Second nuclear submarine headed for year-end launch

[Archie]

Arihant class is an interim solution to our sea based deterrent just as K-15. I am quite certain that after the first 3/4 boats, IN will be looking for a bigger SSBN with 10-12 silos for bigger missiles (3500 - 5000 km). Arihant class can then easily be converted to SSGN's (possibly nirbhay or brahmos-2's). Moreover, considering the Arihant's launch in 2009 and possible commissioning in 2012, If "Arindham" is launched this year, it should be commissioned by 2015 as the second boat should face fewer issues and have a quicker deployment due to lessons learnt from the first boat.

Arihant class is not a stop gap solution , you dont spend 6 Billion USD on 4 stop gap subs
Infact Arihant class will be the sole SSBN subs in Indian Navy till yr 2035 Atleast ,
Thats coz Ship Building Center Vizag has orders extending to yr 2028 with Production of 4 SSBN and 4 SSN , and there could also be Delays
Thats the reason why the design was modified and the Last 2 Subs will be 30% Larger and carry 50% more nukes than first 2 Subs

Also Indian Government Does not begin the Design of a replacement platform , immediately after the induction of last of the previous platform , becoz they are not as far sighted
Hence they will not order the Next SSBN in yr 2020 like they should , infact they will order the replacement ships when Arihant class has completed 15 yrs in service , ie by yr 2028 , Hence it is likely that INS Arihant would be 25 yrs old by the time The replacement SSBN enters service
Hence there would be no time to modify the Arihant into SSGN

 

[Martian2]

That's a long way to go and even if the launch of SSBNs is an important step for the deterrence against China, the prime focus now must be to improve the range of our sublaunched ballistic missiles!

Arihant will not deter China. See section on "Operational Capability" below.

INS Arihant SSBN - Indian Defense Projects Sentinel

"Harbor and Sea Trials

During harbor trials the submarine will be operated using external steam and power, instead of the steam and power generated using the onboard nuclear PWR. The crew will perform trim dives by pumping water in and out of its ballast tanks.

Following successful completion of harbor trials, the submarine's nuclear reactor will be made critical for sea trials and the submarine sailing under its own power. The initial focus will be on surface sailing and maneuvering at progressively increased speeds. Shallow dives will follow with diving depth being progressively increased.

The submarine will return to harbor following each dive to enable inspection of its hull.

The reactor will be powered up to its full 83 MWe capacity in phases and the submarine will be tested to its maximum depth.

Weapon trials will start on completion of the sea trials.
...
Based on Russian Charlie II subs

India is reported to have acquired design of the Charlie II class nuclear submarines from Russia and the ATV was based on those designs. Along the way, in January 1988, India leased a Charlie class nuclear powered submarines from Russia to help the Navy familiarize itself with operating a nuclear submarine. The leased submarine was christened Chakra in the Indian Navy which operated it for three years. After the term of the lease ran out, the sub was returned to Russia.

The Arihant is 112m long as compared to 103m Charlie class subs, probably because of a section was added in the middle to accommodate its four missile tubes.

Its 10m beam is the same size as a Charlie class sub.

Like the Charlie II subs, Arihant has a single nuclear power plant which gives it a rather limited underwater speed of 24 kts. Not enough to chase warships or get away from them when it is detected.

During the launch of INS Arihant on Sunday, July 26, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh did not mince words while acknowledging Russia's role in the fruition of the challenging project.

"I would also like to express our appreciation to our Russian friends for their consistent and invaluable cooperation, which symbolizes the close strategic partnership that we enjoy with Russia," he said.
...
Analysis
...
It is likely India has sourced components like propellers and shafts from Russia for the boat to minimize risks.
...
Operational Capability

The Sagarika's limited range of 700km makes it inadequate even as a deterrent against Pakistan, let alone China.

There have been misleading press reports that as a vital component of the India's credible minimum deterrent strategy, Arihant is designed to lurk in littoral waters of Pakistan and China to fire its very limited range nuclear missiles in case India comes under a nuclear attack. Nothing could be further from the truth.

It will be years, more likely decades, before the Navy acquires the confidence to send an Arihant class nuclear submarine close to the Chinese or even Pakistani mainland. At the very least the sub would need to repeatedly demonstrate its ability to operate under the sea for months without returning to base.

Arihant's limited underwater speed of 24 kts makes it incapable of running away from modern warships once detected. Nuclear subs tend to be noisy when operating at max speeds, Arihant will in all probability be very noisy.

As soon as the submarine is deployed on patrol its movement will be tracked by the Americans and possibly by the Chinese.

There isn't a boomer armed with nuclear missiles in the open oceans that isn't being tracked by America. Russian boomers that threaten America are essentially those that are lurking under the ice in the Arctic circle or in Russian coastal waters.

China has operated nuclear submarines for over 25 years now, but none of their submarines have ventured too far away from the Chinese mainland. Their subs are, however, equipped with missiles that can be launched at the US mainland from within Chinese waters.

The acknowledged range of the Sagarika missile, 700 km, is likely its range with a 500 kg warhead. With a lighter nuclear warhead it could conceivably go as far as 1500 km. Deployed in Indian territorial waters the Arihant can threaten Pakistan but not China.

Hopefully, DRDO will be ready with the Agni IIISL within a year or two which will give Indian Strategic Command the option to launch counter value nuclear strikes on mainland China from within Indian waters.

It could well be another 5 years before that capability is reached.

It could probably be a decade before an Arihant nuclear submarine leaves the Indian ocean.

It is likely that followup nuclear subs will accommodate more sections to carry at least 12 launch tubes instead of the four that the sub currently carries. They will need more powerful nuclear power plants to propel their greater weight and achieve speeds in excess of 30 kts

The ATV project appears to be well conceived and carefully calibrated. It has a good chance of succeeding despite past delays. Indian nuclear and missile technology is well developed and reasonably advanced, though DRDO's past record has not always been stellar."

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"Invaluable [Russian] cooperation"

INS Arihant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"In his address to the crowd, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh billed the submarine as an outcome of a public-private partnership. He also thanked Russia in his address stating "I would also like to express our appreciation to our Russian friends for their consistent and invaluable cooperation, which symbolizes the close strategic partnership that we enjoy with Russia".[15]"

http://zeenews.**********/news/nation/n-submarine-arihant-to-start-sea-trials-soon_745060.html

"INS Arihant was formally launched in July 2009 and it would be the first in the series of three nuclear-powered submarines that the country is building with assistance from Russia."

 

[Rang De]

^Load of BS there.

1)Nuclear reactor went critical a year ago.Link

So its already sailing on its own power. There's no safety concerns, reactor prototype was tested for about 4 years without a glitch before being cleared for submarine.

2)It isn't based on Charlie II class. Just a look at both the submarines will tell you it isn't a Charlie. It most probably is a mix of Charlie, Akula & a Indian design.

Clarlie II

Akula

Arihant

above 3 pictures alone would tell you they are 3 different designs.

3)K-15 isn't the only SLBM we would be having. Longer range K-4 will later join Sagarika, it has a range of 3500-4000 KM which is enough for our immediate threats. & 700KM K-4 too can do the job if ever need arises.

4)Russian assistance was most probably limited to making the reactor leak proof. they have loads of experience in that field. Prime Minister acknowledged their assistance, i don't see anything wrong in that.

So, yes when operational it will deter our enemies. If you don't believe in that, you are free to try & test it.

 

[Martian2]

^Load of BS there.

1)Nuclear reactor went critical a year ago.Link

So its already sailing on its own power. There's no security concerns, reactor prototype was tested for about 4 years without a glitch before being cleared for submarine.

The article that I quoted is still correct. You need to read more carefully.

During the Harbor Trial, the reactor went critical but it did not generate the steam and power to operate the submarine. Instead, external steam and power were used.

During the Sea Trials, the reactor will go critical AND be used to power the boat for sailing.

The claim of the reactor going "critical" in your link does not conflict with the article that I posted. No BS at all.

Also, I looked at your pictures for the Charlie and the Arihant. As claimed in the article that I posted, the Arihant does indeed look like a stretched Charlie. Both have the same general hull and conning tower shape. No BS there either.

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"Harbor and Sea Trials

During harbor trials the submarine will be operated using external steam and power, instead of the steam and power generated using the onboard nuclear PWR. The crew will perform trim dives by pumping water in and out of its ballast tanks.

Following successful completion of harbor trials, the submarine's nuclear reactor will be made critical for sea trials and the submarine sailing under its own power."

 

[Rang De]

^My point is that Sea Acceptance Trials are about to start, and submarine is now on its own power. as stated in the link I mentioned.

EDIT: Lol streched Charlie? to me it looks more like shorter Los Angeles class then Charlie. Anyway, bottom line is it isn't a ripoff of old Russian/Soviet submarine, whatever it may "look" like to you.

 

[N3oN]

Is ATV 1 and ATV 2 are same in their capabilities??? or is there any difference

 

[DMLA]

Arihant class is not a stop gap solution , you dont spend 6 Billion USD on 4 stop gap subs
Infact Arihant class will be the sole SSBN subs in Indian Navy till yr 2035 Atleast ,
Thats coz Ship Building Center Vizag has orders extending to yr 2028 with Production of 4 SSBN and 4 SSN , and there could also be Delays
Thats the reason why the design was modified and the Last 2 Subs will be 30% Larger and carry 50% more nukes than first 2 Subs

Also Indian Government Does not begin the Design of a replacement platform , immediately after the induction of last of the previous platform , becoz they are not as far sighted
Hence they will not order the Next SSBN in yr 2020 like they should , infact they will order the replacement ships when Arihant class has completed 15 yrs in service , ie by yr 2028 , Hence it is likely that INS Arihant would be 25 yrs old by the time The replacement SSBN enters service
Hence there would be no time to modify the Arihant into SSGN

You are contradicting your own point! If you say that only the first two subs are of the same design with limited VLS and the rest will be heavily modified (new reactor/ new hull, etc), that clearly indicates a stop gap to me . Anyhow, I am not privy to SBC or L&T acitivities (though I did see the hull sections at L&T's facility when I was in Surat 4 years ago!). Neither am I a member of the IN's decision making class. All my assertions are based on simple logic and common sense. If IN and govt of India decides to do things differently (as per your assertions of sitting on their bu$%s), then that's their choice!
Anyhow, this discussion is useless as it involves IN's strategic assets, the capabilities of which I am sure we will be the last to know about!

 

[ApparentRaceTraitor]

Arihant will not deter China. See section on "Operational Capability" below.


Arihant's limited underwater speed of 24 kts makes it incapable of running away from modern warships once detected. Nuclear subs tend to be noisy when operating at max speeds, Arihant will in all probability be very noisy.

As soon as the submarine is deployed on patrol its movement will be tracked by the Americans and possibly by the Chinese.

With all due respect, that is not the logic a boomer follows. A boomer works alone, and unless the CO is stupid enough will not travel anywhere close to where surface combatants are positioned. A boomer is a strategic asset, the job of venturing close to surface combatants is left to the attack subs. And we wouldn't stick a sub into the water unless we're within the acceptable acoustic signature levels. Arihant is not at the level of an Ohio granted, but it is no bollywood concert in a tin can either.

 

[Archie]

You are contradicting your own point! If you say that only the first two subs are of the same design with limited VLS and the rest will be heavily modified (new reactor/ new hull, etc), that clearly indicates a stop gap to me . Anyhow, I am not privy to SBC or L&T acitivities (though I did see the hull sections at L&T's facility when I was in Surat 4 years ago!). Neither am I a member of the IN's decision making class. All my assertions are based on simple logic and common sense. If IN and govt of India decides to do things differently (as per your assertions of sitting on their bu$%s), then that's their choice!
Anyhow, this discussion is useless as it involves IN's strategic assets, the capabilities of which I am sure we will be the last to know about!

Sirji i am not contradicting my own post
I had said that we will induct 4 Arihant class subs between 2012-20
with First 2 being 6000 Ton size with 4 Launch Tubes and 83 MW Reactor while the last two will have a 7200-8000 ton design , with 6-8 Launch Tubes and 109 MW Reactor
But still all 4 of these subs will be classified as Arihant class
Infact the last 2 Arihant class subs will act as a design base for Indian SSN Project which will weigh around 7000 Ton and use the same 109 MW PWR , but carry 18 Cruise Missiles against 6-8 K4 Ballistic Missiles

I also said that the replacement vessels for the 4 Arihant class Subs will be ordered only around yr 2028 , not in 2020 when the last of the Arihant class sub enters service

 

[sancho]

Arihant will not deter China. See section on "Operational Capability" below.

Of course it will, but as I said, the ballistic missiles must be improved! The important point is, that we will have the possibility to hit targets in eastern China, which we don't have now. That's why deterrence against China means, longer range land based ballistic missiles and SSBNs to get ballistic missiles closer to Chinese eastern coasts. Both will give India the capability to strike back in case of an attack from China.

 

[Martian2]

^My point is that Sea Acceptance Trials are about to start, and submarine is now on its own power. as stated in the link I mentioned.

EDIT: Lol streched Charlie? to me it looks more like shorter Los Angeles class then Charlie. Anyway, bottom line is it isn't a ripoff of old Russian/Soviet submarine, whatever it may "look" like to you.

Your prime minister Singh praised "invaluable [Russian] cooperation."

Any reasonable person would understand the praise as serious Russian help. If the Russians didn't base the Arihant design on the Charlie-II then which submarine are you claiming that they based it upon? Surely, you are not claiming the Russians started from scratch and drafted a completely new and unreliable design.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Arihant

"The INS Arihant is to be the first of the expected five in the class of submarines designed and constructed as a part of the Indian Navy's secretive Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) Project. The submarine is reported to be similar to the Russian Charlie-II class submarine, which India leased from the Soviet Union between 1988 and 1991.[3] Arihant will be more of "a technology demonstrator", rather than a fully operational SSBN according to Admiral Verma.[4]"

Reference in footnote [3]: "^ a b c Von Kospoth, Nicolas (2009-07-28). 'India's INS Arihant Makes First Contact with Water'. Defense Professionals Daily. Retrieved 2009-09-10."

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With all due respect, that is not the logic a boomer follows. A boomer works alone, and unless the CO is stupid enough will not travel anywhere close to where surface combatants are positioned. A boomer is a strategic asset, the job of venturing close to surface combatants is left to the attack subs. And we wouldn't stick a sub into the water unless we're within the acceptable acoustic signature levels. Arihant is not at the level of an Ohio granted, but it is no bollywood concert in a tin can either.

The Arihant is India's first effort at a nuclear submarine. It's noise level should be approximately the same as China's first SSBN, the Type 092 Xia. Everyone has to progress through the same learning curve. I see no reason why India should be special and skip a generation to result in an especially-quiet Arihant SSBN.

In fact, I suspect the Arihant to be noisier than a Type 092 Xia. China had first built the Type 091 Han SSN and put it in service in 1974. The Type 092 Xia SSBN wasn't placed into service until 1981; after China had gained seven years of experience in operating a nuclear submarine.

India hasn't even built a nuclear SSN yet. You have even less experience than when China built the Type 092 Xia SSBN.

 

[IND151]

I Dont think whether u know it or not but , the design of Arihant class was modified in 2009 , after the launch of First Sub
, INS Arhidaman was way too forward into the construction and could not be altered ie it would be of the same size as Arihant , but the last 2 subs will have the upgraded design , hence the 2 yr delay in there induction

The Last 2 Arihant class Subs are expected to weigh between 7200-7800 Tons(Though some reports even suggest a 8000 Ton+ Design) and carry 6-8 Launch Tubes EACH CARRYING 1 K4 SLBM, compared to the first 2 Subs which will have only 4 Launch Tubes and carry 3x4 K15 SLBM
These Subs will also carry a New 109 MW PWR using 40% enriched uranium fuel; 1 turbine , 1 shaft; 1 7-bladed, high-skew propeller COMPARED to the first 2 Subs which carry 83 MW Reactor

kindly give link 5gdedh

 

[Roybot]

The Ariahnt is India's first effort at a nuclear submarine. It's noise level should be approximately the same as China's first SSBN, the Type 092 Xia. Everyone has to progress through the same learning curve. I see no reason why India should be special and skip a generation to result in an especially-quiet Arihant SSBN.

In fact, I suspect the Arihant to be noisier than a Type 092 Xia. China had first built the Type 091 Han SSN and put it in service in 1974. The Type 092 Xia SSBN wasn't placed into service until 1981; after China had gained seven years of experience in operating a nuclear submarine.

India hasn't even built a nuclear SSN yet. You have even less experience than when China built the Type 092 Xia SSBN.

Thats a strange logic. On one hand you are saying that India got help from Russia, and then you go on to say that since its India's first attempt, it will basically be shyte.

So which one is it? Is it India's first attempt, or is it India's first nuke submarine built with Russian help. Cause once Russian help comes into the picture your learning curve theory goes out of the window.

 

[Martian2]

Thats a strange logic. On one hand you are saying that India got help from Russia, and then you go on to say that since its India's first attempt, it will basically be shyte.

So which one is it? Is it India's first attempt, or is it India's first nuke submarine built with Russian help. Cause once Russian help comes into the picture your learning curve theory goes out of the window.

I'm actually making a very nuanced point. Without Russian help, India won't be able to build a nuclear submarine for another twenty years. Hence, your prime minister's effusive praise of the Russians.

With Russian help, they will only design a crude prototype for you. This will allow the Russians to maximize their earnings. They will walk you through each generation. Skipping a generation means lost profits.

 

[ApparentRaceTraitor]

Your prime minister Singh praised "invaluable [Russian] cooperation."

Any reasonable person would understand the praise as serious Russian help. If the Russians didn't base the Arihant design on the Charlie-II then which submarine are you claiming that they based it upon? Surely, you are not claiming the Russians started from scratch and drafted a completely new and unreliable design.

INS Arihant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The INS Arihant is to be the first of the expected five in the class of submarines designed and constructed as a part of the Indian Navy's secretive Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) Project. The submarine is reported to be similar to the Russian Charlie-II class submarine, which India leased from the Soviet Union between 1988 and 1991.[3] Arihant will be more of "a technology demonstrator", rather than a fully operational SSBN according to Admiral Verma.[4]"

Reference in footnote [3]: "^ a b c Von Kospoth, Nicolas (2009-07-28). 'India's INS Arihant Makes First Contact with Water'. Defense Professionals Daily. Retrieved 2009-09-10."

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The Arihant is India's first effort at a nuclear submarine. It's noise level should be approximately the same as China's first SSBN, the Type 092 Xia. Everyone has to progress through the same learning curve. I see no reason why India should be special and skip a generation to result in an especially-quiet Arihant SSBN.

In fact, I suspect the Arihant to be noisier than a Type 092 Xia. China had first built the Type 091 Han SSN and put it in service in 1974. The Type 092 Xia SSBN wasn't placed into service until 1981; after China had gained seven years of experience in operating a nuclear submarine.

India hasn't even built a nuclear SSN yet. You have even less experience than when China built the Type 092 Xia SSBN.

I doubt that. IN has been operating subs enough to realize acoustical signatures can mean the difference b/w life and death, and as absurd as it sounds, it is the one arm of the armed forces that actually has it's **** together. But for now let's just agree to disagree on this and wait for it to hit the seas.