic solidarity'' (which goes hand in hand with ''one Ummah'') while keeping Pakistan's territorial/sovereign interests at heart as well.


it's a defence force....as long as the enemy does not (and can not) breach our territory and pose existential threat to Pakistan --- we have out-smarted them and are MORE SUCCESFUL at the job. And as Pakistanis --we would hope to help other friendly brotherly countries if and when they ask for the help.


i hope that helped somewhat.

 

[S.M.R]

Well, of course I'm not saying he was setting aside PA's resources and manpower for his HUT views. I'm just making an observation on his idea. And just saying that imagine what an idea like that could make a man at his position do. Where there's an idea there can be a will also.

The simple answer to that imagination would be 'Nothing'. Any of his position or even above would try to do any such attempt, will be detained in the same manner for conviction. At least this is very clear from this particular case.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Well we have merc owners here

I love to get one but u know its easy to buy an elephant than feeding.

luckily mine's an older diesel....gets good fuel economy

on a cold day however, not the most environmentally friendly

 

[MastanKhan]

84 300D.

Actually i will confess, I was hardly old enough to drive when it was brand spanking new. It belonged to a relative. I inherited it from him.


i do remember you telling me about your 280SE

Hi,

Actually---I did own a 1968 mercedes 280 se at one time. Fun car to drive.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Hi,

Actually---I did own a 1968 mercedes 280 se at one time. Fun car to drive.

Hi,

got pictures of it?

Beautiful machine. An ideal weekend cruiser.

 

[indushek]

The army thrives on the affection of the people. The politicians are usually there to order us to a slaughter and then blame the whole episode on us as well, case in point: 71 and 99. In this situation, we are bound to stay quite in respect to our oath. In this situation, it is the support of the people that keeps our morale high, that's why it's important in conventional warfare.
In LIC, the respect of the people is even more important, otherwise they will shelter and support that other belligerent(BLA or Taliban in our case) which makes our job difficult if not impossible.



No, the second bold text is a consequence of grievances resulting from the lack of trust in the military.



Well, to a junior officer or a jawan, his superior officer is like God's gift to him. In the junior's eyes, his senior is all-knowing and will never lead him wrong. It is this trust which enables Jawans to run into the line of fire at the hint of their commander without the fear of death or injury. This trust is sacred and the constant finger pointing at the army is shaking that trust, which results in problems like that of the Brigadier in question, they look elsewhere for a substitute to their senior commanders in whose abilities and beliefs they can repose their trust.

Very good explanation there, can't say i will not agree.

The second answer is also agreeable to a certain extent, however the question remains about the excesses no doubt. However if we are to not consider the past then may be it is answered keeping in mind that none of them are happening now or will happen again.

The third one i should say is alarming, i mean if the shaken trust sends them to the Tahrir type organizations (which some say is better because it doesn't work on overthrowing the current regime but aims for changing it and doesn't advise violence) what about others who find the 'trust' in more radical groups??

All said and done sir u haven't answered my third question properly, it was the PA which cultivated these ties with LET's and Jaish etc etc (please don't go by nomenclature, i know that u know what i am talking about) and other radicals for strategic depth. Now if these people who are involved at operational level with these groups are being picked up for their relations which inturn was because of state policy (i know the present trend has changed) isn't it that the top level cadre is trying to save its own skin by making them scapegoats? Its just like in an organization where the top management always get hikes even in a year when the profits aren't that high and layoffs and pink slips are flying around!!!

 

[RescueRanger]

These are the newsletters spammed to the officers within PA by Hizb...

 

[S.M.R]

Lol, could not further read after "that it was PA's responsibility to come forward and save "muslims" from Americans". What rubbish. PA is supposed to save 'Pakistan' and every Pakistan be it Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Christian and whatever.

 

[T-Faz]

I could not read at all, I used to get a Zero in Urdu so the reason is clear.

Someone please list the main points for peoples like moi.

 

[All-Green]

sovereignty belongs to Allah
ALLAH gave us a system agreed??
the ultimate purpose of Prophet "islamic state"

so today u put that system aside and make laws from ur mind this is democracy!!
as most of it is against islamic sharia
i mean the french parliment majority votes out face covering~!!
our rulers take interest based loan our banks work on that haram thing!!
wat do u call this wen Allah said "no man or woman has right to give hukam wen Allah has given 1"..i can give many evidnc
does ur democratic ruler thinks about haram halal,gunah sawab b4 amending laws ?
wen Allah has given us economic system,social system , foreign policy y u put it aside and use ur brain which is bound to error!!??

The problem is that contrary to what you perceive, things are not as straightforward and simple as that.

Allah has given us a brain to use and going back in time, many Caliphs were more competent due to this quality. How can you potentially argue that we not use our brains?
Now i know you will argue that this is not what you mean but why do we think that no one can make intelligent decisions today as opposed to mortals like us who were caliphs in the past and made their own decisions within limits defined by Islam.

If you think that everything is defined and SOPs are given to us directly from Allah in each matter then you are wrong.
What has been defined by Allah for the Muslims is in the Quran and explained in Hadith as well.
However primarily what we have in way of divine guidance is basic principles and boundaries which we have been asked to respect and not cross.
Somethings are very specifically dealt with in detail but overall we have boundaries which have been defined as a limit which should not be exceeded.
Within these boundaries the rulers really had a choice to make their decisions and introduce laws....within these boundaries we do enjoy free will.
Over extending this argument that only Allah is sovereign in order to counter democracy is a bit flawed in my opinion.
If we say that in every matter we have no say then that actually renders any decision making impossible and legislation will be considered a sin...but it is indeed not possible to run any form of government if this happens.

Allah is the creator and sovereign but within our domain he has given us will to choose, without this will the purpose of our creation is actually negated.
Clearly we have been told what is wrong and what is right but essentially we were created to make our own choices and bear the consequences in this world and the hereafter.

What i say is that as long as we do not cross the limits defined by Allah in Quran, our constitution and form of government cannot be called against Islam.

Our core issue is corruption and injustice, if you think that we need a different system than current one then it is your valuable opinion.
To say that democracy is not working because it is against Islam is not an accurate diagnosis of the problem, what good has the so called Islamic reign done in recent past to Muslim countries?
Is the problem so superficial that announcing caliphate and Shariah will solve all issues at hand or is it deeper than that?
I think the issues in our society merit a study and change, however our state is not unislamic by virtue of system (since no legislation can be against directive of Quran) but by virtue of implementation.
How do you guarantee that this shall miraculously be remedied just because Mr. XYZ guarantees us more Islam?
The problem is lack of implementation of laws which has been aggravated by rampant corruption.

Please bear in mind that even some of the past caliphs had been terrible and even in the golden era of Islam there were instances of grave injustices which caused many fitnas, civil wars and suffering.
The treatment of non Arabs caused bloody wars between Arabs, Persians and Berbers on many occasions and it was not a Yahoodi sazish but the fact that as Islam grew across continents the need to give space to different castes and creeds became more critical.
The political requirements were of paramount importance and if a ruler was politically ignorant...the result was disastrous.
On the other hand many Caliphs were great leaders and ensured prosperity of their people.

Even in the current system, we can achieve betterment if people rise up to the challenge.
We can rally in support of Mumtaz Qadri but why we do not rally against a corrupt president?
Is it the extent of our Islam and particularly the Islamic forces which always support Taliban etc. but lack the same fervor in sacrificing themselves for removing a corrupt president?
It means that most of these Islamic forces are compromised!
So tomorrow if they rally around a new Caliphate system and install Fazl Ur Rehman as the Caliph...what then?
It could be a sad fact that even in a more Islamic system we may see a corrupt person coming to power via some scheme...then what?

Once we know that our constitution guarantees that legislation cannot be against directive of Quran...why do we not challenge a dodgy legislation in the courts and set a precedent of accountability?
Why not sacrifice our time, energy and even lives here?

At the end of the day i am not opposed to changes and do agree that things have to change, but calling it a caliphate and having the same problems without hope of resolution is not a change in true sense.
We are not willing to spend energy in rectifying the flaws of our society which have manifested in shape of current antics of governments, what is the guarantee that after 20 years from Caliphate we shall not have similar decline as we saw after creation of Pakistan?

No offense to you is intended but i see same problems whatever the system is, since the problem is lack of implementation of system.
If the Mullah brigade and Islamic parties are closely inspected...i expect them to hijack a more Islamic system (if envisioned) and give us the same performance or even worse.

The rulers indeed are not thinking about Haram or Halal but if we get a Gen Zia like character...will it change anything?

The nation has to hold its rulers accountable and show resentment towards the corrupt faces in order to change the culture.

 

[iPhone]

The distribution of these newsletters to officers and jawans within PA is also an inside work. This is and an outright call for mutiny. A very, very grave situation. Arresting these individuals won't be enough. They are taking actual facts and twisting them to suit their agenda. They are using OBL raid and American aid etc to incite the readers.

Time is now for Pakistan to become totally sovereign and independent. So these scumbags have nothing on Pakistan. You cant keep eyes on every officer and every jawans 24/7 and then who will be watching the watchers? You fix this problem by going for the root cause, get your sovereignty back other wise youll be watching a whole lot of people and all over the country.

 

[muse]

To begin with, the Pakistan army could have and should have, been up front with the Pakistani nation - but the judgement of the army is that the Mullah is stronger than the army, is more persuasive than the army ---- and so the army will lose unless it can come up with the kind of gumption the Syrians have, at least thus far - but it is ironic isn't it that the Pakistan army spent so much time and money and laid such emphasis on it's uniquely "Muslim" identity, only to now either submit or face the consequences --- Even this effort seems "motivated" given the criticism of the Americans at the arrests of their agents, after all, we all know, that it's the Jamaatis who have opened the doors for "others"

 

[Jango]

this is a total false thing, i have a friend whose father is a Maj Gen in GHQ, and according to my friend , this brigadier thing is total bull, he was arrested but not for links with hizbu tehrir, he was simply a bit supportive of the taliban and that was all. He spoke a bit in support of the taliban but had no contacts with anyone.