Secularism in the context of Pakistan

[BATMAN]

@FaujHistorian What Pakistan is facing is Indian cold start with support of Zardar and his corrupt secularists clan.
Islam is not a new thing, it existed with all since centuries, so stop selling it with new definition.
Islam talks about rights of every one but it also do not allow secular / evil worshipers to step on your right.
All i can tell you, Islamic values are being practiced in all modern states, minus and God almighty.

 

[Frogman]

Not that i'm very practicing Muslim, but Islam is demonized by the secularist extremists.

The demonization which befalls Islamists in the west is mirrored by the demonization of secularism in nations where political Islam has a foothold. This is mostly born out of misunderstanding in both cases. There are no secular extremists.

You can't sell terrorists or extremists as Islamist, they are declared most un-Islamic in the Quran it-self.

I'm sorry but you can. Militant Islamists use the Quran and other holy texts to justify their actions. Whether they misinterpret the text or not isn't relevant as it is Islam which motivates them (even if it is a distorted version of it).

There are three types of Islamists:

• Militant Islamists: Those who believe the majority of Muslim society is no longer on the straight and narrow path (Takfir). They also believe in a Caliphate. They use violence.
• Takfir and Hijra: Those who believe the majority of Muslim society is Kafir and so seclude themselves from society to live a 'pure' life. They rarely use violence against others.
• 'Normal' Islamists: Those who believe that Muslim society has become sick due to secularism. Will use any process to gain power/pragmatic. Non-violent yet do not condemn it.

All of these believe that Islam should guide social and political as well as personal life, however, they differ on the way it should be achieved. BTW you can't preach secularism.

 

[FaujHistorian]

dude, you should know that the manual you are bashing here was used to drive a car ''The Islamic Caliphate'' in a manner better than ever is possible with the new manual, refer to the rule of Hazrzt Omar RA, he had one of history's largest empires and managed it with such efficency that is not possible even now, (you are free to disagree and give me other examples), even the West bears testimony to this fact, why should we give up what is ours and has been and will be successful just to try a new thing that is proven to be a screw up....

Who would you capture first.

China Afghanistan Iran or INdia?


Please do not bring old stuff without proper context.

Thank you.

@FaujHistorian What Pakistan is facing is Indian cold start with support of Zardar and his corrupt secularists clan.
Islam is not a new thing, it existed with all since centuries, so stop selling it with new definition.
Islam talks about rights of every one but it also do not allow secular / evil worshipers to step on your right.
All i can tell you, Islamic values are being practiced in all modern states, minus and God almighty.

Modern Europe is follwoing Greek and Roman values of citizenship + rule of law (from English philosphers) + constitutional monarchy.


None of the so called Khalifash were constitutional monarchs

They all ruled by decree or shall we say Royal decree

There was no written constitution and legal system in modern terms.

If chopping hands and stoning is something you want to push here
'
Then you will be pushing barbarity and not constitutionalism.


So I ask you again

Bring in specific constitutional clauses from Khalifa Rashideen and and contrast them with specific clause in the Western constitution.

Please.







Please discuss what you understand about Secularism in the context of Pakistan.

Please DO NOT keep on bringing Islamic history here.

Open a new thread if you want to discuss Islamism

Thank you

 

[Khan_patriot]

Who would you capture first.

China Afghanistan Iran or INdia?


Please do not bring old stuff without proper context.

Thank you.

My example was completely in context as we were discussing matter of best governance, I gave you the best example that is not just thought of as such by me but by the world, even the seculars, if you have a better example give me one, I am open to be corrected, As for the question of whom I would attack, I would attack neither, but if I have to attack someone it would be the Taliban who are more of a threat than any foreign agressor.....

 

[Kaniska]

You can't speak secular in India!.... i have met thousands of Indians never met a secular one.

Unfortunately...that is what was dumped on us by our forefathers....No choice now....

 

[BATMAN]

Secularism
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/atheism/types/secularism.shtml
Secularists oppose religion

 

[Frogman]

Secularism
Secularists oppose religion

Read and comprehend:

"Secularists oppose religion or the religious being afforded privileges"

"They believe that the reduced numbers attending church show that people have chosen to give up faith. They say this underlines the unfairness of giving any special privileges or rights to faiths."-This is in the context of the UK. The Church of England still has bishops in the House of Lords.

"Secularists are not against the right of individuals to have a religious faith. What they oppose is special treatment for religious beliefs and organisations."

 

[A.Rafay]

go try in india.

Theres no harm in trying, is there? No.

We don't have secularism but we don't have Sharia either!

We are kind of in the middle confused people, cant really decide what we want.

One side you have religious extremists other side you have liberals wanting secularism and also those people who are undecided.

We are divided.

You live in West secularism and oppose it when it comes to Pakistan. Double standards?

If you are not living in Pakistan then why bother to put your shit in our matters?

Let Pakistanis who live in Pakistan decide for themselves.

 

[qamar1990]

Theres no harm in trying, is there? No.

We don't have secularism but we don't have Sharia either!

We are kind of in the middle confused people, cant really decide what we want.

One side you have religious extremists other side you have liberals wanting secularism and also those people who are undecided.

We are divided.

You live in West secularism and oppose it when it comes to Pakistan. Double standards?

If you are not living in Pakistan then why bother to put your shit in our matters?

Let Pakistanis who live in Pakistan decide for themselves.

well pakistanis have rejected secularism over and over so why do you people try shove it down their throats? im a pakistani and have every right to discuss issues in pakistan, if your pakis losers in pakistan don't like our thoughts then return our dollars. thats double standards now, our dollars are ok but not our thoughts lol.
you don't need to be secular to provide freedoms to your citizens. secularists are known butchers through out history can pakistan afford a secularist? i see so many secularists already saying on this forum that they would kill the islamists and mullahs, not all mullahs and islamists are terrorists.

 

[FaujHistorian]

well pakistanis have rejected secularism over and over so why do you people try shove it down their throats? im a pakistani and have every right to discuss issues in pakistan, if your pakis losers in pakistan don't like our thoughts then return our dollars. thats double standards now, our dollars are ok but not our thoughts lol.
you don't need to be secular to provide freedoms to your citizens. secularists are known butchers through out history can pakistan afford a secularist? i see so many secularists already saying on this forum that they would kill the islamists and mullahs, not all mullahs and islamists are terrorists.

Please do not spread ignorance and fascistic propaganda.

Thank you.


p.s. I thought you didn't like the thread and disappeared. What's going on. Not enough sleep?

 

[hussain0216]

When we see what the liberal/secularists have done in Egypt or Bangladesh to muslims it should be an eye opener that they will be a risk to all conservative muslims in the muslim world and should not be allowed to flourish

Pakistani's have never voted for overtly religious parties, part of the reason is that religious discourse is so much part of our daily lives and politics

However we are a overtly conservative nation

In theory secularism may mean seperation of faith and state and giving no special priviledges to one religious group but in practice and reality it is used as a force to oppress muslims, stop muslims from practicing even basics like prayer, wearing hijab or having a beard


The reality is our people are NOT secular, Pakistani's WANT Islam to have a special place with special priviledges afforded to it and muslims they also will react and react badly if secular liberals types start screwing around with the status of islam in our country and push for laws that Pakistani people dont agree with



If you are secular and liberal in Pakistan you are a minority, so trying to force or demand secularism for Pakistan is like demaning sharia for the UK


Secularism may have a acceptable definition but in REALITY it will be used to openly allow haram things in our society, to oppress muslims and eventually lead to attaempts at supressing muslim belief and practice like they did in Tunisia or Algeria or Turkey before the AKP

 

[M. Sarmad]

Like typical mardood Mullah mawdoodi who claims to be schlar and still pushes his dastardly tribal Islamist agenda against Jinnah
Like Ayatullah Khabeesi who claims to be rooh of Allah and yet kills and maims via his proxy terrorists.
Like Saudi Mullahs who support Qaida and Tali-barbarians.
Hope you see enough examples here
Hope you can now differentiate between an ordinary Muslim and an Islamist.
Thank you

You are Abusing the people who are highly respected by their followers ... The message you are trying to convey may be right , but the "typical style" that you follow is definitely wrong ... And also from this post (and from all other posts by you on similar topics) , One can see that your problem is with Deoband / Wahabi and Shia only .. You never criticize the "Halwa loving" pseudo-Islamist Barelvi creed , the one that you most probably follow yourself !! Not fair bro ..

We should try secularism, dump this rotten constitution of Pakistan which is based on inequality and injustice

With the exception of words that you used , I totally agree with the point you have made here

The reality is our people are NOT secular, Pakistani's WANT Islam to have a special place with special priviledges afforded to it and muslims

How can you say that on behalf of All Pakistanis ?
Never in our history has any Islamist govt . been elected by the people

well pakistanis have rejected secularism over and over

can you please elaborate ?

 

[M. Sarmad]

However we are a overtly conservative nation

Dont blindly follow the "Pak Studies" we are taught in our schools ..

They dont tell us that the Religious Conservatives were strongly opposed to the idea of creation of Pakistan ..

If Jinnah desired a "Islamic Constitution" , then why was a "Hindu" (Jogendra Nath Mandal) nominated as provisional president of the Pakistan Constituent Assembly to preside over its first session on Aug. 11 ??

Jogendra Nath Mandal is not mentioned even once .. He was one of the central and leading Founding Fathers of modern state of Pakistan, and legislator serving as country's first minister of law and labor, and also was second minister of commonwealth and Kashmir affairs


Only after the demise of Muhammad Ali Jinnah , Liaquat Ali Khan adopted conservative philosophy, principles, ideas, and traditions , and he did so to gain political support as there was no one(including himself) who could effectively replace Jinnah , as the leader of Pakistan

Jinnah had said : “You are free, you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any place of worship in this state of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed — that has nothing to do with the business of the state.”

Unfortunately Liaquat Ali was successful in authoring the Objectives Resolution and getting it passed from the state parliament, roughly declaring Islam as state religion .. The oppurtunists had their oppurtunity and they utilized it to their benefits ..



The People of Pakistan rejected this "Islamization" by electing "secular socialists" against the conservatives in 1954 elections in East Pakistan .. The united front secured 223 seats in the 309 -member assembly (with Awami League winning 143 seats)..
The West Pakistan provincial elections were described as "a farce, a mockery and a fraud upon the electorate" by electoral reform commission in 1956.

In 1956 , the conservatives gave the country her first constitution , The "Objectives Resolution" of Liaquat Ali Khan was included as the "preamble" and the country was named as "Islamic Republic of Pakistan" , (ofcourse without considering the will of the majority of people)

Earlier In 1951 Maj. Gen. Akbar Khan, the chief of general staff of the Pakistani army , along with some civilians including leading Pakistani poet Faiz Ahmed Faiz, who was notably active in left-wing politics and sympathetic to the Communist Party of Pakistan and Sajjad Zaheer ,had tried to overthrow the conservative govt. of Liquat Ali Khan .. But was unsuccessful ..


General Ayub Khan imposed the first Martial Law in country in 1958 . He omitted the word "Islamic" from the official name of state ; amid protests, Ayub Khan re added that word later as he seeked support of conservatives for his election as President of the state ..

When the martial law was finally lifted and the country had her first general elections in 1970 , The conservative parties produced a performed poor electoral performance . Only Pakistan Muslim League (PML) led by Nurul Amin had gained considerable votes from all over the country; the JeI faced with an embarrassing election result winning only 4 out of the 300 seats.


So the religious conservatives had never been popular among general public (neither in east Pakistan , nor in the west).. The leftist ideas dominated PPP gained much support from the public and won overwhelming majority in west Pakistan in 1970 general elections ... ZA Bhutto tried to make the Islamists happy by adding a few so called "Islamic Provisions" in the constitution of the country (His worst political mistake)..

A few years later Martial law was imposed by Gen. Zia ul Haq which marked the beginning of the era of "unlimited sufferings" of the Pakistani nation .. To this day we are paying the price of Zia`s Islamist policies ..

The "Islamisation" of Pakistan has always been a "political tool" of the illegitimate and power hungry leaders .. The so called "Islamic provisions" in our constitution practically provide a shelter to terrorism and Islamic extremism .. untill &unless we seperate religion from state business , there is no hope of any peace or progress in the country ....




Pakistan was the first country in the world to add the Adjective "Islamic" to its republican status in 1956 .. Though the constitution itself remained largely secular untill 1973 , when Islam was declared to be the state religion ..

This was the first "step" in the "wrong direction" .. Initially the "name" of Islam was added to state by conservatives like Liquat Ali with a hope of strengthening their personal rules . It was a good political move as the conservatives had a "agenda" now and they tried to exploit the newly born nation of Pakistan by mixing the concept of
"a country for better socio-economic chances for muslims of Indian sub-continent"
with a totally different concept of
"a country for propagation and protection of islamic religion" .....

Islam and "a democratic republic" are in fact contradicting philosophies and can not co-exist ... Over the course of time , "Islamic" part gained strength and "Republic" grew weaker and weaker.... And the result is in front of us now , The Islamists may not win seats in elections , but they are very influential and no "govt." can afford to make them angry ..


Have you ever wondered that when India made a Nuclear Bomb , No one called it a "Hindu Bomb" but when Pakistan did the same , it was labelled as "Islamic Bomb" ...
We were not the first one to have nukes in the world but the whole world saw our nukes as a "threat" .. That is what happens when you have "State Religions" in 21st century !!




Article 227(1) of our constitution states : All existing laws shall be brought in conformity with the Injunctions of Islam as laid down in the Holy Quran and Sunnah, in this Part referred to as the Injunctions of Islam, and no law shall be enacted which is repugnant to such Injunctions.

The Taliban claim that govt. has failed to implement the constitution properly and their fight is for the implementation of constitution



The Article 20 (b) states : Every religious denomination and every sect thereof shall have the right to establish, maintain and manage its religious institutions

The Article 22 (3) a : no religious community or denomination shall be prevented from providing religious instruction for pupils of that community or denomination in any educational institution maintained wholly by that community or denomination;

With all this in our constitution , we can not stop our Madrassahs from spreading sectarianism and producing terrorists

 

[FaujHistorian]

You are Abusing the people who are highly respected by their followers ... ?

Hitler too was highely respected, and so was Abu Jahil,

That doesn't mean they should be treated with kid gloves.

In fact the reason these Hitler Mullahs are "highly respected" because noboy points to their heinous crimes against humanity. Nobody dares to point to their ugly barbaric faces.

Many disagree with them but still want to treat them as pagan idols.

Makkans too were angry that their gods were being disrespected by the upstart social revolutionaries.

It is time to wake up and call a Mullah a mardood if he acts like one and do $hit stuff like them.

I hope you understand.

 

[FaujHistorian]

......
In theory secularism may mean seperation of faith and state and giving no special priviledges to one religious group but in practice and reality it is used as a force to oppress muslims, stop muslims from practicing even basics like prayer, wearing hijab or having a beard

This is what Islamists do.,

They lie through their teeth, their beards and their false hijabs.

you my dear are doing what Abu Jahil did to scare the $hit out of Makkan Kuffars.

That the new humanists the followers of Muhammad will come and destroy your life.

This in turn allowed Kuffar to beat the cr@p out Muslims whenever they got a hold of one.

Had they allowed Mohammad to preach tolerance, love and honesty, Makkahs would have largely kept their faith and become much better citizens. But no. They had to be TTP and as a result got wiped out.

The same hateful $hit is being peddled even now.

Millions of you Islamists live in the secular West. No one tries to shave your beard or take away your hijab.

Now if someone wants to go ape Ninja turtle in Paris, and the parisians say show your face at least,

or they say do not wear religious symbols in schools, but itis OK to wear hijmab in streets, just do not fork our schools

you all come here and throw cr@p in Pakistan in the name Islam.

What's wrong with you all.


What's is forking wrong that you want to burn down Pakistan because some ninja turtle was asked to show her face.

Is that how you operate.

is that how you destroy and suicide bomb the whole forking countries.

Pathetic and so shameful

utterly shameful.