Selex ES radar & other technology on JF-17?

[Bilal Khan 777]

Now you say it's an opinion blog. You are just telling your opinion. But look back at your words, is it look like you are telling your opinion? It's more like you are telling something as a matter of fact, and which is clearly not a fact.

I suggest you to apologize to us all like a grow up man.

It is an opinion blog, for analysts. You need to learn basic etiquette before you come back posting anything. Rather, things that come to your little head, you can keep to yourself.

I will never say China can make everything on its own. It certainly is not true. But to claim that Chinese military aircraft have to have some structural parts made in Europe is a blatant lie. Everybody here knows that China do not have the means to access Western military technology or products let alone to have some parts of any fighter made in Europe thanks to the arms embargo.

Then why are you lying?

I am not lying, you need to check your facts before you call names to any analysts here. China has access to many european manufacturers for critical aerospace parts. The ban is specific to MTCR and missile technologies.
However, in your patriotism you are unable to have a civil discussion.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

I believe the 'integrated EW suite' is essentially RWR, MAWS and ECM. Finmeccanica offers solutions in each of those areas, so they can offer an integrated EW kit alongside the AESA radar. The main issue would be an external EW jamming pod, Finmeccanica doesn't offer one, but I'm not sure if that is dependent on the radar. But if PAF pays up, Finmeccanica can get a working solution going in short order, they already have mastery of the fundamental technology necessary to make it happen. Alternatively, the PAF could source a solution from Airbus Defence and Space or Indra (which was already contracted to equip the Block-II with ECM).

This is the real caveat here. Selex sell point for AESA is integrated EW like EFT and Grippen. The same cannot be exported. Any developments in triple digit NRE for new platform, which will make Chinese options real attractive.

Since certain people exploit the privilege of membership, i request the admins to close this thread. This started as the most professional technology discussion, and come to certain individuals gasping for air. Thank you.

 

[araz]

I will never say China can make everything on its own. It certainly is not true. But to claim that Chinese military aircraft have to have some structural parts made in Europe is a blatant lie. Everybody here knows that China do not have the means to access Western military technology or products let alone to have some parts of any fighter made in Europe thanks to the arms embargo.

Then why are you lying?

If you know something come out with it. If someone else says something on an open source forum that you dont agree with counter it. with civilized arguments. I am glad to see that the MOds are now observing the fora more vigilantly and any furhter insults will be dealt with harshly but justly.
A

I don't know who I am working for anymore. US origin is your speculation. However, the end user is Pakistan, and the decisions of such licenses are based on country of end use.

For your information, there are many fighter programs in Chengdu where critical parts are still made elsewhere.



This is an opinion blog. Who is pretending? You think I just make up all this information? Growing up would be a good next step for you.

You don't need to use caps lock to get my attention. I don't call anyone a liar, this is an opinion blog. If you don't like my opinion, or it offends your sensibilities that somehow China does everyone on its own in every program, then all power be with you son.

I know all of this is a shock to some of you here, but these are industry realities. This is how the world turns.

In response to your not knowing who you are working for any more the only thing I can gleam is certainly not for China!! People still do not know what problems there are with manufacturing and more importantly cutting specialized steel. However, it does bring to the fore the idea that China's other projects like j20 will also be "hampered by the same restraints". With the western and US imposed Embargoes and a certain jealousy at the Chinese progress how does China organize these. I understand the sensitivity of the matter and how answers may not be so palatable to most members so anyone who does not like the answers either respond with facts and Civilly. Any uncivility will not only get you a negative rating but a boot out of the thread or possibly the forum. As always reveal only that which you are comfortable with.
As to the avionics suite with Selex, one of the problems of sourcing from EU is access of other parties to the source of your materials which might make the project a security risk. The other problem is one of price. An AESA with the whole electronic suite may indeed make the price of the project double per plane and that may not be possible for PAF. So inspite of whatever we want, it may be that PAF will go in stages and acquire the technology as it becomes available to the chinese. I am sure Chinese acquisition circles would be activelty engaged in acquiring technologies to induct in their next generation platforms.
A

This is the real caveat here. Selex sell point for AESA is integrated EW like EFT and Grippen. The same cannot be exported. Any developments in triple digit NRE for new platform, which will make Chinese options real attractive.

Since certain people exploit the privilege of membership, i request the admins to close this thread. This started as the most professional technology discussion, and come to certain individuals gasping for air. Thank you.

I have requestes a clear out and it will be done inshaaAllah. The thread is an important source of knowledge so i disagree that it should be closed. You will find things happenning soon.
Regards
A

 

[HRK]

Araz, JF17 structural parts(specially load bearing members and main beams inside the wings) are made of a special lightweight alloy steel.

If I am not mistaken under work share agreement .... wing of JF-17 are manufactured in Pakistan ... which mean if what are you saying is true then we are using some of specialized western manufactured items in fuselage as well

This steel is neither forged in China, not are they able to machine it in 3 or 5 axis machines. Most of these parts are outsources to specialised subcontractors in Europe, that make similar parts for the big fighter aircraft manufacturers.

& if I read the highlighted sentence keeping the already available information in public domain in mind can make a guess about the country of origin ... is it 'I' ... if I am not mistaken ....

 

[Quwa]

This is the real caveat here. Selex sell point for AESA is integrated EW like EFT and Grippen. The same cannot be exported. Any developments in triple digit NRE for new platform, which will make Chinese options real attractive.

Since certain people exploit the privilege of membership, i request the admins to close this thread. This started as the most professional technology discussion, and come to certain individuals gasping for air. Thank you.

Finmeccanica's EW suite (i.e. RWR, MAWS, ECM) are as exportable as its radar technology, so the subsystems can be paired together for use on the JF-17. The real caveat is whether these subsystems are going to be up-to-par with the PAF's requirements. So while the radar might be great, the RWR might not be special enough to justify the added cost over an alternative, like the Indra ALR-400.

 

[asia2000]

@ Chinese Members, if you guys can't have a civilized discussion then don't come to insults, especially when it relates to members who are far more informed then you.

If you don't like anything said, counter it with arguments / facts / proofs, no insults. Next time i will sent you guys packing if anyone insulted a member without provocation.

I am wondering where he is getting such information, if he is not working for one of those subcontractors. Supplying critical components to China is certainly a violation of the arm embargo imposed since 1989. If supplying structural parts for JF17 is fine, as the end user is PAF. How about J10 and J20? Why would US/EU allow western companies to export structural parts for J10 and J20?

They need to buy more IL76 aircraft, so the product rate at PAC will become higher

He implied that PAC cannot make JF17 frame and has to depend on military transport aircraft to lift the fuselage from CAC. Can someone has visited PAC to confirm? The picture from quwa website clearly showing several fuselages being manufactured at PAC:

http://quwa.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/PAC-Kamra-01.png

 

[syed_yusuf]

the mid and read fuselage is made in china and airlifted to PAC, rest of the structure and other things are manufactured and mated in PAC

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

I am wondering where he is getting such information, if he is not working for one of those subcontractors. Supplying critical components to China is certainly a violation of the arm embargo imposed since 1989. If supplying structural parts for JF17 is fine, as the end user is PAF. How about J10 and J20? Why would US/EU allow western companies to export structural parts for J10 and J20?



He implied that PAC cannot make JF17 frame and has to depend on military transport aircraft to lift the fuselage from CAC. Can someone has visited PAC to confirm? The picture from quwa website clearly showing several fuselages being manufactured at PAC:

http://quwa.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/PAC-Kamra-01.png

Very observant of your sir!

the mid and read fuselage is made in china and airlifted to PAC, rest of the structure and other things are manufactured and mated in PAC

Have you seen the manufacturing taking place? Is PAC cutting metal? Do you call kit assembly manufacturing? If so, then pakistan manufactures submarines, ships, fighters, and Tanks.

 

[MastanKhan]

I am wondering where he is getting such information, if he is not working for one of those subcontractors. Supplying critical components to China is certainly a violation of the arm embargo imposed since 1989. If supplying structural parts for JF17 is fine, as the end user is PAF. How about J10 and J20? Why would US/EU allow western companies to export structural parts for J10 and J20?

Hi,

Thanks for posting---thaty is what I was going to write----what about the J31---J20---J10---J11's---J16's--J15's etc etc etc---.

What about their frames---who does those?

so the question comes back, will there be a Selex AESA on JF17? I predict that it will not be, since Selex will not be able to give an integrated EW suite that goes hand in hand with AESA. It is likely that the final JF17 AESA will be of Chinese origin, but inspired from North American designs.

However, block three will likely feature other western equipment, such as:

Ejection Seat
RWR
MAWS
IRST
Wide Area Display
HUD
HMD

More information will come out this year as these programs proceed.

Hi,

That is a very realistic picture---. At the end of the day---china would be fighting to provide the required electronic suite for the aircraft for paf.

I very much doubt that the chinese would let go just like that---.

Now as for the structural issue---you have thrown in a big monkey wrench in the system----which brings out the question---what about the other J series aircraft----10---11--15--16--20--31.

So---is the frame of the JF 17 more advanced that these other J series aircraft---?

 

[Syed Hussain]

Hi,

Thanks for asking----. A new problem has arisen over the horizon--and that would be critical in all the key decisions being made in the future---.

The recent leak of news a couple od days ago a=regarding the British and the americans spying on israeli drones and F16----thru data link

Dale Brown---in one of his works of fiction---some 18 years ago I believe---wrote about a super computer in an awacs type of aircraft that could decode an incoming enemy BVR missile and make it go astray during its flight---means within seconds the supercomputer was able to break into the datalink guided missile-----or if it was a regualr missiles with with radar lock information provided from the radar---I don't remember what type.

But the thing is----what was imagined---has become a reality now.

If you get the idea from someone---plz give some credit.

More than sometimes it has happened, you tend to "speak my mind"

 

[Quwa]

Not new news, but in October 2015 Selex said it was interested in giving the JF-17 Block-III a next-generation cockpit. Pretty good sign that they're keeping an eye on the Block-III.

Selex advances M-345 cockpit development

Selex believes that other potential applications for the advanced cockpit design could include South Korea’s future TTX trainer programme, and an upgrade of Pakistan’s Chendgu/Pakistan Aeronautical Complex JF-17 fighter, which could be implemented from nation’s third production batch.

@Horus @Tank131 @Bratva @HRK @Zarvan

 

[Hamza913]

All included what kind of per unit price are we looking at, since JF-17 is after all a "cost effective" solution which never was meant to "beat" the Gripen-NG in terms of cutting edge technology. I do like the idea as it makes good sense, however costing is a prime consideration here.

@Quwa

Block 1/2 can be our cost effective models, but block 3/4 can be our more potent fighters. That seems to be the current strategy in my opinion.

 

[aliaselin]

I am wondering where he is getting such information, if he is not working for one of those subcontractors. Supplying critical components to China is certainly a violation of the arm embargo imposed since 1989. If supplying structural parts for JF17 is fine, as the end user is PAF. How about J10 and J20? Why would US/EU allow western companies to export structural parts for J10 and J20?



He implied that PAC cannot make JF17 frame and has to depend on military transport aircraft to lift the fuselage from CAC. Can someone has visited PAC to confirm? The picture from quwa website clearly showing several fuselages being manufactured at PAC:

http://quwa.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/PAC-Kamra-01.png

Why not let them high by themselves? What you have done is useless to a man who make up to be a religious leader.

 

[Quwa]

Turns out that Leonardo (aka Finmeccanica aka Selex ES) isn't the only EW/ECM maker in Italy ... there's also Elettronica, which has provided solutions for the Typhoon, Tornado, and M2K-5.

http://www.elettronica-elt-roma.com/index.php/en/avionic-eng

http://www.elettronica-elt-roma.com/index.php/en/integrated-systems-eng

 

[[--Leo--]]

pakistan should make their own air borne radar even if its 2nd class AESA i don't care just make it